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Old 08-02-2012, 11:26 AM   #1
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Death wobble frustration is at an all time high PLEASE HELP ME FIND THIS HARDWARE

I lifted the jeep with a rc 4" lift (I already know) I swapped out the stock track bar with an adjustable and when I went to tighten the nut that goes to the axel the flag but broke and now I cant tighten it fully do until I get that tightened I can't really blame my wobble on anything else. Please please please help me find this hardware I need I've called and played games with the dealer I've looked online. I feel like this is something I can buy at home depot on my own any and all help is so appreciated. Driving my jeep hasnt been fun since the lift because I get wobble literally everytime I drive it

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Old 08-02-2012, 11:31 AM   #2
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:40 AM   #3
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Old 08-02-2012, 01:43 PM   #4
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I think it's a M12x1.75x80 bolt you can get at an Ace hardware. Grade 8 if possible.
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Old 08-02-2012, 02:58 PM   #5
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There's no reason the dealer does not have the factory bolt with the flange nut. I did the same thing, broke mine but because of all the DW it egg shaped the hole on the bracket to the axle and the Trac Bar Bushing so I had to drill both 1 size larger. Anyway I used a standard bolt, washer and nut and it's been tight ever since no issues. It's just a little bit of a B$%^& to get a wrench in that little spot to hold the nut while you tighten but it can be done.
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Old 08-02-2012, 03:00 PM   #6
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I think it's a M12x1.75x80 bolt you can get at an Ace hardware. Grade 8 if possible.
That's a metric bolt size so it will have to be a 10.9 or 12.9 strength rating, Grade 8 is strictly an SAE (inch) size strength rating.
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:32 PM   #7
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The only thing that didn't Match up was it was 75 intstead of 80 I hope I doesn't matter to badly I just bought it thank for the help guys
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:32 PM   #8
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That's a metric bolt size so it will have to be a 10.9 or 12.9 strength rating, Grade 8 is strictly an SAE (inch) size strength rating.
Right, Jerry. Wasn't thinking right for a sec. 10.9 would be grade 8 equivalent in metric. Just be sure to torque it to about 74 ft/lbs.
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Old 08-03-2012, 07:46 AM   #9
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Right, Jerry. Wasn't thinking right for a sec. 10.9 would be grade 8 equivalent in metric. Just be sure to torque it to about 74 ft/lbs.

Shouldn't that be 100 Nm
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:36 PM   #10
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I paid 106 dollars to get a shop to put this on. No they didn't kiss me first either it stopped the obvious wobble but now I think I need an alignment because there's still a lot of vibration at like 50mph.., now time for a steering stabilizer?
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Old 08-03-2012, 02:43 PM   #11
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No the cure for that 50 mph issue is not a new steering stabilizer. That is not what a steering stabilizer (actually damper) does. A speed sensitive issue is nearly always nothing more than a tire problem.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:52 PM   #12
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It's it's a PITA without the flag on the nut. I ground down an open end wrench to get in there. But I've also bought them at the dealer - bolt and nut.

Or - make your own - weld a flag on it - I've used a piece of gas rod or sheet metal - get creative.
No welder? JB weld one on.

If it's loose it can easily cause DW. But that's not the only cause.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:22 PM   #13
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I have had flags break off from their nuts before but I have still usually been able to fit in a small combination box/open end wrench into that opening to hold the nut. And once I upgrade that particular nut and bolt to a hardened/stronger version, I don't like to tack weld a flag to the new hardened nut because the heat from welding can ruin its heat treatment. The lack of a flag on that particular nut hasn't really been a serious issue for me.
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:02 PM   #14
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Be careful with the 10.9 bolt as I sheared mine off a couple days ago and the torque wrench was only set to 70 ft lbs. Hopefully it was just a bad bolt. It does not matter as my Currie Heavy duty adjustable track bar was ordered through Savvy this morning.
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:38 PM   #15
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Be careful with the 10.9 bolt as I sheared mine off a couple days ago and the torque wrench was only set to 70 ft lbs. Hopefully it was just a bad bolt. It does not matter as my Currie Heavy duty adjustable track bar was ordered through Savvy this morning.
If you were torquing the factory 10mm bolt to 70 ft lbs, I'm not surprised it broke. 7/16's is considerably larger and that is about right for it, not a 10mm.
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Old 08-04-2012, 07:04 AM   #16
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If you are still getting vibes at 50, next step is check/set your alignment if you haven't since the lift. Then balance the tires.
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:17 AM   #17
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THE important thing with that bolt isn't so much how tight it is, but the holes it goes through. If the holes are warbled out, it'll still move no matter how tight you get it.

Then you have to repair the holes. Not difficult to fix the front one, but the rear is a real PITA.

3 or 4 years ago I developed a bushing kit to repair the holes - no welding - I bought a lathe to make the hardened steel bushings.

Fixed several DW's successfully, then offered the kits on here - bushings, drill, bolt, nut etc. at cost - $35. 15 minutes installation time, no special tools except a drill motor.

So many yo yo's on here criticized and said it never would work (without even trying it.) I think 3 did buy them. 2 reported back they worked great. The other - who knows.

I gave up, sold most of the rest of the kits on Ebay for $75 each then sold the lathe. Never again!

About 6 months ago I repaired my Cherokee with one.

It taught me a real lesson - most of the folks on here have no understanding of how things work. The saying "you can lead a horse to water but ---" is true.

If you look at it you can see the stress puts the bolt in shear, the nut simply holds it in place. The strength of the nut isn't critical unless you over tighten it. The stress is not trying to pull the bolt out, it's trying to snap it in the middle. The bolt itself is more than strong enough - bolt breakage is not a problem - unless overtightened. The bolt is hardened to prevent the hardened trackbar bushing from wearing it thin.

But the thin brackets it goes through get the wear - the holes elongate.
You can weld the front hole shut and re-drill it, or weld a washer over it, (lots of "fixes" on the internet.) But the rear hole is near impossible to fix. Then the bolt is held steady at only one end. It only works for a short time. That's why my kit.

Hardware "store bought" replacement metric bolts have too long a thread. The threaded portion ends up in the bracket's hole - acting like a saw blade cutting the hole even larger. At best it's a temporary fix. Dealers have the right bolt and flag nut - about $10.
Or you can get a longer bolt with the smooth shank the right length, then trim it to fit.

The worst one I've encountered - because the bolt was tightened "gorilla tight" it broke in the middle, slightly down from the head.
There was enough left inside that it couldn't be driven out the back. I had to cut the nut off, drive a little out the back, then cut off the stub in several stages. While trying not to melt the poly bushing on the new trackbar. CUT, DOUSE, WHACK, CUT, DOUSE over and over. A PITA!

Without my plasma cutter it would have been a bigger problem. It probably would have required cutting off the old bracket, then fabbing a new one. Doable, but lots of work. And worse yet - it was all free for a friend!

Years ago the Jeeping community didn't have near as many scizzorbills. We made things, didn't buy them. "Store bought" was embarrassing. That changed with the YJ.
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Old 08-04-2012, 09:53 AM   #18
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THE important thing with that bolt isn't so much how tight it is, but the holes it goes through. If the holes are warbled out, it'll still move no matter how tight you get it.

Then you have to repair the holes. Not difficult to fix the front one, but the rear is a real PITA.

3 or 4 years ago I developed a bushing kit to repair the holes - no welding - I bought a lathe to make the hardened steel bushings.

Fixed several DW's successfully, then offered the kits on here - bushings, drill, bolt, nut etc. at cost - $35. 15 minutes installation time, no special tools except a drill motor.

So many yo yo's on here criticized and said it never would work (without even trying it.) I think 3 did buy them. 2 reported back they worked great. The other - who knows.

I gave up, sold most of the rest of the kits on Ebay for $75 each then sold the lathe. Never again!

About 6 months ago I repaired my Cherokee with one.

It taught me a real lesson - most of the folks on here have no understanding of how things work. The saying "you can lead a horse to water but ---" is true.

If you look at it you can see the stress puts the bolt in shear, the nut simply holds it in place. The strength of the nut isn't critical unless you over tighten it. The stress is not trying to pull the bolt out, it's trying to snap it in the middle. The bolt itself is more than strong enough - bolt breakage is not a problem - unless overtightened. The bolt is hardened to prevent the hardened trackbar bushing from wearing it thin.

But the thin brackets it goes through get the wear - the holes elongate.
You can weld the front hole shut and re-drill it, or weld a washer over it, (lots of "fixes" on the internet.) But the rear hole is near impossible to fix. Then the bolt is held steady at only one end. It only works for a short time. That's why my kit.

Hardware "store bought" replacement metric bolts have too long a thread. The threaded portion ends up in the bracket's hole - acting like a saw blade cutting the hole even larger. At best it's a temporary fix. Dealers have the right bolt and flag nut - about $10.
Or you can get a longer bolt with the smooth shank the right length, then trim it to fit.

The worst one I've encountered - because the bolt was tightened "gorilla tight" it broke in the middle, slightly down from the head.
There was enough left inside that it couldn't be driven out the back. I had to cut the nut off, drive a little out the back, then cut off the stub in several stages. While trying not to melt the poly bushing on the new trackbar. CUT, DOUSE, WHACK, CUT, DOUSE over and over. A PITA!

Without my plasma cutter it would have been a bigger problem. It probably would have required cutting off the old bracket, then fabbing a new one. Doable, but lots of work. And worse yet - it was all free for a friend!

Years ago the Jeeping community didn't have near as many scizzorbills. We made things, didn't buy them. "Store bought" was embarrassing. That changed with the YJ.

You are perpetuating the biggest myth on the internet. If there was a single scintilla of merit to your initial premise, there is not any way possible for control arms to stay tight on the front lowers. It IS about that simple.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:18 AM   #19
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I definitely still have wobble. I bought 4 super swamped tsl's there was one that was put in the rear that wouldn't balance 100% they said it was close but not 100. Also I blatenly know I need an alignment even though I just paid to have one 3 weeks ago. My steering wheel is slightly off right now. But would a tire in the rear and a slightly off alignment fix my problem? This seems never ending
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Old 08-04-2012, 08:00 PM   #20
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Please any and all help is still appreciated i need this fixed without paying 95 dollars an hoir
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Old 08-04-2012, 08:18 PM   #21
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I would ditch the swampers consider some mtr's or bfg's... more round, no flat spotting. even the radial swampers have issues..
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Old 08-04-2012, 08:32 PM   #22
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I would ditch the swampers consider some mtr's or bfg's... more round, no flat spotting. even the radial swampers have issues..
This, and go bfg km2's
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:02 AM   #23
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x3 with swapping tires. You do your own alignment and off steering wheel fix.
Basic Jeep Front End Alignment
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:28 AM   #24
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I definitely still have wobble. I bought 4 super swamped tsl's there was one that was put in the rear that wouldn't balance 100% they said it was close but not 100. Also I blatenly know I need an alignment even though I just paid to have one 3 weeks ago. My steering wheel is slightly off right now. But would a tire in the rear and a slightly off alignment fix my problem? This seems never ending
It's hard to say. I've had DW where an alignment fixed it. I have 2 slightly bent wheels where when they are in the front they give me a slight wobble at 45mph but never go into DW and then above 45mph the slight wobble goes away. I do however know that your wheels need to be balanced 100% but if 1 was just a pinch off but set in the rear you shouldn't have any issues. Is it a wobble or DW with the new tires? If it is just a wobble and not DW like Jerry said earlier high speed vibes are usually associated with the tires/wheels, I'd check the balance again and make sure that 1 wheel gets balanced 100%. Have you mad sure nothing is bent in the front suspension or loose? How about that trac bar? At least remove it and make sure the bolt hole in the bushing and mounting bracket is not elongating as said earlier. I only say that because since you drove it a bit with the wobble before it was 100% tightened it may have elongated.
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:51 AM   #25
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Another thing to check , is to be sure the TB is snug in the mount. I added a few washers to mine to make sure everything was snug, before tightening the bolt. I know the kit doesn't come with dropped pitman arm, but make sure the TB mounting points are parallel with the drag link mounting points.
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Old 08-05-2012, 06:04 AM   #26
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???????

""""You are perpetuating the biggest myth on the internet. If there was a single scintilla of merit to your initial premise, there is not any way possible for control arms to stay tight on the front lowers. It IS about that simple. """"""

Control arms?
If you read what I said, it's about the TRACKBAR, the mount, and how the holes in the mount warble out!
No mention of the control arms!!

Trackbar, Panhard, locator, cross link etc - depending on what the mfgr calls it.

But obviously if you let the control arms get loose and flop around you'll have troubles too.
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:24 AM   #27
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???????

""""You are perpetuating the biggest myth on the internet. If there was a single scintilla of merit to your initial premise, there is not any way possible for control arms to stay tight on the front lowers. It IS about that simple. """"""

Control arms?
If you read what I said, it's about the TRACKBAR, the mount, and how the holes in the mount warble out!
No mention of the control arms!!

Trackbar, Panhard, locator, cross link etc - depending on what the mfgr calls it.

But obviously if you let the control arms get loose and flop around you'll have troubles too.
Again, it matters not where on the TJ the bolt is, it only matters that it is tight, stays tight and the bolt remains in tension to keep it from seeing shear forces. The instant the bolt shank comes into shear, the connection has failed and that doesn't matter where it's located.

Again, if hole size was as critical as you make it out to be, NO TJ would ever be able to keep the front lower control arms tight because the bolts reside in SLOTS which are way oversize holes.

This is a chicken or egg thing to most folks and they get a bit confused when in reality, if the connection is maintained properly it will never wallow out the mounting holes. If anyone doubts that, there are literally hundreds of bolted connections on the TJ. Go loosen any or all of them to just barely snug and see how long before failure happens.

The tension of the bolt shank when stretched by tightening it provides clamping force to the faying surfaces to stabilize the connection and prevent movement. It is the friction developed when the bolt comes into tension that is key and very little else within reason.

I can take any front TJ trackbar, make a new axle side mount for it out of 1/4" plate, remove the old one and put the new one in place. I can have the holes machined so precisely that they are a mild press fit.

If the bolt is not torqued to the proper value to stabilize the joint and driven with the bolt loose at any time, the hole will get wallowed out and the connection will fail. So again, torque is key, not hole size.
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:04 PM   #28
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It's hard to say. I've had DW where an alignment fixed it. I have 2 slightly bent wheels where when they are in the front they give me a slight wobble at 45mph but never go into DW and then above 45mph the slight wobble goes away. I do however know that your wheels need to be balanced 100% but if 1 was just a pinch off but set in the rear you shouldn't have any issues. Is it a wobble or DW with the new tires? If it is just a wobble and not DW like Jerry said earlier high speed vibes are usually associated with the tires/wheels, I'd check the balance again and make sure that 1 wheel gets balanced 100%. Have you mad sure nothing is bent in the front suspension or loose? How about that trac bar? At least remove it and make sure the bolt hole in the bushing and mounting bracket is not elongating as said earlier. I only say that because since you drove it a bit with the wobble before it was 100% tightened it may have elongated.
I paid someone 106 dollars to use a torch and swap bolts and I replaced it with a grade 8 bolt like everyone said I feel like the person that did it wouldn't have told me if the hole was egg shaped they would just do what I asked which was replace the bolt. It's a snug fit now for sure but maybe since I did the track bar myself it's not centered properly? I didn't have to use a one along or anything I chocked it up to good luck I got it to line up easily and from what I measured it seemed fine on both sides. I didn't use to much force on the track bar itself where the bolt is to make it longer and shorter. Could that be contributing to something?
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:09 PM   #29
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Your keywords here - """if the connection was maintained properly."""

Normally the trackbar bolt is tight - and the holeS are barely bigger than the bolt, so it fit's tight. No problem there.

Normally the hardened sleeve inside the bushing pivots against the smooth shank of the bolt! The bolt itself should not move, the movement is between the shank and the sleeve.

For some reason sometimes that connection "grabs" a little - dirt, rust, grit etc. It turns the bolt making it looser than it should be. (Notice it doesn't get lubed.) Now as the trackbar moves up and down, and pulls sideways pulls/moves the bolt, it begins to warble out the holes.

Once the holes become elongated the bolt slides back and forth even more, elongating the holes further. The TB can no longer do it's job - to hold the axle steady.

Even Jerry has posted how to correct the elongated hole - his method is to weld a washer over the hole with the correct sized hole.

But - that addresses the front hole only, not the rear hole. That fix works for awhile, then you have to do it again.

Sure, it's possible to cut the thin bracket off and fab or buy a new one and weld it on. I've done it several times.

But that doesn't help the average DIY'er without the tools or welder to do it. I was seeking an easy solution that the average guy could do in his driveway in a few minutes, - thus the kit. I provided everything except the drill motor and extension cord.

There was/is many posts requesting help for DW. There are many causes of DW, tires, alignment, loose steering etc. A loose Trackbar bolt is only one.

Obviously if the holes are not warbled out the DW problem is from something else.

In my posts and ads about the kit I always suggested one remove the bolt, swing the arm down and see if the bolt fits tight in the holes. If they were elongated or enlarged, the kit would help.

I'm surprised - I guess you haven't done many control arms by your statements. Or you always had employees do it and never watched.

The bolts that mount the lower control arms go into slots, yes. But offset keeper" washers hold the bolt in place, preventing it from flopping around in the slot.

Stock and aftermarket arms use them.

You even can buy cam-type keepers from the dealer to help with the caster - or make them.

As far as was suggested on this thread re: the trackbar bolt - using a larger bolt - that would mean drilling the hardened sleeve in the TB. That would be difficult for the average DIYer - a drill will overhead and ruin the rubber - it would have to be done with reamers. Most DIYers don't have the expensive reamers

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Old 08-05-2012, 01:18 PM   #30
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Ok well let me say this there are three jeeps in my family and everyone of them has been susepted death wobble. Mine was tires balding out o alignment and sterring stabilizer got soft.my dads was tires,shocks,and sterring stabilizer. My brothers was worn tires. I say these were the problem cause we of ccourse went rounds with different repairs and these are the only solutions that helped.now with that said i dont think death wobble can be truly diagnosed. There are so many variables. Like some say control arm bushings. Well mine are bout shot all the way around and i dont have death wobble. Some say alignment but my alignment is out a fair bit and still no death wobble. Some say rim backspacing but i went from fatory rims to aftermarket rims that have a way different backspacing and again no wobble. So i say its a trial and error repair people have been doing since the dawn of the wrangler.

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