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Old 01-11-2013, 12:52 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Powder Monkey View Post
Parting it out might be your best bet. Could take some time, but you 'should' come out ok. Frame swap might be quite pricey & if the tub is bent look for more headaches. Also, may want to consider getting a second opinion before pulling the trigger.
Yeah, I'm still considering everything right now but I may take it somewhere else and see what they say.

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Old 01-11-2013, 05:26 AM   #62
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Carparts.com ! You will be able to find a frame and tub for about $1500.00 . I just helped my buddy buy two jeeps so he could build one. So far he has 4k into it and I have started selling parts off the donor for him. He should make $100.00 off the donor over and above the purchase price. It's intimidating to think about taking on a project of this magnitude, but at the end of the day it's just some bolts and heavy lifting.

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Old 01-11-2013, 08:09 AM   #63
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You should just do the frame swap and let the body tub fall as it will. Really if all you want is for it to be safe a couple weekends and you will learn a lot. The body will not really impact safety and it shouldn't look worse than it does now. You really just need to make it road worthy. Then you can deal with anything else you dont like over time.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:14 AM   #64
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:30 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by KILRIK View Post
*Rebuilt title

It went through inspection and passed. We talked to some people that have done rebuilds and they said that just because it's a rebuilt isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I made a mistake, now I'm trying to fix that mistake and ask for advice.
I was thinking this was a SALVAGE title the whole time! I didn't see WHEN you bought the vehicle but hopefully it was recently as time is a major factor.

Show this part to your parents if they are wondering about legal recourse. READ: I do not certify these statements, make guarantee of legal outcome, or express the knowledge of your personal case or state of residence statutes. This does not constitute legal advice.

Actually, all certified Rebuilders (laws and regulations vary by state, look up TN) need to adhere to standards to deem a car REBUILT; also known as "returned to original operating condition". If the state did an inspection to place the vehicle back on the road, and these unsafe conditions existed at that time, then the state's certifying authority could potentially be in trouble. I hope everyone here sincerely believes in the power of a signature..

What you need to do if you choose to proceed legally is obtain an affadavit from the place you received notice that the frame was not safe; BONUS if they are a certified Rebuilder for the state. Take that, go to another location - get another opinion - get an affadavit if they match. Then, find out who the certifying authority (the actual inspector) was and place your complaints there. Remember... documents, signatures, and photographs are worth more than gold. Document all the correspondance with EVERYONE and keep a good record. I think it will take time, but you could recover some money for damages. In the interim, save all your receipts for EVERYTHING to place the vehicles frame in "original operating condition". In my OPINION the complaint would be:

Damages: Consumer acquired unnecessary financial impact resulting from a Rebuilt Title being issued to a vehicle deemed not safe for road travel by industry professionals. Consumer lost use of the vehicle during the repair/diagnosis period. Consumer's personal safety was severly jeopardized as a direct result of the certifying authorities negligence.
Causation: The state issued a Rebuilt Title to an unsafe vehicle. As a direct result, you, acting in a normal manner as a consumer, completed a purchase of a vehicle legally assumed to be safe and operable.
Negligence: Multiple legally obtained affadavits from industry professionals deemed the vehicle is unsafe due to X, Y, Z conditions and the Rebuilt title was incorrectly issued. It is assumed beyond a reasonable doubt that an incomplete inspection of the vehicle was perfomed by the certifying authority, resulting in unavoidable expense and safety hazard to the consumer.
Dist. Liability: *it should be assumed that the defense will state a case of "buyer beware" for a used vehicle. But, a normal consumer is not assumed to have detailed knowledge of vehicle safety or how to do a visual examination of safety related items. This is not a warranty issue or an issue that is susceptible to "no warranty" claims like "as-is, as-seen, as-shown". If the vehicle was known by the seller to be unsafe for road travel, it should have been disclosed during the Rebuild inspection. >50% Liability lies with the Certified Rebuilder and certifying authority.

TIME: I said TIME is a major factor because the main thing you have going against you is that this whole situation becomes a "he said-she said". You left the place of purchase, the vehicle has been in your legal possession, and it could be stated (ESPECIALLY being an offroad vehicle that has been modified to GO offroad) that you caused the damages (in any way). Did you take any pictures of the vehicle showing the gap in the tub and the hood????


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I'm really considering parting it out and then keeping some of the parts I would like to put on the new Jeep. Would this be the best route or should I give a frame swap a shot? My only concern with the frame swap is the body not falling back into place.
Stop. It's not the best route and you know it. Everyone makes mistakes, and half the people saying "you should have..." probably have made them as well; I certainly have. Go with the most cost effective means of repair, a swap is probably that. If you do a frame swap, document the cost and total amount of hours it took.

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Originally Posted by Powder Monkey View Post
Parting it out might be your best bet. Could take some time, but you 'should' come out ok. Frame swap might be quite pricey & if the tub is bent look for more headaches. Also, may want to consider getting a second opinion before pulling the trigger.
It takes a lot of time and space to do so; sounds like you're a busy guy. I assume you don't have another car.

DEFINITELY get 2-3 written quotes for frame straigtening.

Deal with the mistake, deal with your parents, and learn something in the process.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:33 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAABseanSCANIA

I was thinking this was a SALVAGE title the whole time! I didn't see WHEN you bought the vehicle but hopefully it was recently as time is a major factor.

Show this part to your parents if they are wondering about legal recourse. READ: I do not certify these statements, make guarantee of legal outcome, or express the knowledge of your personal case or state of residence statutes. This does not constitute legal advice.

Actually, all certified Rebuilders (laws and regulations vary by state, look up TN) need to adhere to standards to deem a car REBUILT; also known as "returned to original operating condition". If the state did an inspection to place the vehicle back on the road, and these unsafe conditions existed at that time, then the state's certifying authority could potentially be in trouble. I hope everyone here sincerely believes in the power of a signature..

What you need to do if you choose to proceed legally is obtain an affadavit from the place you received notice that the frame was not safe; BONUS if they are a certified Rebuilder for the state. Take that, go to another location - get another opinion - get an affadavit if they match. Then, find out who the certifying authority (the actual inspector) was and place your complaints there. Remember... documents, signatures, and photographs are worth more than gold. Document all the correspondance with EVERYONE and keep a good record. I think it will take time, but you could recover some money for damages. In the interim, save all your receipts for EVERYTHING to place the vehicles frame in "original operating condition". In my OPINION the complaint would be:

Damages: Consumer acquired unnecessary financial impact resulting from a Rebuilt Title being issued to a vehicle deemed not safe for road travel by industry professionals. Consumer lost use of the vehicle during the repair/diagnosis period. Consumer's personal safety was severly jeopardized as a direct result of the certifying authorities negligence.
Causation: The state issued a Rebuilt Title to an unsafe vehicle. As a direct result, you, acting in a normal manner as a consumer, completed a purchase of a vehicle legally assumed to be safe and operable.
Negligence: Multiple legally obtained affadavits from industry professionals deemed the vehicle is unsafe due to X, Y, Z conditions and the Rebuilt title was incorrectly issued. It is assumed beyond a reasonable doubt that an incomplete inspection of the vehicle was perfomed by the certifying authority, resulting in unavoidable expense and safety hazard to the consumer.
Dist. Liability: *it should be assumed that the defense will state a case of "buyer beware" for a used vehicle. But, a normal consumer is not assumed to have detailed knowledge of vehicle safety or how to do a visual examination of safety related items. This is not a warranty issue or an issue that is susceptible to "no warranty" claims like "as-is, as-seen, as-shown". If the vehicle was known by the seller to be unsafe for road travel, it should have been disclosed during the Rebuild inspection. >50% Liability lies with the Certified Rebuilder and certifying authority.

TIME: I said TIME is a major factor because the main thing you have going against you is that this whole situation becomes a "he said-she said". You left the place of purchase, the vehicle has been in your legal possession, and it could be stated (ESPECIALLY being an offroad vehicle that has been modified to GO offroad) that you caused the damages (in any way). Did you take any pictures of the vehicle showing the gap in the tub and the hood????

Stop. It's not the best route and you know it. Everyone makes mistakes, and half the people saying "you should have..." probably have made them as well; I certainly have. Go with the most cost effective means of repair, a swap is probably that. If you do a frame swap, document the cost and total amount of hours it took.

It takes a lot of time and space to do so; sounds like you're a busy guy. I assume you don't have another car.

DEFINITELY get 2-3 written quotes for frame straigtening.

Deal with the mistake, deal with your parents, and learn something in the process.
In oregon salvaged cars go to auction and anyone can buy them, fix and resale them.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:48 AM   #67
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Sorry about the Intro to Law lesson but I feel for you and your parents. This stuff happens all the time with "certifying authorities"; so a small case like your Jeep isn't an oddity. The truth is everyone gets lazy sometimes, even inspectors.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:50 AM   #68
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In oregon salvaged cars go to auction and anyone can buy them, fix and resale them.
Nice. That's quite the privilege. In a lot of states becoming a rebuilder isn't worth it because of the surety bonds and whatnot. Do you have to take them to a shop or State Department to be inspected after you rebuild it in Oregon?
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:55 AM   #69
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In oregon salvaged cars go to auction and anyone can buy them, fix and resale them.

Also, there is no recourse on a sold "as is" vehicle, which ALL used vehicles without aftermarket warranty or contract between seller/buyer are. I've seen some vehicles that were dangerously patched together for sale around Portland.



KILRIK: Why don't you plan the three ways out of this mess that have been discussed, enter the data for each into it's own spreadsheet, total up the debits and credits, see which one nets you what you want for the least amount of acceptable loss, and go from there? You can think and talk about it all until it stops making sense, or you can get some facts down on paper (or screen) in front of you and make an intelligent logic based decision on this vehicle.

I've given you input on what I would do based on how I approach my personal affairs. I parted out a race prepped Subaru with a grenaded transmission three years ago. I still have parts in my garage that I haven't sold. I lost 5k less than I would have lost by selling the car outright as it was. Either way I was going to lose money on the deal. I'm not stating you should part out your Jeep, because I don't believe you should. I'm stating that I found the way out that lost me the least money to get what I needed out of the deal. I'm only suggesting you do the same. Good luck.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:58 AM   #70
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Sorry about the Intro to Law lesson but I feel for you and your parents. This stuff happens all the time with "certifying authorities"; so a small case like your Jeep isn't an oddity. The truth is everyone gets lazy sometimes, even inspectors.
Ok, this is my last .02 on the matter. A vehicle holds a salvaged title for one reason. It was damaged beyond repair. Said vehicle goes through auction where people bid on it at a low cost( Gypsies) and buy the vehicle for resale. I can assure you theres no way in hell they are going to spend alot of money to fix it correctly. They make it presentable and target people not in the know. In his case, its very hard to tell if a frame is diamoned. That being said, the ONLYway this muchacho is buying a rig with a salvaged title is if i see it at auction and assess the damage then i fix it myself. There were so many red flags on this jeep besides the branded title. Yeah i feel sorry for the kid, and as far as im concerned his dad has no right to be pissed at him especially if he looked at it also. If he wants to keep it, buy a frame that hopefully is square then transfer everything. Personally, id pull the frame around then line up all the panels, but i have the capability and the resources for that.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:51 AM   #71
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Thanks for the lawyer lesson but the biggest problem I think I would run into would be WHEN it was wrecked. It could have been fine when it was inspected and then it was wrecked afterwards. That would be my first problem, also the guy we bought it from never had it registered in his name and had an open title so we technically bought it off then owner before him.

Talked to my parents this morning after I read all of the new posts. They really don't want to part out because we just don't have the time (I'll make time if it will help get my money back) to do something like that. I'm really considering the frame+body swap mentioned above IF I can do it for that price.

If I were to JUST do a frame swap, would I be able to have the body worked on to get it straightened out or would I just have to hope it falls back into place?

Last option would be to sell it outright. What do you guys think I could get for it if I went this route? 83,000 miles, Atlas II transfer case, Teraflex lift kit, SYE, DC Shafts, Hard and Soft Top, 35" tires.

I really wouldn't want to go the selling route because I would be missing out on a good upgraded Jeep and if I parted out, I could at least keep SOME parts I would want on the new Jeep.

The guy at the body shop is a good friend of ours so my mom is going to run these options by him. He suggested to just trade it in but my mom doesn't want to feel guilty if the place puts it back on the lot, someone buys it and then gets killed in a wreck.

I'm about to head in to work but once I get off I'll run some numbers and see which is the best route.
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:38 PM   #72
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Also, there is no recourse on a sold "as is" vehicle, which ALL used vehicles without aftermarket warranty or contract between seller/buyer are. I've seen some vehicles that were dangerously patched together for sale around Portland.

KILRIK: Why don't you plan the three ways out of this mess that have been discussed, enter the data for each into it's own spreadsheet, total up the debits and credits, see which one nets you what you want for the least amount of acceptable loss, and go from there? You can think and talk about it all until it stops making sense, or you can get some facts down on paper (or screen) in front of you and make an intelligent logic based decision on this vehicle.

I've given you input on what I would do based on how I approach my personal affairs. I parted out a race prepped Subaru with a grenaded transmission three years ago. I still have parts in my garage that I haven't sold. I lost 5k less than I would have lost by selling the car outright as it was. Either way I was going to lose money on the deal. I'm not stating you should part out your Jeep, because I don't believe you should. I'm stating that I found the way out that lost me the least money to get what I needed out of the deal. I'm only suggesting you do the same. Good luck.
So after reading through the thread, this is about the most sound advise you could have been given.
There's a point where you have to stop thinking "if I sell it I'm gonna lose a modded jeep". Modded jeeps aren't hard to find, what is, is a safe reliable vehicle that is less than 3-5 years old. This is my .02, and IF I were you(and this is coming from some very close to your age) I would do as suggested. Run the numbers. Words will lie to you, and deceive you, but the numbers, they'll tell it to you straight. If I lose more $$ keeping it, it's not worth it, set your budget, not what you're willing to spend, but what you are ABLE to spend. Then make the spreadsheet and you'll know what to do.
Hope it all works out brother, we've all made a small mistake before, but it's only a learning experience.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:28 PM   #73
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In reality if that jeep was in good condition you would've paid a lot more than 8k for it. Even if you spend another 4k fixing her up you would still be under it's value IMO. So you didn't get the steal you thought you did...big deal. So fix it up and you'll have a solid badass rig.

BTW, parting it out and keeping the best parts for your next jeep won't get you your 8k back. So it's kinda pointless and probably more expensive if you factor in buying another jeep. If you part it out you have to sell everything to even get remotely close. People buying your parts will be looking for a deal and won't pay retail...that's just how it goes.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:51 PM   #74
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Before I even made it home, my parents had talked to the guy at the autobody shop (he's a good friend of ours) and they decided without my input that they were going to sell it. No questions asked, and I really don't have much say at this point because they made up their mind.

I would LOVE to keep the Jeep but I just can't afford 4K to fix it up at this point since I'm already paying back the price of the Jeep.

Sorry for flip flopping so much trying to figure all of this out. Thanks for all of the help and maybe sometime in the future you'll see me on here with a new Jeep.
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:44 AM   #75
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Bummer, but prolly for the best. Hopefully you'll be able to recoup the cost & your parents won't make you get a kia
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:31 AM   #76
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... they decided without my input that they were going to sell it. No questions asked ...


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Old 01-12-2013, 12:01 PM   #77
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Bummer, but prolly for the best. Hopefully you'll be able to recoup the cost & your parents won't make you get a kia
My father wasn't too happy with the whole Jeep thing. Now he has in his head that all Jeep's are piles of crap that get terrible gas mileage and they are just a fun vehicle.
I basically put it this way to him. If I get a sports car, I'm going to sink money into it, go fast, get tickets and I'll be out more money. Then when I go to sell it, it won't be worth hardly anything.

With the Jeep, I can do most of the work myself, parts aren't OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive like a foreign car and they hold their resale value.

He hasn't argued with me since...

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Old 01-12-2013, 12:37 PM   #78
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Before I even made it home, my parents had talked to the guy at the autobody shop (he's a good friend of ours) and they decided without my input that they were going to sell it. No questions asked, and I really don't have much say at this point because they made up their mind.

I would LOVE to keep the Jeep but I just can't afford 4K to fix it up at this point since I'm already paying back the price of the Jeep.

Sorry for flip flopping so much trying to figure all of this out. Thanks for all of the help and maybe sometime in the future you'll see me on here with a new Jeep.
That sucks man but whatever you get i'm sure it will be nice...have you thought about a truck? When I was your age (wow never thought i'd say that ) I had a $700 78 Camaro so don't feel too bad. A little TLC, time and $$ can make anything nice.

Another thought would be a 98-02 Camaro/Trans Am. The LS1 mated to the T-56 tranny is a bullet proof reliable combo, high 20's on the highway and the weak 10 bolt rear are a dime a dozen. They're easy to work on (lack of room under the hood aside ) and 350bhp stock isn't too shabby. Plus a clean SS/WS6 pulls some serious ass!!
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:01 PM   #79
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My father wasn't too happy with the whole Jeep thing. Now he has in his head that all Jeep's are piles of crap that get terrible gas mileage and they are just a fun vehicle.
I basically put it this way to him. If I get a sports car, I'm going to sink money into it, go fast, get tickets and I'll be out more money. Then when I go to sell it, it won't be worth hardly anything.

With the Jeep, I can do most of the work myself, parts aren't OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive like a foreign car and they hold their resale value.

He hasn't argued with me since...


Jeeps resale value is also one of the highest. What other vehicle can be 10 years old and be worth 10k+ when it cost 25K new? My Jeep is 13 years old and is worth $9500. In the past year its only dropped $400
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Old 01-12-2013, 02:32 PM   #80
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That sucks man but whatever you get i'm sure it will be nice...have you thought about a truck? When I was your age (wow never thought i'd say that ) I had a $700 78 Camaro so don't feel too bad. A little TLC, time and $$ can make anything nice.

Another thought would be a 98-02 Camaro/Trans Am. The LS1 mated to the T-56 tranny is a bullet proof reliable combo, high 20's on the highway and the weak 10 bolt rear are a dime a dozen. They're easy to work on (lack of room under the hood aside ) and 350bhp stock isn't too shabby. Plus a clean SS/WS6 pulls some serious ass!!
I think he will let me get another Jeep, it's just this time we're going to take our time and look. I'm probably going to search for a high mileage automatic (what's TOO high of a mileage?) Rubicon if they will be in my price range (also, are there any bad Rubicon TJ years?). If I get my money back out of it, I should have the budget but if not, I'll probably look for a regular Wrangler with a D44 rear.

The guy at the body shop said to bring him along next time and he will inspect it for us to make us feel better about buying another one.
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Old 01-12-2013, 03:51 PM   #81
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I think he will let me get another Jeep, it's just this time we're going to take our time and look. I'm probably going to search for a high mileage automatic (what's TOO high of a mileage?) Rubicon if they will be in my price range (also, are there any bad Rubicon TJ years?). If I get my money back out of it, I should have the budget but if not, I'll probably look for a regular Wrangler with a D44 rear.

The guy at the body shop said to bring him along next time and he will inspect it for us to make us feel better about buying another one.
Do you plan on doing any offroading? Anything big, or just playing in the mud or a trail off a back road every so often? If not, the don't bother with a rubicon. Sure they have the lockers and D44, but on the road they're the same as any other jeep. If the D44 is what you want, then get a sport/Sahara with a D44 rear, the D30 is much tougher than the D35. Unless you just really need it to say rubicon on the hood
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:07 PM   #82
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Do you plan on doing any offroading? Anything big, or just playing in the mud or a trail off a back road every so often? If not, the don't bother with a rubicon. Sure they have the lockers and D44, but on the road they're the same as any other jeep. If the D44 is what you want, then get a sport/Sahara with a D44 rear, the D30 is much tougher than the D35. Unless you just really need it to say rubicon on the hood
I plan on going offroad but it will mainly be used as a DD. Probably not a ton of hard core stuff but probably some medium trails. I can't afford to mess something up since I drive it to work every day.

My main goal is to achieve 35's depending on what all has to be done. First thing I'll do is put on Metal Cloak's and then lift it from there for the 35's.
Will a Dana 30 and Dana 44 regeared be fine for 35's? I know there are a few other mods I will need to do (just can't think of them right now). What are they?

Depending how much I have to sink in to run 35's, I may just stick with 33's and go to 35's later.
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:28 PM   #83
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Is their a vocational technical high school in your area with a auto body shop? Labor is cheap and supervised.Frame swap their?
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:56 PM   #84
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Is their a vocational technical high school in your area with a auto body shop? Labor is cheap and supervised.Frame swap their?
Most of the ones only do it if it's a car that the school bought and is then going to sell for money at auction.

It would be more than the frame, the body needs work too.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:05 PM   #85
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Parents are already set on selling it BUT I was wondering, would it be worth it to keep the winch and the lights or would I have a hard time selling it without them? I'm not too crazy about the bumpers and they wouldn't be a lot to replace but the winch (unless I find one used) and lights are another story because I don't think I'll be able to afford those again.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:10 PM   #86
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Parents are already set on selling it BUT I was wondering, would it be worth it to keep the winch and the lights or would I have a hard time selling it without them? I'm not too crazy about the bumpers and they wouldn't be a lot to replace but the winch (unless I find one used) and lights are another story because I don't think I'll be able to afford those again.
Keep the winch. Keep the price you're selling it for too.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:13 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by JVLemur View Post
Keep the winch. Keep the price you're selling it for too.
I have it at $8,500
If I pull the winch should I still be ok?
I really want to keep the lights because they're $400 each (I think, can't figure out what model they are).
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:20 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by KILRIK View Post
Parents are already set on selling it BUT I was wondering, would it be worth it to keep the winch and the lights or would I have a hard time selling it without them? I'm not too crazy about the bumpers and they wouldn't be a lot to replace but the winch (unless I find one used) and lights are another story because I don't think I'll be able to afford those again.
Are you going to buy another jeep before selling the bent one? If you are or can convince your parents to do so i'd swap EVERYTHING over and put the stock crap on the yellow jeep...especially if you're selling to a dealer. Dealer's don't consider mods as added value to a vehicle until they're selling them Private party sell you'll want to leave the mods on.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:32 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KILRIK
I have it at $8,500
If I pull the winch should I still be ok?
I really want to keep the lights because they're $400 each (I think, can't figure out what model they are).
keeping the winch and the lights, I don't see a problem selling it for that price.
A stock one should be around that a bit more, at least in my area.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:34 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by SeVeReDiStOrTiOn View Post
Are you going to buy another jeep before selling the bent one? If you are or can convince your parents to do so i'd swap EVERYTHING over and put the stock crap on the yellow jeep...especially if you're selling to a dealer. Dealer's don't consider mods as added value to a vehicle until they're selling them Private party sell you'll want to leave the mods on.
Private party sell. I can't afford to buy another Jeep and switch everything over. If I could, I would.

Quick question the the Atlas Transfer Case. I know they are expensive and all but when I was trying to shift in to anything other than 2Hi, it was a PAIN to get it to shift and when I did finally get it into 4Hhi or 4Lo the whole Jeep would start bouncing. When I would turn the tires it felt like they all of a sudden where flat. This was only when I was in anything other than 2Hi. Any ideas?

If someone says that the Transfer case needs work, it will make letting this go a little easier...

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