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Old 05-28-2011, 10:57 AM   #1
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EBC rotors

is anyone running any of EBC's performance slotted rotors? i was thinking about upgrading with some yellow stuff brakes, but wanted a little input on their quality or if there is something out there that is better.

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Old 05-28-2011, 11:08 AM   #2
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EBC's "Yellow Stuff" brake pads are impressive. I would avoid any cross-drilled, dimpled or slotted rotors in favor of simply using good quality all cast cast-iron rotors like Centric Premium rotors. Such "trick" rotors don't help with a Jeep's braking, they also even reduce the rotors swept braking surface which means reduced braking effectiveness. Slots, dimples, and drilled holes are more for heat reduction for red-hot rotors that are common in racing and not seen on Jeeps on the street.

For 32" tires, EBC's Yellow Stuff pads will produce an impressive improvement in braking. Or you could go to Savvy Offroad's newer Black Magic pads which in local tests outbraked EBC's Yellow Stuff pads which until then were the #1 pads. I believe they're about the same price and you can get them directly from Savvy by contacting mrblaine@savvyoffroad.com (a supporting WF vendor) who has a package deal going for both the Black Magic pads plus Centric Premium rotors.

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Old 05-28-2011, 04:18 PM   #3
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I have black magic pads but haven't put them on yet. Jerry is right and listen to him. There is a thread on jeep forum where people who had centric rotors with EBC yellow pads and were given black magic pads. They broke the pads in per the instructions. Once that was done they were able to lock 35's up where this was not possible with EBC yellow. Now this set up is only avaliable for the front. There are centric rotors for the back but not the black magic pads. Allmost of your breaking is done by the front rotors.
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:51 PM   #4
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Almost of your breaking is done by the front rotors.
Exactly, which is why extraordinary pads like the Black Magic or even the EBC Yellow Stuff pads would be wasted on the rear brakes.
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Old 05-28-2011, 05:02 PM   #5
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Exactly, which is why extraordinary pads like the Black Magic or even the EBC Yellow Stuff pads would be wasted on the rear brakes.
Jerry, do you know the split? Is it somewhere around 60/40 split?
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Old 05-28-2011, 05:06 PM   #6
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It's probably a little closer to 70/30 to 75/25 and sometimes even 80/20.
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:55 PM   #7
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I have the Black Magic Pads and they are incredible. I can lock them up at 50 mph when before I could not even lock them up. They dust a little more than normal pads, but who cares as I just want it to stop. My limiting factor now is the friction between the tire and the road.
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Old 06-01-2011, 12:30 PM   #8
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awesome guys thanks so much for the help. one more question. my brakes (front and back) are still good, i just want better stopping power. that said if i get the black magic pads/rotors pack for the front, can i leave the rear how it is? or should i still change the rear for new pads/rotors as well?
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Old 06-01-2011, 01:50 PM   #9
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I would avoid any cross-drilled, dimpled or slotted rotors in favor of simply using good quality all cast cast-iron rotors like Centric Premium rotors. Such "trick" rotors don't help with a Jeep's braking, they also even reduce the rotors swept braking surface which means reduced braking effectiveness. Slots, dimples, and drilled holes are more for heat reduction for red-hot rotors that are common in racing and not seen on Jeeps on the street.
Check out the pictures of the horrible and deep "record grooves" on my stock rotors. The chances that the pads will line up perfectly with the groves every time is slim to none. If they don't line up, then the braking force is drastically reduced due to the very small contact area on top of the grooves. Slotted rotors wipe the pad so that they can't develop grooves. Flat pads keep the rotors flat and the braking performance up. So they are not "just for race cars"




The metal is not flush with the rotor, but you can get an idea of how deep the grooves are.
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:07 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by thetoadLJ View Post
awesome guys thanks so much for the help. one more question. my brakes (front and back) are still good, i just want better stopping power. that said if i get the black magic pads/rotors pack for the front, can i leave the rear how it is? or should i still change the rear for new pads/rotors as well?
You don't have to change the rear, the front will be fine to change only. That's all I'm doing.


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Check out the pictures of the horrible and deep "record grooves" on my stock rotors. The chances that the pads will line up perfectly with the groves every time is slim to none. If they don't line up, then the braking force is drastically reduced due to the very small contact area on top of the grooves. Slotted rotors wipe the pad so that they can't develop grooves. Flat pads keep the rotors flat and the braking performance up. So they are not "just for race cars"




The metal is not flush with the rotor, but you can get an idea of how deep the grooves are.
Now on your last picture your piece of metal should not be touching the outer rusted surfacer of the rotor because the pad does not sit there. I agree with you that the pad doesn't have as such surface contact area because of the grooves but the pad doesn't rearch out to the rusted spot. If it did it wouldn't have rust on it.
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:20 PM   #11
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Check out the pictures of the horrible and deep "record grooves" on my stock rotors. The chances that the pads will line up perfectly with the groves every time is slim to none. If they don't line up, then the braking force is drastically reduced due to the very small contact area on top of the grooves. Slotted rotors wipe the pad so that they can't develop grooves. Flat pads keep the rotors flat and the braking performance up. So they are not "just for race cars"




The metal is not flush with the rotor, but you can get an idea of how deep the grooves are.
What kind of pads were you running?
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:59 PM   #12
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Now on your last picture your piece of metal should not be touching the outer rusted surfacer of the rotor because the pad does not sit there. I agree with you that the pad doesn't have as such surface contact area because of the grooves but the pad doesn't rearch out to the rusted spot. If it did it wouldn't have rust on it.
I know it would have been nice to have a piece of metal that fit, but I was too lazy to cut it just for a picture. It still helps reference how big the grooves are. The large outside lip of the rotor does not factor into this issue because, as you said, the pad doesn't touch it.

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What kind of pads were you running?
Not sure, they came with the jeep. I would believe they were still the stock pads.
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Old 06-01-2011, 05:04 PM   #13
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Not sure, they came with the jeep. I would believe they were still the stock pads.
I ask because if they were pads such as ones from autozone or the like they are probably very hard, which will tend to groove and wear your rotors much quicker than a softer pad such as the ebc's or black magic pads.
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Old 06-01-2011, 05:28 PM   #14
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[QUOTE=jgorm;1274475]I know it would have been nice to have a piece of metal that fit, but I was too lazy to cut it just for a picture. It still helps reference how big the grooves are. The large outside lip of the rotor does not factor into this issue because, as you said, the pad doesn't touch it.



I got you. Just didn't want anyone else to missread it.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:35 AM   #15
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Check out the pictures of the horrible and deep "record grooves" on my stock rotors. The chances that the pads will line up perfectly with the groves every time is slim to none. If they don't line up, then the braking force is drastically reduced due to the very small contact area on top of the grooves. Slotted rotors wipe the pad so that they can't develop grooves. Flat pads keep the rotors flat and the braking performance up. So they are not "just for race cars"
Actually you can't wear "record grooves" in the rotor swept area unless the pad does line up exactly the same every time. If you were to show us a picture of the brake pad and then lay it on the rotor, the high and low spots will line up perfectly.

The caliper pistons under normal use don't retract back far enough due to the seal design to let the pad have an opportunity to reposition itself.

Not to mention the obvious, but if the pad could reposition itself and move over so the high spot of the pad landed on the high spot of the rotor, then it would wear them down and the rotor would be flat again.

Also, not that one should, but one could make a case that deeply grooved rotors with the corresponding matching pads would increase stopping ability due to the increase in surface contact area.

If you were to straighten out the valleys and ridges into a straight line, it would be much longer than the pad is wide in it's normal state and that is a pretty good surface area increase.

As far as slotted being for race cars, we just put a set of solid face Centric Premium rotors on a race Cherokee in the 24 hours of Lemons race in one of the Vanco 16" BBKs.

The owner and driver reported back that they could outbrake anyone in the race and would not even start braking until they were past all the brake markers at the corners and not once during the race did they experience any outgassing, hot fade, or anything else other than awesome braking.

Also, holding up the very poor quality OEM rotors as an example of anything other than that is just that. An example of poor quality rotors and not so great pads. It wasn't always that way, but starting in about 03, something changed and Jeep no longer used the great rotors they had previous.

I've spent a fair bit of time with a few of the performance brake folks and in private conversations about our needs with the Jeeps, not once have they ever told me that anything but smooth face rotors would be an improvement.

I do a lot of brake testing and am currently testing some stuff from some of them and have offered to test their slotted and/or drilled options so I can offer them as items and again, they will send me pads to test and evaluate, but not rotors.

Essentially our conversations always boil down to Yes, they may make a small difference in certain conditions, but at no point will that difference be enough to justify the difference in cost vs high quality Premium smooth face rotors.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:44 AM   #16
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So if I need new rotors AND pads what is the best way to go? Specifically the rotors...jus cheaper regular rotors that aren't slotted or drilled?
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:47 AM   #17
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I ask because if they were pads such as ones from autozone or the like they are probably very hard, which will tend to groove and wear your rotors much quicker than a softer pad such as the ebc's or black magic pads.
It has been a fairly long time since pads could accurately be referred to as hard or soft. Modern technology and improvements in pad compounds pretty much negate that nomenclature and now we just have to sorta go by their coefficients of friction. Even that is just a way for the testing folks to kinda get a comparison between compounds.

They are using so many different and varied substances in pads now, that even the old stand by names we used to know them by such as semi-metallic, carbon metallic and ceramic are now just buzzwords to sell pads.

A great example of that is the Black Magic Pad. It's got some ceramic fiber, some carbon fiber, some aramid, and some other stuff, but nothing dominant enough to place it solidly in any of the known classifications, so we don't even really know what to call them.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:51 AM   #18
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So if I need new rotors AND pads what is the best way to go? Specifically the rotors...jus cheaper regular rotors that aren't slotted or drilled?
I'm not sure I'm clear on your question? Best as far as outright stopping power and ability?

Best as far as price?

Best as far as what? If you are after outright stopping power, then a high quality solid face premium rotor like the Centric 120 series is very tough to beat.

Pads? Hands down the Black Magic Pads have shown to have the highest cold bite with no fade and highest level of braking possible on the Centric rotors.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:54 AM   #19
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It has been a fairly long time since pads could accurately be referred to as hard or soft. Modern technology and improvements in pad compounds pretty much negate that nomenclature and now we just have to sorta go by their coefficients of friction. Even that is just a way for the testing folks to kinda get a comparison between compounds.

They are using so many different and varied substances in pads now, that even the old stand by names we used to know them by such as semi-metallic, carbon metallic and ceramic are now just buzzwords to sell pads.

A great example of that is the Black Magic Pad. It's got some ceramic fiber, some carbon fiber, some aramid, and some other stuff, but nothing dominant enough to place it solidly in any of the known classifications, so we don't even really know what to call them.
Ya after I posted that, I realized that hard was not the right choice of wording. Thanks for clearing it up
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:10 AM   #20
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I'm not sure I'm clear on your question? Best as far as outright stopping power and ability?

Best as far as price?

Best as far as what? If you are after outright stopping power, then a high quality solid face premium rotor like the Centric 120 series is very tough to beat.

Pads? Hands down the Black Magic Pads have shown to have the highest cold bite with no fade and highest level of braking possible on the Centric rotors.
Well from some things I read in this post I got the impression that slotted and drilled rotors are kind of a waste? I definitely don't race my jeep or anything lol...I guess my question is what type (flat, slotted, drilled) of rotor has the most longevity? I don't necessarily need them to be really cheap but if $200 rotors are kind of a waste of time then I'll avoid that...what about an xtreme value kit that comes with everything for around $150?
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:23 AM   #21
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Go to BlackMagicBrakes.com and order up a set. You get the Centric rotors and the Black magic pads to go with it. All you need in one shot.
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:33 AM   #22
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Check out the pictures of the horrible and deep "record grooves" on my stock rotors. The chances that the pads will line up perfectly with the groves every time is slim to none. If they don't line up, then the braking force is drastically reduced due to the very small contact area on top of the grooves. Slotted rotors wipe the pad so that they can't develop grooves. Flat pads keep the rotors flat and the braking performance up. So they are not "just for race cars"




The metal is not flush with the rotor, but you can get an idea of how deep the grooves are.
I wish my rotors looked like that when I took them off my truck... the two sides of the rotor should be the same thickness... on my truck one side was at least 1/4 thinner than the other side...
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:36 AM   #23
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Check out the pictures of the horrible and deep "record grooves" on my stock rotors. The chances that the pads will line up perfectly with the groves every time is slim to none.
check your knuckles for divots.



here's how to fix:
XJ/TJ/ZJ Front Knuckle Repair - Brake Pad Grooves - JeepForum.com

I had the record grooves on my stock rotors & centric/EBC combo as well, but I have had zero issues with my Vanco brakes. The Vanco knuckles don't flex like stock knuckles and the pads actually hit square to the rotors. The stock brake setup has a few design flaws....which lead to these problems.
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:39 PM   #24
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check your knuckles for divots.
I did They were not anywhere near as bad as that picture, but I smoothed them out just a bit.



They do look cool (I wish the gray stayed on the rotors)


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Also, not that one should, but one could make a case that deeply grooved rotors with the corresponding matching pads would increase stopping ability due to the increase in surface contact area.

If you were to straighten out the valleys and ridges into a straight line, it would be much longer than the pad is wide in it's normal state and that is a pretty good surface area increase.

As far as slotted being for race cars, we just put a set of solid face Centric Premium rotors on a race Cherokee in the 24 hours of Lemons race in one of the Vanco 16" BBKs.
Well, you do make the case that they have to line up to make the grooves, but as far as adding to the brake performance... That's a bit of a stretch. You might get more surface area, but the extra heat generated on the ridges will not be good for the longevity of the rotors. The ridges will form cementite much faster, and that will cause them to become even worse and taller. If the pad moved, even a fraction of an inch, your braking performance would be severely degraded.

I would hardly consider a Cherokee in the lemons race a race car Was this guy your competition?
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:50 PM   #25
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Well, you do make the case that they have to line up to make the grooves, but as far as adding to the brake performance... That's a bit of a stretch. You might get more surface area, but the extra heat generated on the ridges will not be good for the longevity of the rotors. The ridges will form cementite much faster, and that will cause them to become even worse and taller. If the pad moved, even a fraction of an inch, your braking performance would be severely degraded.
Cemetite is typically created when there is a localized hot spot like when a layer of friction material is imprinted onto a hot rotor during the bedding process which then spins past the pads and due to it being higher than the surrounding rotor face, gets hotter than it should causing the change in metallurgy. I don't envision the localization of heat in a continuous surface. And again, coulda, woulda, shoulda, the pads won't hop out of the grooves.
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I would hardly consider a Cherokee in the lemons race a race car
And I didn't suspect you would which doesn't change the reality though. Although the Series is fairly tongue in cheek, the folks that participate are by and large pretty serious about the race. To be clear, I'm not in the series, we merely sponsored a set of brakes and extra pad sets so they could bed them ahead of time.

To clarify further, if you read the rules, the cars are cheap, but nothing safety related including fire suppression, cages, brakes, tires or similar are.

Although you picked the worst of the worst to hold up as competition, there are other vehicles in the race more appropriate to this discussion.


Was this guy your competition?
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:53 PM   #26
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Well from some things I read in this post I got the impression that slotted and drilled rotors are kind of a waste? I definitely don't race my jeep or anything lol...I guess my question is what type (flat, slotted, drilled) of rotor has the most longevity? I don't necessarily need them to be really cheap but if $200 rotors are kind of a waste of time then I'll avoid that...what about an xtreme value kit that comes with everything for around $150?
Non solid face quality rotors are not a total waste. They just don't provide enough of an increase in stopping ability to justify the cost.

I know not of extreme value kits. I do know that you can not get better stopping than our pads and a Quality solid face rotor.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:51 PM   #27
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:13 PM   #28
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This is a general warning, stay on topic or the thread will be closed. Remember that personal attacks will not be tolerated.
You can get a thread closed if you get off topic?
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:16 PM   #29
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You can get a thread closed if you get off topic?
Usually if it's a hostile situation the mods will say or do something but not necessarily just a change in discussion
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:21 PM   #30
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