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Old 11-10-2011, 08:58 AM   #1
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Erratic Turn Signal... Only When Driving with Lights Off??? I have SFF

Guys,

Bought my Jeep about three weeks ago now and the previous owner installed flat off-road fenders and wired new turn signals to match both on the front of the vehicle and on the inner wheel well of both front fenders to comply with VA regulations (which mandate a orange blinker on the front sides of the car).

Anyways, about a week ago I noticed that the left turn signal indicator on the dash was blinking sporadically (i.e. very quickly, but not altogether consistently if you get what I mean... sounded like: clickclickclickclick..click..click..clickclickclic kclick).

First thought: must be one of the bulbs going bad. Did a quick visual inspection and noticed that ALL OF THE BULBS were flickering in sync with the unusual rate of the turn signal indicator but that all were still lighting up. And then today when driving to work, the turn signal would flash a few times then QUIT. I would then reset it and flick the turn signal again, and the signal would "sputter" and continue to erratically flicker. At that point I said to myself, "Ok, time to search WF".

Came here and did some reading, sounded like maybe it was a bad ground on one of the lights... but here is where I still am confused. If it is, in fact, a bad ground, or, if one of the bulbs was going bad, would that cause all of the bulbs to flash erratically in sync with one another???

And get this, when driving with the headlights on, this problem disappears completely... . This just confused me even more when I figured it out.

While it is not urgent I fix this, I want to repair the problem as soon as possible as (A) its technically illegal to be driving with a sometimes non-functional turn signal, (B) I will need to resolve this by next July to pass my VA safety inspection.

Where should I start trouble shooting? I was thinking of taking out all of the bulbs this weekend and checking the connectors for corrosion first, trying to clean those up and seeing if that helped. If that didn't work I figured I would replace all of the bulbs. If that didn't work, I need advice from you WFers where to go from there.

My humble thanks for anyone who can help.

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Old 11-10-2011, 10:25 AM   #2
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Responding to my own post here, but it looks like maybe I have a bad flasher or switch. Reference quote from Shelby427 in this thread: http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/turn...wn-113215.html

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Originally Posted by Shelby427 View Post
Umm, did you check the front bulb? If the rear one is flashing fast it's a sign that the front one isn't working at all. If both front and rear on one side are flashing fast compared to the other side, you have a bad flasher or switch.
Anyone know how easy of a DIY this is? Not even sure if that is the problem anyways.

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Old 11-19-2011, 08:11 PM   #3
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I know no one has responded to this thread yet (besides myself), but I am updating in the hopes that someone can help me out.

Here is what I have done so far: replaced the rear reverse light (which was broken).

Replaced the turn signal switch unit (entire component swapped out).

Here are my current symptoms:

When I turn the lights on, my left turn signal indicator is illuminated, simultaneously, the front marker lamp and side front marker lamp are dark (should be lit up). When I flick the turn signal left (push down), the left turn signal indicator goes dark and the front marker lamp and side marker lamp light up.

If I flick the turn signal right, nothing happens.

All bulbs are good. What could this be?
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Old 11-19-2011, 08:21 PM   #4
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BTW, how can I check to see if my ground is bad? I see that referenced a lot but am unsure of exactly how to do it.

Thanks.
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Old 11-20-2011, 06:04 AM   #5
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Do you have brush guards on the tail lights, these are known to provide poor grounds and cause many problems. If you do take them off and try it.
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Old 11-20-2011, 07:53 AM   #6
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My jeep has a similar issue. I found that there was corrosion built up on the contacts that the bulb sits in. Just a thought.
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:11 AM   #7
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A "tester" is a very inexpensive tool. The simple ones only check that you are getting power and that your ground is good. It is "the screw driver/ice pick thing with a couple wires out of it/clamps on the end" -most stores wally world big R autozone pep boys advanced) carrier them less than $10.

You hook up one clamp to the power side and one to ground if it lights up you are "good".

If checking turn signals it should blink.

Sitting in an arm chair/at a computer trying to diagnose your problem is a little iffy at best. If the PO used wrong size type of wire could be part of the issue as resistance and current flow could be affected. With that said--- I would

1.) clean and double check all connections and bulb sockets.

2.) look for a "loose wire" or "pinched" or even pulled very tight and crimped.

3.) if the "grounding" is from the housing of the bulb receptacle, I would clean and ensure good metal to metal contact and also use some contact cleaner in all bulb sockets.

If that didn't fix it would either rewire myself or take it to a shop for repair.

Good Luck!!
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:35 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Atthehop View Post
Do you have brush guards on the tail lights, these are known to provide poor grounds and cause many problems. If you do take them off and try it.
Nope, no brush guards so that couldn't be it, but thank you.

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Originally Posted by jp2611 View Post
A "tester" is a very inexpensive tool. The simple ones only check that you are getting power and that your ground is good. It is "the screw driver/ice pick thing with a couple wires out of it/clamps on the end" -most stores wally world big R autozone pep boys advanced) carrier them less than $10.

You hook up one clamp to the power side and one to ground if it lights up you are "good".

If checking turn signals it should blink.

Sitting in an arm chair/at a computer trying to diagnose your problem is a little iffy at best. If the PO used wrong size type of wire could be part of the issue as resistance and current flow could be affected. With that said--- I would

1.) clean and double check all connections and bulb sockets.

2.) look for a "loose wire" or "pinched" or even pulled very tight and crimped.

3.) if the "grounding" is from the housing of the bulb receptacle, I would clean and ensure good metal to metal contact and also use some contact cleaner in all bulb sockets.

If that didn't fix it would either rewire myself or take it to a shop for repair.

Good Luck!!
Thanks very much for the input. So far I have only cleaned the front marker lamp and reverse light lamp housings for corrosion and replaced the bulbs. I will clean the rest of them and go from there.

That being said, inspecting the wiring it looks like someone has redone the wiring in the past 200000 miles of the vehicles life, which makes me concerned I may have to rewire the whole thing myself. I will be checking the grounds by purchasing that tool you recommended first, of course. Will post back here once I narrow it down to the wiring (I really hope its not that).
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:17 PM   #9
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Guys,

Posting an update here. Cleaned all of the bulb housings on the driver side and am still encountering the same problem. One thing I have noticed is that with the headlights off, the turn signal on the left turn signal will flash rapidly but otherwise work, and the right turn signal will function normally. With the headlights on, the left turn signal does not function and the green indicator is illuminated, and the right turn signal will flash three times and stop.

Should I also be checking and cleaning the passenger side bulbs as well? Additionally, the hood light is burned out (has been that way since I bought it), could that be causing a short somewhere?

Lastly, if I want to start checking the wiring, what setting on my multimeter should I use and where should I place the prongs? Don't flame me, I just don't know much about electrical.

Thanks a lot for any assistance.
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:24 PM   #10
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This has happened on all of my Jeeps, has always been the same thing: Bad Ground

Exact same symptoms too, left blinker light on dash is on when the lights are on. Blinks very fast, turns on and off other lights.

Check the voltage between the grounds for your lights and the battery positive. Use the 12v dc setting on your multimeter
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Old 11-30-2011, 02:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared234 View Post
This has happened on all of my Jeeps, has always been the same thing: Bad Ground

Exact same symptoms too, left blinker light on dash is on when the lights are on. Blinks very fast, turns on and off other lights.

Check the voltage between the grounds for your lights and the battery positive. Use the 12v dc setting on your multimeter
Jared, .

Again, I am not electrically inclined, where are the grounds for my lights? I would be checking the front and side marker lamps and head lamps. The multimeter should read around 12v if the ground is good correct? If the ground is bad I assume the reading will be substantially below 12v? If so, where do you begin fixing a bad ground?

Sorry, I should take an electrician course or something
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Old 11-30-2011, 02:18 PM   #12
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The ground is the black wire inside the split loom, both front blinkers on each side are grounded to a single bolt under the hood, just follow the wire from the light.
You should test both the bolt and inside the bulb socket, since that will likely be the bad spot.

Yes it should read 12v or OL (overload) if you have it set to 12v. If its running it will be producing 14.4v

Bad ground will read less voltage or negative voltage
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Old 11-30-2011, 02:19 PM   #13
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Most flasher relays use the resistance of the bulb to generate the 'flash' effect. IF your bulbs have been replaced with LED, then it's not uncommon to have a flash issue. You can buy (it's cheap) an Flasher designed to work with LEDs.

Second, bad grounds are the most common problem with bulbs not flashing, or flashing inconsistantly. Often the bulb will try and find any source to go to ground, including the adjacent light socket. Think like this. The bulb has 3 wires, 1 bright, 1 dim (running lamp) and 1 ground. If the ground is bad, then it'll try and send that juice thru the running lamp socket, which is connected thru the wiring harness to all the other running lamps.

And lastly, you probably have a bad turn signal switch in the column. That's currently what's wrong with my 97 TJ.
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Old 11-30-2011, 03:04 PM   #14
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Most flasher relays use the resistance of the bulb to generate the 'flash' effect. IF your bulbs have been replaced with LED, then it's not uncommon to have a flash issue. You can buy (it's cheap) an Flasher designed to work with LEDs.

Second, bad grounds are the most common problem with bulbs not flashing, or flashing inconsistantly. Often the bulb will try and find any source to go to ground, including the adjacent light socket. Think like this. The bulb has 3 wires, 1 bright, 1 dim (running lamp) and 1 ground. If the ground is bad, then it'll try and send that juice thru the running lamp socket, which is connected thru the wiring harness to all the other running lamps.

And lastly, you probably have a bad turn signal switch in the column. That's currently what's wrong with my 97 TJ.
Jared and Treeclimber, thank you very much. I will check the ground with my multimeter and report back.

@Treeclimber's comment regarding the turn signal switch, I thought it was bad as well and replaced it, only to find out the problem was still there ! If you are interested in my old switch (which is fully functional), I would be happy to sell it to you for dirt cheap (I paid $36 for a new one on fleabay). Just PM me.
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Old 11-30-2011, 03:06 PM   #15
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The ground is the black wire inside the split loom, both front blinkers on each side are grounded to a single bolt under the hood, just follow the wire from the light.
You should test both the bolt and inside the bulb socket, since that will likely be the bad spot.

Yes it should read 12v or OL (overload) if you have it set to 12v. If its running it will be producing 14.4v

Bad ground will read less voltage or negative voltage
If the bolt is causing the bad spot, should I simply remove it, sand it with some low grit sand paper, apply dielectric grease, and reinstall?
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:07 AM   #16
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This has happened on all of my Jeeps, has always been the same thing: Bad Ground

Exact same symptoms too, left blinker light on dash is on when the lights are on. Blinks very fast, turns on and off other lights.

Check the voltage between the grounds for your lights and the battery positive. Use the 12v dc setting on your multimeter
Guys, I appreciate your help on this. Wanted to post an update because I am still at a loss. This weekend, I did the following:

- checked the ground wire, the bulb socket for the side marker lamp, and the bulb socket for the front signal lamp with my multimeter set to 20v (my multimeter doesn't have a 12v), all of the grounds were good on those pieces - reading out at 12.3v - 12.8v (engine off) and 14.3v (engine on).

- in doing this, I noticed my third brake light (center above the spare) was non-functional. I opened it up and found the bulb to be long since dead. I replaced the bulb and respliced the wiring leading from the third brake light to inside the tub - that has fixed the brake light but not my turn signal problem. Am I correct in that the third brake light does not have a running setting and only lights up when the brake is applied? That's what mine does.

So - neither of these things seemed to have helped my problem. A few more question for Jared and the other knowledgeable jeepers:

How can I check the ground on the rear brake lights? I want to make sure the ground isn't bad on the driver side brake light.

Is there anything else I can do before I complete a re-wire? I feel like there is a simple solution here that I am overlooking. I replaced the turn signal switch already so I know that is not it.

In the event a wire is "pinched", how can you tell and do I need to simply replace the pinched section of the wiring?

Thanks a lot for your help guys. I am determined to fix this! I got a quote from a local shop for a diagnosis of electrical problems on the Jeep starting at $110. I refuse to give in at this point!

P.S. Does it mean anything that with the lights on the turn signals behave differently than with the lights off?

I really think I have a bad ground but I don't know where else to look.
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Old 12-06-2011, 10:36 AM   #17
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When I replaced my turn switch, I believe it was around $30.
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:18 PM   #18
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If you are getting a good ground and 12v at the bulb socket then its not the wiring, and even a complete re-wire wont help you.

Did you ever replace the relay?
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:58 PM   #19
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If you are getting a good ground and 12v at the bulb socket then its not the wiring, and even a complete re-wire wont help you.

Did you ever replace the relay?
No I never replaced the relay. I also was thinking I should try checking the grounds on the driver side tail light. I haven't checked the screws connecting the unit to the body, but they looked rust free from first glance.

I'll buy the relay and install it soon. What does the relay control exactly?
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:03 PM   #20
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The relay takes a low current signal from the switch and applies high current from the battery to the bulbs.

Do your rear tailights/blinkers work? If not you should do the same voltage checking routine in the back
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:13 PM   #21
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The the driver side tail light works sporadically like the front marker/front side, but it is always lit, unlike the front marker/front side which stay turned off unless I hit the turn signal to the left. How do you check the ground on those rear lights since you can't get the multimeter to reach the batter positive terminal? I know that is a noob question
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:16 PM   #22
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Sounds suspect.

Use a longer wire lol
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Old 12-06-2011, 09:55 PM   #23
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Had the same problem, I figured out it was the wire coming out of the bulbs before my signal, the wire was loose coming out of that bulb, so cable tied it nice and snug, it's been good for months now
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Old 12-07-2011, 02:15 PM   #24
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Had the same problem, I figured out it was the wire coming out of the bulbs before my signal, the wire was loose coming out of that bulb, so cable tied it nice and snug, it's been good for months now
Thanks for the input.

One thing I noticed this morning - the driver side front market/signal lamp is dimly lit (when compared to the working passenger side lamp). I have a hunch the socket may be corroded/going bad. Wouldn't this be an indication that the connection is going bad?
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Old 12-07-2011, 03:56 PM   #25
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Mine did the same thing before I fixed it! Turn your lights on and get in there and jiggle that wire off that light before your turn signal
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Old 12-12-2011, 04:10 PM   #26
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Ok, once again updating this thread. This weekend I did the following to try to resolve my finicky turn signal:

(1) Checked the ground on the rear turn light (there was no rust), and for good measure I replaced one of the grounding bolts with a brand new fat bolt

(2) Freshly spliced all of the wires coming from my driver side (the side that is acting up) front market lamp socket (3 wires) and side marker light socket (2 wires). Tested the ground on the new connections and go a good reading on all of the wiring and sockets.

All of that done, problem was still there.

However, doing all this I did run a little test and, to my surprise, found something that I think could be related to the problem. The PO had installed to custom two-way switches on the dash; one I believe is for the tow light switch (still installed), and one is for fog lights (uninstalled before I purchased). I don't know which one goes to which yet. However, when I flick the switches a certain way, the turn signal will work (still flashing fast though, not normal speed). If the switches are in any other position than the one position, the turn signal will not work.

This must be connected somehow. Should I unplug those switches and see if it fixes my problem? If so, how do I open up that part of the instrument panel.

Your help is really appreciated.
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:05 PM   #27
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mrobinso, Are your flat fender marker/turn signal lights LED? If so you will need an LED capable flasher unit from GCD Jeep TJ after market Flasher LED 2001-2006 [GCD-TJ0106] - $28.95 :: GCD Offroad - An Ultra Care Car Products, Inc Company If you have LEDs your stock flasher will think there is a bulb out somewhere and flash quickly to alert you. You may also need to do an electrical mod that will make your 3 stock marker/turn signal wires work with your 2 wire LED bulb. There is a thread on this forum on how to that. It's easy. If I could do it any one can. We are installing flat fenders with LEDs on 2 jeeps and are going through the same thing.
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:11 PM   #28
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OK, I hit submit and saw that you have a '99. No problem you don't have to buy the flasher you can modify your stock flasher. Very easy. I did my '98 this way. The info is on JeepForum.com, TJ Technical Forum, 2wire LEDs to 3 wire conversion (write up).
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Old 12-12-2011, 06:52 PM   #29
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Fred thanks but none of my bulbs are LED so that cannot be the problem.

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