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Old 01-03-2011, 07:38 PM   #1
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ethanol question...

Seems like the gas stations may start selling 15% ethanol gas mix to cars 2007 and newer. I was wondering is it something small that I could do to my 2002 Jeep to make it run on 15% ethanol? Or is it a large undertaking. Just wondering...not necessarily gonna do it.

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Old 01-03-2011, 07:45 PM   #2
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15% ethanol is fine in your Jeep. the stock fuel system is already equipped to use it. E-85 (85% ethanol) is NOT compatible.

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Old 01-03-2011, 07:49 PM   #3
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Hmmm...wonder why the news article said cars 2007 and newer. Strange. Oh well. Thanks!
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:03 PM   #4
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Hmmm...wonder why the news article said cars 2007 and newer. Strange. Oh well. Thanks!
cause news writers are a bunch of idiots. they've been doing E-15 (15% ethanol) for a good 10 years or more. its hard to find a station that actually sells 100% gas now-a-days...most states even have regs requiring selling E-15 since it lowers emissions.
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:18 PM   #5
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Everything down here in Texas is 10%. What kind of change,if any, will there be in mileage? Just curious if its negligible.
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:24 PM   #6
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FYI...

Any vehicle can run E-85.

Its actually a much better gas, burns hotter, burns cleaner and is cheaper. Slightly worse gas mileage, not much though!

Only thing is rubber lines need to be steel or harder, and the computer may need re-flashed on newer cars and you have to slowly introduce it. You can't just dump a full tank in the first try.
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:47 PM   #7
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Being a automotive machinist (over 20years). I love it. Its great for my business
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:53 PM   #8
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I like corn on the cob or in a glass, but not in the tank
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:01 PM   #9
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My friends super street camaro runs on E-85. He is changing his plate to..

Cornfed

The 350z I was riding in, he was bumping his hippity hop lol

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Old 01-03-2011, 09:04 PM   #10
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e85 also does not like plastic intakes, higher octane also i do not like and will not use. 15% is a standard here and my wifes turbo beetle does not like it every other tank needs octane booster with 91 octane, no 93 octane stations around here
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:13 PM   #11
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I like corn on the cob or in a glass, but not in the tank
I absolutely agree. Lame. Super lame.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:14 PM   #12
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High octane is great for many motors, keeps the cylinder walls clean, injectors, spark plugs and valves. As well as many other parts and the whole exhaust system.

E85 I think is around 102 octane? Anyways, it cant just be used, but any car CAN use it. You'll need to bump up your timing most likely in older vehicles.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:15 PM   #13
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Ethanol cost more to make then gas sells for . Slightly worse gas mileage is alot of BS . With out Government money all Ethanol plants would be closed in two weeks . DOES THAT TELL YOU ANYTHING .

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Old 01-03-2011, 09:18 PM   #14
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E85 I think is around 102 octane? Anyways, it cant just be used, but any car CAN use it. You'll need to bump up your timing most likely in older vehicles.
and change the fuel injectors, and change any incompatible seals, and change the computer programming, possibly new fuel pump, new fuel tank, different spark plugs, new fuel rail, pressure regulator changes.

and to tank advantage of that 105 octane you need to bump up the compression by decking the block or boosting it...otherwise you'll end up with about a 30% power/torque drop.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:19 PM   #15
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Ethanol cost more to make then gas sells for . Slightly worse gas mileage is alot of BS . With out Government money all Ethanol plants would be closed in two weeks . DOES THAT TELL YOU ANYTHING .

BANGER

Tells me that we are too dependent on our little friend oil. And that they make more money on oil to make something else when everyone loves the gasoline. I'd rather run E85 then any other gas out there.

You wouldn't need a new tank, or a new fuel pump or new injectors. Its not a different consistency. Possibly some seals and computer flashing with the newer vehicles. Anything with TBI or back you just need to crank back the timing to get the spark right with the ignition point of the new fuel since it burns hotter. and doesn't need to be as compressed in the cylinder at the top of the stroke. As per say.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:23 PM   #16
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And yes you can run E-85, but you'll need a few things to make it happen, but it is doable. its going to be quite expensive tho, and may outweigh any MPG savings.

Things to remember -
  • The 4.0L has no knock sensors, and the computer is as smart as a door knob. it doesn't know you're putting E85 in it. You need to address this by adding a piggyback computer (SplitSecond FTC-1 or Unichip), then having it dyno tuned to get the correct air/fuel ratio for E-85. The A/F ratio for E-85 is VERY different than that for gasoline. (9.8:1 vs 14.7:1). The timing map will also be very different - see #3.
  • E-85 is a LESS efficient fuel. You end up burning MORE fuel to get LESS power in an engine designed for gasoline.
  • E-85 is about 105 octane. You're not even close to causing detonation vs. 87 octane which will be closer to detonation at full compression in the cylinder. This means you're timing needs to be changed to help take advantage of the increased resistance to detonation. Ideally, you'd want to deck the block and/or mill the head to increase the compression ratio to around 9.5:1, to regain some power and make use of the 105 octane.
Here are 2 very good discussions with CB3. He claimed E85 was great, despite ongoing problems with his 4.0L. He later stopped using E85 all together.
I've been running a 40% gas with 60% E85 mixture for 6 months and love it! - JeepForum.com
Changed Sparkplugs, old ones green? - JeepForum.com
Here's what happens when you run E85 without doing the proper mods:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
The green nickel oxide deposits suggests your combustion is running too hot. While ethanol burns cooler than gasoline, because it is a less efficient fuel and the stoichiometric ratio is different, your engine's computer will NOT provide the correct amount of fuel when the ethanol concentration is too high. This will leave you running lean, and therefore very hot.
Don't believe me? How about a GM Powertrain engineer?
Quote:
While the stoichiometric (chemically ideal) air/fuel mixture ratio for gasoline is approximately 14.7:1, with ethanol it is around 9.79:1... Josh Ksiazkiewsicz is a GM Powertrain engineer and one of GM Performance Division's resident E85 gurus. A recent graduate of Kettering University, he is currently writing a rather thick master's thesis on ethanol fuels.... He says, "If you compare gasoline and E85, they have roughly a 20 to 25 percent differential in energy density by mass. We can't change that. What we can do is compensate for it by delivering more fuel mass to make up the difference."
from: E85 Ethanol Alternative Fuel - Air Fuel Mixture Ratio - ETHANOL: WHAT'S THE DEAL?
Read everything carefully, because if you really want to run E85 it can be done correctly!

I originally researched this when gas was $4+ per gallon, and posted that info here:
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f19/e...4/#post7850508
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:27 PM   #17
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you would need a higher flow pump and higher rate injectors, higher octane burns slower and you need more to compensate the slow burn. a ford 4.6 will not run with a stock 190 pump or stock 19# injectors.it needs a 255 pump and atleast 24# injectors but 30# would be better
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:28 PM   #18
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I wish i was set up for small engines(mowers,weedeaters,4wheelers,bikes). LOVE ethanol. love it.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:28 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by UnlimitedLJ04 View Post
And yes you can run E-85, but you'll need a few things to make it happen, but it is doable. its going to be quite expensive tho, and may outweigh any MPG savings.

Things to remember -
  • The 4.0L has no knock sensors, and the computer is as smart as a door knob. it doesn't know you're putting E85 in it. You need to address this by adding a piggyback computer (SplitSecond FTC-1 or Unichip), then having it dyno tuned to get the correct air/fuel ratio for E-85. The A/F ratio for E-85 is VERY different than that for gasoline. (9.8:1 vs 14.7:1). The timing map will also be very different - see #3.
  • E-85 is a LESS efficient fuel. You end up burning MORE fuel to get LESS power in an engine designed for gasoline.
  • E-85 is about 105 octane. You're not even close to causing detonation vs. 87 octane which will be closer to detonation at full compression in the cylinder. This means you're timing needs to be changed to help take advantage of the increased resistance to detonation. Ideally, you'd want to deck the block and/or mill the head to increase the compression ratio to around 9.5:1, to regain some power and make use of the 105 octane.
Here are 2 very good discussions with CB3. He claimed E85 was great, despite ongoing problems with his 4.0L. He later stopped using E85 all together.
I've been running a 40% gas with 60% E85 mixture for 6 months and love it! - JeepForum.com
Changed Sparkplugs, old ones green? - JeepForum.com
Here's what happens when you run E85 without doing the proper mods:

Don't believe me? How about a GM Powertrain engineer?

from: E85 Ethanol Alternative Fuel - Air Fuel Mixture Ratio - ETHANOL: WHAT'S THE DEAL?
Read everything carefully, because if you really want to run E85 it can be done correctly!

I originally researched this when gas was $4+ per gallon, and posted that info here:
E-85 convertion - JeepForum.com
X2!! Do it right, don't just dump it in or you will just open up a hole box of worms a big ole box!

The positive is a higher compression usually and more HP in certain motors. Also, the inside of you engine will look brand new after running it. Same with the exhaust it'll be clean since most of all the fuel burns off!

I know in a built up race motor HP gains are amazing compared to standard pump gas. But then again these are high built motors as in my friends Camaro. But for the gain he gets on just fuel its well worth it. And it smells delicious
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:32 PM   #20
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we had a guy with a 2009 mustang gt running at the drag strip that decided to run e85 because of the misleading octane levels and thought it was running great til it leaned out and bang it was done
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:15 PM   #21
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Can not change the compression by adding a different fuel. Race cars run methanol and add the fragence. Both methanol and ethanol are corrosive. And its very hard on parts. interal part tend to rust (cyl, valves, valve guides-not good). Condensation tends to build. Yes the octane is higher but useless if not taken advantage of by higher compresstion ratio. But YES it can be run
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:28 PM   #22
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Tells me that we are too dependent on our little friend oil. And that they make more money on oil to make something else when everyone loves the gasoline.
No, it tells you that we grow WAYYYYY to much crap corn in this country.
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:49 PM   #23
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Few things to touch on...

1.) Running higher octane fuel in an engine that doesn't require it does NOT clean the engine out. It'll actually produce more carbon due to more unburned fuel. Engines are designed to run on the lowest octane the manufacturer built them to utilize.

2.) Running ethanol in the fuel causes a significant drop in mileage. Our gas here does not have a significant amount of ethanol in it (not enough to have a sticker stating there is up to ___% ethanol in the fuel). I do a lot of traveling in IL and I frequently will monitor my gas mileage. While this wasn't done under lab conditions, it's enough to convince me... I would regularly get around 19-20 mpg highway running on near 100% gasoline. My mileage would consistently drop 2-3 mpg when running on gasoline with up to 10% ethanol in it...yet I paid the exact same price for gas at both stations so obviously I wasn't saving any money using the ethanol, but I was spending more on gas with ethanol since I was getting less miles out of the tank. I don't know how running E-85 would compare to running gasoline with up to 10% ethanol, but I know for a fact I wouldn't be seeing an INCREASE in gas mileage and 2-3 mpg (or a 15% drop in gas mileage) is significant enough for me.

3.) Corn-based ethanol is TERRIBLE for the environment...yes, I will give you the fact that it is a cleaner burning fuel for the environment, however you also must look at other perspectives. Producing ethanol is NOT good for the environment. Corn does not go through the same photosynthesis process that most plants go through--taking in carbon dioxide from the air, filtering the carbon dioxide out, and releasing oxygen back into the air. That means all that corn being grown...isn't helping to remove the carbon dioxide from the air unlike other green plants, especially trees. Guess what are happening to the rainforests in South America? They're disappearing! Why? Because corn prices are skyrocketing and farmers down there are cutting down their trees and selling off the wood in order to get into the market growing corn.

Time Magazine wrote a huge article on how horrible the production of Ethanol is...and because I'm really luck in my Google searching...I'll even be nice enough to post the article...it's a really interesting read if you have the time.

The Clean Energy Scam - TIME
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:01 PM   #24
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Few things to touch on...

1.) Running higher octane fuel in an engine that doesn't require it does NOT clean the engine out. It'll actually produce more carbon due to more unburned fuel. Engines are designed to run on the lowest octane the manufacturer built them to utilize.

2.) Running ethanol in the fuel causes a significant drop in mileage. Our gas here does not have a significant amount of ethanol in it (not enough to have a sticker stating there is up to ___% ethanol in the fuel). I do a lot of traveling in IL and I frequently will monitor my gas mileage. While this wasn't done under lab conditions, it's enough to convince me... I would regularly get around 19-20 mpg highway running on near 100% gasoline. My mileage would consistently drop 2-3 mpg when running on gasoline with up to 10% ethanol in it...yet I paid the exact same price for gas at both stations so obviously I wasn't saving any money using the ethanol, but I was spending more on gas with ethanol since I was getting less miles out of the tank. I don't know how running E-85 would compare to running gasoline with up to 10% ethanol, but I know for a fact I wouldn't be seeing an INCREASE in gas mileage and 2-3 mpg (or a 15% drop in gas mileage) is significant enough for me.

3.) Corn-based ethanol is TERRIBLE for the environment...yes, I will give you the fact that it is a cleaner burning fuel for the environment, however you also must look at other perspectives. Producing ethanol is NOT good for the environment. Corn does not go through the same photosynthesis process that most plants go through--taking in carbon dioxide from the air, filtering the carbon dioxide out, and releasing oxygen back into the air. That means all that corn being grown...isn't helping to remove the carbon dioxide from the air unlike other green plants, especially trees. Guess what are happening to the rainforests in South America? They're disappearing! Why? Because corn prices are skyrocketing and farmers down there are cutting down their trees and selling off the wood in order to get into the market growing corn.

Time Magazine wrote a huge article on how horrible the production of Ethanol is...and because I'm really luck in my Google searching...I'll even be nice enough to post the article...it's a really interesting read if you have the time.

The Clean Energy Scam - TIME
cutting down trees to grow corns, thats terrible.
I also dont get why people would spend so much money buying hybrids when they can get same cars with a slightly bigger engine with similar gas-millage for much more cheaper, then use the money to plant more trees.
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:09 PM   #25
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cutting down trees to grow corns, thats terrible.
I also dont get why people would spend so much money buying hybrids when they can get same cars with a slightly bigger engine with similar gas-millage for much more cheaper, then use the money to plant more trees.
Humans have been making ethanol in stills since 10,000 B.C., and pretty successfully based on the liquor market today. Heck you can make ethanol from the algae that grows in a horse trough. I don't get why they're using food to make ethanol.
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:10 PM   #26
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Humans have been making ethanol in stills since 10,000 B.C., and pretty successfully based on the liquor market today. Heck you can make ethanol from the algae that grows in a horse trough. I don't get why they're using food to make ethanol.
would be better to give those food away to hungry people.
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:27 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnlimitedLJ04 View Post
Humans have been making ethanol in stills since 10,000 B.C., and pretty successfully based on the liquor market today. Heck you can make ethanol from the algae that grows in a horse trough. I don't get why they're using food to make ethanol.
I think using corn is the easiest/fastest way to make it with current technology...I think they've shown using algae to make it actually has a POSITIVE impact on the environment...but it's not as easy or convenient as far as I'm aware. It is becoming a lot more popular...I think Exxon (it's one of the big fuel companies anyway) has branched off a part of their company dedicated to producing ethanol using algae. Saw a commercial about it on tv recently.
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Old 01-04-2011, 08:56 AM   #28
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I work for a state that has flex fuel cars and a govener that will do anyting to save a dollar. We are not allowed to run the E85 in our cars because it cost more money. The decrease in fuel milage is more significant then the cheaper cost. Trust me if it was cost effective at all we would be doing it. Plus we would be supporting the ethanol plants that are popping up all over the state.
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Old 01-04-2011, 11:20 AM   #29
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wow...i started quite the discussion. :-P
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:54 PM   #30
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Its all about the dollar. Farmers are broke-gov says grow corn we will mix it in the gas. People have to buy it. And plus people will burn a % more, so gov makes more money farmers make more. I have some friends that have gas stations and thay all say thay make only about .05 cents on a gallon and most of it is taxes. Its all about dollar. I've always wandered why my 93 chevy sub got 22mpg and my 08chevy sub gets 15mpg??? my 97 dodge 1ton got 20 and no one i know that has new dodges get anything close. My grandmother had a 70 ford lincon drove it till 93 when she bought a new one. She said the 70 model got 16-17 till she got rid of it. 93 gets 12-13???? Lots more tech in todays engines and we cant get more mpg??? Im just say'n its all about the dollar

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