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Old 04-25-2011, 11:10 AM   #1
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Four Cylinder Reliability/Durability?

Hi all.

Checked out a 98 Wrangler SE with the 4-banger over the weekend. ~95,000mi... seems to be in decent shape, all things considered.

I know the 4.0 is pretty much bullet proof as long as you stay on top of regular maintenance... does that apply to the 2.5 as well? If not... things I should be on the look-out for? Should I bother with the 2.5 at all?

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Old 04-25-2011, 11:15 AM   #2
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How will you be driving it? If it's just for use around town or for offroading, the 2.5L is fine. But if you have to spend a lot of time on the highway or freeways, I'd definitely hold out for the 4.0L. The 2.5L is just not all that enjoyable to drive when trying to keep up with 65-70 mph traffic, especially in the hills or mountains. Reliability-wise, the 2.5L engine has a great reputation.

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Old 04-25-2011, 11:18 AM   #3
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I have a 97 TJ with the 2.5 and 167k miles on it now. Runs like it came from the factory, just do the regular maintenance and it should last for as long as any other engine. The only issue with the 2.5 vs 4.0 is power with larger wheels. Re-gearing solves that for the most part.

T
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:28 AM   #4
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I have a 2000 TJ 4 popper and I love it. It just don't make the trip to Nashville much (65 miles of 4 lane so I take the Buick) around town and short trips are great and offroad it goes wherever I point it.
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:28 AM   #5
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It's just going to be a daily commuter for the wife. Not really interested in off-roading... just need something with 4WD and that's built like a tank b/c SLC is not nice to cars.

Right now she works across the street from me so we've been carpooling in my Subaru. But once she gets a vehicle she can work wherever... which is the objective of the entire endeavor.

Highways... ehhh. If you haven't been to SLC, we take the highway everywhere. Right now the daily commute is 15 miles of highway and 2 miles of surface streets each way. Does the 2.5 really struggle to hit 65? I definitely don't want her to be one of these yahoos I see every day doing 55 on the interstate when everyone else is doing 75. It doesn't have to be exceptionally quick or anything, just enough to keep up with traffic.
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:31 AM   #6
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As said above, I'd now hold out for the 4.0L since from what you say she'll regularly be in 65-70 mph traffic on the highway. She'd be frustrated with the 2.5L in that environment in real short order.
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:36 AM   #7
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My 2.5 is running it's little heart out at 65-70. If you have a headwind, forget 65 or 70 and pray you can run 55! Wait and find a 4.0
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:51 AM   #8
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I went for the 4 banger to keep me from speeding.Put 200k on my yj with a 4 banger and replaced it with another one. Speed and me are bad for each other. Knock on wood, have not had a speeding ticket for quite a few years. Getting old I guess.
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:58 AM   #9
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Agree with Jerry, I'd look around for a 4.0L. That seems to be the first question people ask, and often times the 2.5L turns people off from buying, so it possibly could be a tougher sell if you decide to get rid of it.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:01 PM   #10
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I doubt we'd sell it after getting it. She's been wanting one of these things for years... just now in a position to make a purchase.

Looks like a dealer near our place has a 98 with the 4.0 that's in our price range. The mileage is a little higher but we'll go check it out.

Thanks.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:07 PM   #11
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I looks like everyone already swayed you against it, but I drive my 2.5L TJ 15 miles of highway to work every day. The highway is pretty flat but I have no problems holding 70mph the entire way. And I'm running 31 inch tires..
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:27 PM   #12
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I drive on regular roads and then up to 75 on the highway to work 11 miles each way. I am running 31's and have no issues doing 75 at all. There are a number of us at work with TJ's and YJ's with the 2.5 and 4.0 and other than going up a steep grade, I don't really notice the difference between either.

The only time I really noticed how underpowered the motor is was when we took a trip to Rifle, CO and I had to cross Vail pass at 9000 feet, I could barely do 50 and got in the truck lane with all the "slow" traffic.

Other than that, I have never really felt the need for the 4.0.

T
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:31 PM   #13
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The problem for the OP is that he lives in Salt Lake City Utah which has a lot of mountainous terrain surrounding it which isn't a good place to have a 2.5L engine.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:41 PM   #14
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The wrangler I currently own was previously owned by my boss. Its a 4 banger but he drove it to work everyday, anywhere from 15-30 miles mostly highway. He didn't have a problem getting to speed and he even towed trailers with weight on it, but if where you live is really hilly id try to find a 6. Me personally its gunna be an around the town driver and mild off road vehicle. Its more then plenty for me
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:48 PM   #15
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Not really interested in off-roading...


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just need something with 4WD and that's built like a tank b/c SLC is not nice to cars.
Dude, I live in Utah--I'm just over the point in Lehi--and I have owned two Wrangler SE 5-speeds. Even at this altitude, the Jeep will maintain 65 MPH on the freeway just fine... except for one possible situation: climbing the mountain passes in a headwind.

My first SE was used by my wife as her daily driver/commuter (sound familiar?). At first she was commuting from Lehi to Orem, and she never complained once about this drive. But then she switched jobs and began commuting up to Murray... which, as you know, means dealing with the point of the mountain twice a day. The point gets a bit windy on occasion, especially whenever a storm front moves through... and driving over the point at 65 MPH into a headwind is impossible in a Wrangler SE that is in 5th gear. Usually dropping to 4th is sufficient, but very very rarely the wind will be strong enough to force you down to 3rd gear as you struggle to maintain 55 or so.

Now this is definitely a worst case scenario. If your wife is staying in the valley, I see no reason to avoid a stock SE. The stock 4.10 gears work well with the stock (read: small) tires and she shouldn't have any trouble keeping pack with the flow of traffic. Besides, it is so great to drop the top and soak up the sun all summer long--this makes a leisurely commute very enjoyable. If on the other hand she'll have to regularly deal with the point of the mountain, or Parley's canyon, or some other steep pass, then I would say it is definitely worth holding out for the 4.0L.

If you want to talk in depth with a local Jeep owner, my work phone number is listed in my sig below. Just ask for Dempsey.
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:06 PM   #16
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I live in Colorado Springs which is a heck of a lot higher and has real mountainous terrain vs those little nubs they think are mountains in Utah.

Just traveling from one end of town to the other can be upwards of 1500 feet of elevation change and I have no real issues with the 2.5. Would I like to have a 4.0, sure but the 2.5 is just fine.

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The problem for the OP is that he lives in Salt Lake City Utah which has a lot of mountainous terrain surrounding it which isn't a good place to have a 2.5L engine.
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:26 PM   #17
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I would just take the Jeep on your commute route or something similar and see how you like it?
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:46 PM   #18
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Dude, I live in Utah--I'm just over the point in Lehi--and I have owned two Wrangler SE 5-speeds. Even at this altitude, the Jeep will maintain 65 MPH on the freeway just fine... except for one possible situation: climbing the mountain passes in a headwind.

If your wife is staying in the valley, I see no reason to avoid a stock SE. The stock 4.10 gears work well with the stock (read: small) tires and she shouldn't have any trouble keeping pack with the flow of traffic. Besides, it is so great to drop the top and soak up the sun all summer long--this makes a leisurely commute very enjoyable. If on the other hand she'll have to regularly deal with the point of the mountain, or Parley's canyon, or some other steep pass, then I would say it is definitely worth holding out for the 4.0L.
Thanks for the info. It's nice to hear from a local.

I don't really think steep grades are in the future for us. We do like to go up to Park City once a month or so in the summer... but that's really all the uphill high speed driving I can think of. If we go anywhere further than 20 miles or so we'll take my car (better on gas).

Hearing what you've said, I'll keep the SE in mind as a plan B. Just found a 4.0 with a little over 100,000mi and judging from the pics it is actually in better shape than the SE we checked out over the weekend.

Also, just to note... I can't find ANY used Wrangler here in the valley that somebody hasn't put bigger wheels/tires on... at least none in our budget.
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Old 04-25-2011, 02:15 PM   #19
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Thanks for the info. It's nice to hear from a local.
No problem. You do realize that once you have the Jeep, I'm going to invite you to come 'wheeling with me... right?

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I don't really think steep grades are in the future for us. We do like to go up to Park City once a month or so in the summer... but that's really all the uphill high speed driving I can think of. If we go anywhere further than 20 miles or so we'll take my car (better on gas).
And with this strategy, an SE will suit you fine.

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Just found a 4.0 with a little over 100,000mi and judging from the pics it is actually in better shape than the SE we checked out over the weekend.
Is that the white one with 107,411 miles on ksl? If so, I agree: it certainly looks clean and is a very good price... maybe too good, in fact. Before pulling the trigger, get the entire VIN and send it to me. Not only will I run a separate title check to verify their claim of a clear title, I'll also run it with Chrysler to learn specifics on its equipment (such as axle gear ratio, etc).

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I can't find ANY used Wrangler here in the valley that somebody hasn't put bigger wheels/tires on...
No doubt. What can we say? Us locals like to modify our Jeeps, even if only slightly.
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Old 04-25-2011, 02:41 PM   #20
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Is that the white one with 107,411 miles on ksl? If so, I agree: it certainly looks clean and is a very good price... maybe too good, in fact. Before pulling the trigger, get the entire VIN and send it to me. Not only will I run a separate title check to verify their claim of a clear title, I'll also run it with Chrysler to learn specifics on its equipment (such as axle gear ratio, etc).
That be the one. PMed you the VIN from Carfax.

The price they have listed did indeed surprise me. It's about $500 below book, and everything else I've seen out here has been about $1000 above book.

According to the dealer's description it's gonna need tires soon... and the pics seem to support that. May be why the price is low.
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:13 PM   #21
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That be the one. PMed you the VIN from Carfax.
Got it. The title check comes back clean. It began life as a lease in Minnesota. When it was turned in, it was sold at auction and was next registered in St George. Then it moved to Kanab, and later to Cedar City. Chrysler's last owner of record "lived" in Wyoming, but only a PO Box was listed as the address. Since the car was never registered in Wyoming according to the title check, I'd look over all the emissions equipment very carefully. The number one reason we see people who live in location A register their vehicles in location B is to skirt emissions compliance.

As far as equipment goes, some features which you can't see in the photos include the Heavy Duty Electrical Group (a plus) and 3.07 axle gears (a drawback for most, though this will promote better fuel economy... well, at least as good as you can hope for with a 4.0L TJ). This Jeep was factory built with a soft top (and full-size doors), so take a careful look at that hard top since it isn't original.

If you want printouts of either report, let me know.

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According to the dealer's description it's gonna need tires soon... and the pics seem to support that. May be why the price is low.
That is one contributing factor, sure. This can be good for you: you can install a set of street-oriented tires for maximum smoothness and economy during commuting duty.
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:42 PM   #22
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I have a 2003 TJ with the 4 banger, and I have no problems doing highway speeds. Sure it takes a little longer to get up to 65. I drive the Canejo grade a couple times a week, 7% incline, almost 2 miles, at 65 MPH no problem.
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:42 PM   #23
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My TJ 2.5L struggles uphill at 55+ but overall it is fun to drive and looks really good.
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:47 PM   #24
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Got it. The title check comes back clean. It began life as a lease in Minnesota. Chrysler's last owner of record "lived" in Wyoming, but only a PO Box was listed as the address. Since the car was never registered in Wyoming according to the title check, I'd look over all the emissions equipment very carefully. The number one reason we see people who live in location A register their vehicles in location B is to skirt emissions compliance.
Will make sure to crawl up underneath it and check the cat and muffler. Though the absence of a muffler would be pretty obvious from a distance. Theoretically... if it didn't have the cat it would be throwing some kind of CEL. Unless you can tune those out with a programmer.

Am I correct in assuming that the dealer would have to have the vehicle inspected/emissions tested before it could be sold to me?

Thanks for the tip on the hard top. I see what looks like some water damage on the back shelf inside the cargo area. Will definitely check for leaks and fitment issues. Raining today too... that's a plus.
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:04 PM   #25
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I owned one it had 40k miles and I live in washington state. It lagged really bad up small hills @ 50mph + It was nearly new. It was tough though I enjoyed it but I went from a built turbo car to that and wasn't happy with the top speed.

I now own a 4.0 and couldnt be happier!
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:17 PM   #26
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Theoretically... if it didn't have the cat it would be throwing some kind of CEL. Unless you can tune those out with a programmer.
You are correct in that some tuners can program this CEL "out" via some fancy tricks. But don't forget: not only does the vehicle have to pass the plug-in computer emissions test, it also must pass a visual inspection.

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Am I correct in assuming that the dealer would have to have the vehicle inspected/emissions tested before it could be sold to me?
Typically yes. Some small dealers will sell cars "as is" and tell you to register it on your own, though, which means you have to inspect it (and repair it to pass if it fails). Another possibility: I've seen places that grease somebody's palm (read: cheat) so that they get a certificate so it can be registered right now... but when you go to renew it and have an honest inspector test it, it fails.

I'm not trying to sound all gloom and doom. I'm just sharing some things I've seen in 13 years of car sales. If you're really worried, take it to an independent shop and ask them to inspect/test it for emissions compliance.
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:26 PM   #27
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You are correct in that some tuners can program this CEL "out" via some fancy tricks. But don't forget: not only does the vehicle have to pass the plug-in computer emissions test, it also must pass a visual inspection.
I've spent my fair share of time working on tuner cars, so I know all about the programming. Just didn't know if ones of that particular generation were programmable or not.

In my experiences the "visual inspection" might be on the state checklist but I don't know of any mechanics who actually do it. Looks like a car... yeah, that's good enough.

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I've seen places that grease somebody's palm (read: cheat) so that they get a certificate so it can be registered right now... but when you go to renew it and have an honest inspector test it, it fails.
Oh it's all about bribery when it comes to emissions and safety inspections. I've accidentally dropped a $20 or two in shops here and there. I've also had my wife take vehicles to get inspected... ah the powers a chick showing a little leg has over Joe Mechanic.

Honestly the only things I really worry about when it comes to used cars are fluid leaks and odd engine sounds. Most everything else is pretty simple to fix.
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:50 PM   #28
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Honestly the only things I really worry about when it comes to used cars are fluid leaks and odd engine sounds. Most everything else is pretty simple to fix.
I agree. Particularly on a Wrangler, repairs and maintenance are cheap and easy.

BTW: I scanned in both reports and emailed them to you as .pdf files. They should already be in your IN box waiting for you.
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Old 04-25-2011, 09:36 PM   #29
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OK... well, looked it over, did the test drive.

A couple of things.

#1: It needs tires... like yesterday. The ones on it are hard and cracked, there is really no usable tread left. Honestly it drove like an 80's pickup... slow speed turns were jerky and imprecise, but it tracked straight going down the road at all speeds.

The tires on it now are 32"... can 32's fit with the stock suspension or would their presence be evidence of a lift?

#2: It's leaking oily fluid from what I assume is the steering pump. The cylindrical hydraulic thing mounted beneath the front bumper... tied into the front end. A good amount of fluid coming from the top of the pump. Possibly busted seals? Easy fix? No?

#3: There is also a small drip of oil coming off the bottom of the pan back by the transmission. I'm figuring this is from an oil pan gasket or the like. It didn't appear to be anything serious.

#4: The clutch was, well, weird. Engagement point was 2/3 of the way up and the sweet spot was pretty darn small. Below engagement point the pedal was tight, but above it the pedal was spongy. Good? Bad? Ugly?

Shocks appeared to be fine. It shifts well without grinding, and the brakes seem well. It holds good temperature, voltage, and pressure. It accelerated smoothly and did not have any strange noises or rattles.

What are your overall thoughts or opinions?
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:17 PM   #30
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I bet you a good sandwich #3 is a leaking rear main seal; which is a b*tch to change on the 2.5L... Cheap part, but you have to either pay someone to spend 6 hours breaking all the rusted bolts holding your oil pan and transmission to the block, or set aside a couple long weekends to do it yourself.

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