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Old 11-09-2011, 08:33 PM   #1
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How much is too much stock driveshaft angle

I just got some Rokmen rear lower control arms to help adjust my pinion angle after my 3" lift. Yes, I got lower instead of uppers because Rokmen uppers don't go any shorter than stock so it wouldn't have bought me anything. I've also installed an MML to help with the angle.

I started with ~1/2" over stock LCA length and gave it a ride. The vibrations were reduced dramatically but now I am getting this loud humming from the rear along with a little vibes

LCA Installed


Driveshaft angle relative to ground


T-Case Angle


Pinion Angle


It appears that I am about 1-2* off with the pinion. I moved the jeep until the t-case/pinion yokes were flat to the ground and then took the measurements off of them (let me know if you have a more accurate method please!). I'm going to try for another 1/4" on the LCAs later this weekend and see what it buys me. I am curious if the angle of the driveshaft might be too steep with the stock setup? I have a feeling the steep angle might be causing the humming

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Old 11-09-2011, 08:40 PM   #2
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the problem with extending the lowers is it pushes the diff into the gas tank, and the track bar into the frame.

keep the lowers at the stock length and get a MML.

read this: What is a CV shaft and why do I want one? - JeepForum.com

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Old 11-10-2011, 04:21 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by UnlimitedLJ04 View Post
the problem with extending the lowers is it pushes the diff into the gas tank, and the track bar into the frame.

keep the lowers at the stock length and get a MML.

read this: What is a CV shaft and why do I want one? - JeepForum.com
I understand the side effects of longer lowers, from what I read this will be negligible since I am just extending the lowers and not the uppers at the same time. MML has already been done per the OP. Ultimately I understand SYE/CV is the way to go but I am trying to find a solution to get me by in the meantime. When I am ready I will do SYE/CV/TT/Rear trackbar all at once and do it right.

A link in the link you provided suggests a maximum driveshaft angle of 15*, I'm unsure if this is relative to the TC/Pinion or to the ground. If that is the case then I am already approaching the limit
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Old 11-10-2011, 04:37 PM   #4
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Check out the Tom Wood website for tips on measuring your working drive angle. You may be surprised to find it is u-joints causing the noise, since your working angle has increased with the new LCA's.
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Old 11-10-2011, 08:57 PM   #5
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The problem is you've made the angle at the driveshaft's u-joints worse which is why it is vibrating.

The rear pinion angle must (!) be parallel to the transfer case output shaft and yours is not.

This is what your rear pinion angle must look like... it must be the same angle as the output shaft coming out of the transfer case. Exactly.
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Old 11-10-2011, 10:49 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikalCarbine View Post
I understand the side effects of longer lowers, from what I read this will be negligible since I am just extending the lowers and not the uppers at the same time. MML has already been done per the OP. Ultimately I understand SYE/CV is the way to go but I am trying to find a solution to get me by in the meantime. When I am ready I will do SYE/CV/TT/Rear trackbar all at once and do it right.

A link in the link you provided suggests a maximum driveshaft angle of 15*, I'm unsure if this is relative to the TC/Pinion or to the ground. If that is the case then I am already approaching the limit
forget "driveshaft" angle. a driveshaft will work at any angle you put it in if the input and output points are aligned properly.

look at the angle of the input shaft and output shaft vs the driveshaft itself. that will tell you what kind of misalignment you've got in the u-joint itself.

the single cardan setup can only take so much misalignment (some say 3 degrees). your angle finder shows a good 16░+ difference.


it works best when there is a small degree of misalignment like the picture shows above.

when you can't make it happen you need the double cardan shaft....
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:05 PM   #7
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I'll try to adjust them that final 2* this weekend and see if it helps
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:33 PM   #8
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That pinion angle sure looks to be more than 2* off from the t-case output shaft, hopefully that is just an optical illusion.
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:51 PM   #9
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? Pinion is about 8 and transfer case is about 10
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:15 PM   #10
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I can't seem to get this quite right. I used Stu's method of pinion measuring with the socket in the u-joint end cap but I can't seem to take the same measurements twice on either pinion or yoke. Any suggestions on accurate measuring? I'm ready to go buy a digital angle finder if it helps
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:42 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikalCarbine View Post
Any suggestions on accurate measuring? I'm ready to go buy a digital angle finder if it helps
one nylon washer, one Nd-rare earth magnet, one HF digital angle finder. accurate every time.

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Old 11-14-2011, 10:05 PM   #12
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I like, where'd you pick up the digital angle finder?
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Old 11-15-2011, 02:51 AM   #13
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Quote:
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I like, where'd you pick up the digital angle finder?

I saw ones just like that at Harbor Freight.
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Old 11-15-2011, 02:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
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I like, where'd you pick up the digital angle finder?
Saw those at Harbor Freight the other day.
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:51 PM   #15
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Picking one up tomorrow, thanks
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Old 11-15-2011, 08:10 PM   #16
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Neither dignital nor sub-degree accuracy is necessary. The below method works fine... this ain't rocket science folks. Heck I don't even need/use an angle finder to set up the pinion angle.

The pic on the left shows how the pinion angle is measured from that rear flat circular spot to the passenger-side of the rear differential cover. That particular location is exactly perpendicular to the pinion angle so holding the angle finder like shown shows the pinion angle directly. The pic on the right is of course showing the drivehshaft angle.
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Old 11-15-2011, 09:09 PM   #17
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Wow thanks Jerry that make's it a lot easier
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Old 11-18-2011, 02:35 PM   #18
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I've been tinkering with it and just can't get rid of these vibes. I went as far to remove the driveshaft and take it for a ride, night and day difference. At least now I know it IS the DS or u-joints. I used the opportunity and aligned the pinion off of the point Jerry pointed out above directly to the output of the transfer case. Using a HF digital angle finder they were within 0.2* yet I still have vibes.. I noticed that the slip yoke has some vertical up/down play, about 0.3* worth when measuring at the slip yoke base, is this normal?

I feel at this point I have a driveshaft balance or u-joint problem, any input?
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Old 11-20-2011, 07:41 PM   #19
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I'm at my wits end with this one now. I've been tinkering with it some more. I tried dropping the t-case skid a good 1/4 to 1/2" along with readjusting the arms and I'm still in the same boat. The weird thing I noticed is that dropping the skid this much only changed the slip yoke angle by ~0.2* I noticed that Jerry's measurement location isn't the exact same from what I am getting directly off of the u-joint (I've seen up to +/- 1*). I've tried matching either location with the slip yoke u-joint with no luck.

With the new angle finder I can get consistently accurate measurements +/-0.1*

I roll the jeep until the slip yoke angle is about 0*


I take the pinion u-joint angle with 2 super magnets back to back attached to the u-joint end cap


Slip yoke angle directly off of the yoke


Wide view of entire setup


Measurement off of back of axle, it says 80.6=9.4*


T-case skid drop


I'm going to try to pick up some u-joints and see if that helps. Finding spicers locally is hell but I found a few shops that carry them but have been closed all weekend.

Any other suggestions?
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikalCarbine View Post
Any other suggestions?
ok, input and output are at 8.9░.

what about the driveshaft itself?

remember this from above?
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is the angle difference between the 8.9░ and the driveshaft greater than 3░?
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:11 PM   #21
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ok, input and output are at 8.9░.

what about the driveshaft itself?

remember this from above?


is the angle difference between the 8.9░ and the driveshaft greater than 3░?
I don't have the number off hand but i want to say the driveshaft is about 16* which nets a difference of roughly 8, looks like I'm SOL?

Edit: I just measured driveshaft angle and it was 19.5, a difference of 10.6* I can now see why dropping the t-case skid is important in this scenario as it minimizes the angle of the drive shaft. As a last ditch effort I'm going to try dropping it the lousy 1" and see if it helps at all. If not I'll spring for the SYE and my brakes will need to wait
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:55 PM   #22
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I don't have the number off hand but i want to say the driveshaft is about 16* which nets a difference of roughly 8, looks like I'm SOL?

Edit: I just measured driveshaft angle and it was 19.5, a difference of 10.6* I can now see why dropping the t-case skid is important in this scenario as it minimizes the angle of the drive shaft. As a last ditch effort I'm going to try dropping it the lousy 1" and see if it helps at all. If not I'll spring for the SYE and my brakes will need to wait
You're not SOL...you need a SYE & CV shaft, a MML or more t-case drop.

That's the point that is explained in the thread I linked earlier, and tried to explain here:
What is a CV shaft and why do I want one? - JeepForum.com

glad you finally got it
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:12 PM   #23
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I'm going to try a large t-case drop and see if it helps for the time being, I won't really be comfortable knowing I have any vibes. In the meantime I begin my SYE/CV+DS research.
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:21 PM   #24
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Rustys Offroad has the Advance Adapter SYE on sale in their clearance section for $190. Lots of places to look, including some vendors on here.
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:23 PM   #25
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A few updates for those who may care, I did several things and finally got rid of the vibes

First up, I replaced my original transmission mount, this made a huge difference at take off, all of the chatter I had is now gone and it feels completely different



Next up I replaced the two u-joints in my rear driveshaft with two spicer 5-1310x (5-785x equivalents). Man these suckers were hard to find locally



Finally I (sadly) dropped my t-case skid a little over 1"


T-Case output angle is now 9.9*


Driveshaft angle is now 14.10*


Rear Pinion is now 10.00*




Operating angles for each u-joint have now been reduced to about 4.1*! That's a huge difference from before She drives great now and this will get me by while I save up for all of my SYE/TT gear (going to run me about $1600 for everything I want). Thanks all for the help
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:54 PM   #26
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great thread. I am having same issues after my 8.8 swap and 2.5" spring lift. Transfercase drop here i come.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:58 AM   #27
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No SYE?
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Old 06-05-2012, 10:48 AM   #28
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No SYE?
No SYE.....yet. Did the tranfercase drop and it helped out alot but still have some vibes but i guess i will just deal with it until i can afford an SYE.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:00 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikalCarbine View Post
A few updates for those who may care, I did several things and finally got rid of the vibes

First up, I replaced my original transmission mount, this made a huge difference at take off, all of the chatter I had is now gone and it feels completely different



Next up I replaced the two u-joints in my rear driveshaft with two spicer 5-1310x (5-785x equivalents). Man these suckers were hard to find locally



Finally I (sadly) dropped my t-case skid a little over 1"


T-Case output angle is now 9.9*


Driveshaft angle is now 14.10*


Rear Pinion is now 10.00*




Operating angles for each u-joint have now been reduced to about 4.1*! That's a huge difference from before She drives great now and this will get me by while I save up for all of my SYE/TT gear (going to run me about $1600 for everything I want). Thanks all for the help
Nice .

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