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Old 07-16-2009, 12:07 PM   #1
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K&N, and FIPK useful or not?

Hello everyone, i was wondering if anyone put K&N filter in your Wrangler 2000 range, and see any difference at all.

Same question is for the FIPK:
K&N 57-1514-1 $284.99 - 57 Series FIPK, Performance Intake Kit

Does it really help 12hp?

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Old 07-16-2009, 12:15 PM   #2
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No, Jerry had a graph showing the problems with K&N products. Now a dry high flow filter system in conjunction with an edge trail jammer has had some claims for better economy and performance at highway speeds. But not enough to offset the cost of the equipment and no benefit off-road and in town.. A good tune up and clean OEM filter is really the best you can do with the Jeep.

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Old 07-16-2009, 12:30 PM   #3
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A K&N is the last product I would install into any vehicle I own. In terms of its filtration abilities, it was pretty well dead last. Here's the complete study ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report but the most telling chart is about 1/3 down the page...

I can't post the chart titled "Total Dirt Passed vs. Time" from here at work but the damning text that describes the K&N's poor filtration is clear...

"The AC Delco filter test ran for 60 minutes before exceeding the restriction limit while the AMSOIL and K&N tests each ran for 20 and 24 minutes respectively before reaching max restriction. In 60 minutes the AC Filter accumulated 574gms of dirt and passed only 0.4gms. After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms. Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt.

Basically my feeling is this... looking for gizmos or bolt-ons to boost your Jeep's performance is like trying to make a Corvette do better offroad. A Jeep is what it is and personally, I don't believe spending $$$ trying to make it faster is is worth the time, effort, or money. If I had a sports car or hot rod, I would feel differently.
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Old 07-16-2009, 06:38 PM   #4
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A K&N is the last product I would install into any vehicle I own. In terms of its filtration abilities, it was pretty well dead last. Here's the complete study ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report but the most telling chart is about 1/3 down the page...

I can't post the chart titled "Total Dirt Passed vs. Time" from here at work but the damning text that describes the K&N's poor filtration is clear...

"The AC Delco filter test ran for 60 minutes before exceeding the restriction limit while the AMSOIL and K&N tests each ran for 20 and 24 minutes respectively before reaching max restriction. In 60 minutes the AC Filter accumulated 574gms of dirt and passed only 0.4gms. After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms. Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt.



Basically my feeling is this... looking for gizmos or bolt-ons to boost your Jeep's performance is like trying to make a Corvette do better offroad. A Jeep is what it is and personally, I don't believe spending $$$ trying to make it faster is is worth the time, effort, or money. If I had a sports car or hot rod, I would feel differently.
There is much misleading information on the web in respect to air filtration including the Spicer report linked to this thread. The people making such claims are not accountable for them and the web enables them to distribute this misinformation at random. K&N does not have the luxury of not being held accountable. K&N has a legal and moral responsibility to the consumer and we take it seriously. See K&N Consumer Protection Pledge for our Consumer Protection Pledge. K&N operates an ISO compliant test facility on a daily year round basis where we test our air filters in accordance with the ISO 5011 Test Protocol to ensure they will protect your engine as well as help your car run better. Furthermore, we are proud to have complete control of our product quality by doing our testing, development and manufacturing in California. Not only have we sold in excess of 20 million air filters worldwide but we continue to be used by many of the top racing teams throughout the world.
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Old 07-16-2009, 06:48 PM   #5
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Welcome to WF KNE. Please give some support and input on your product here.
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Old 07-16-2009, 07:06 PM   #6
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In all fairness, the report is 5 years old (7/04) thus perhaps a more current test using todays products would be needed.
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Old 07-16-2009, 07:25 PM   #7
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In all fairness, the report is 5 years old (7/04) thus perhaps a more current test using todays products would be needed.
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Old 07-16-2009, 08:25 PM   #8
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Everyone has their own "good tune up" ideas, what do you consider as good tune up for these Jeeps?


Thank you

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No, Jerry had a graph showing the problems with K&N products. Now a dry high flow filter system in conjunction with an edge trail jammer has had some claims for better economy and performance at highway speeds. But not enough to offset the cost of the equipment and no benefit off-road and in town.. A good tune up and clean OEM filter is really the best you can do with the Jeep.
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Old 07-16-2009, 08:29 PM   #9
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They must have been monitoring, this is his first post obviously, either he heard from a member about this post, or has been watching etc......

Well I have been in many forums such as vmax bikes, cherokee forums, mercedes amg forums, and some boat forums, everyone swore by them, some of them even told me that they put k&n to every vehicle they own that needs an air filter. This argument is interesting..


wow

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Old 07-16-2009, 08:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post

Basically my feeling is this... looking for gizmos or bolt-ons to boost your Jeep's performance is like trying to make a Corvette do better offroad. A Jeep is what it is and personally, I don't believe spending $$$ trying to make it faster is is worth the time, effort, or money. If I had a sports car or hot rod, I would feel differently.
.
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Old 07-16-2009, 08:37 PM   #11
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There is much misleading information on the web in respect to air filtration including the Spicer report linked to this thread. The people making such claims are not accountable for them and the web enables them to distribute this misinformation at random. K&N does not have the luxury of not being held accountable. K&N has a legal and moral responsibility to the consumer and we take it seriously. See K&N Consumer Protection Pledge for our Consumer Protection Pledge. K&N operates an ISO compliant test facility on a daily year round basis where we test our air filters in accordance with the ISO 5011 Test Protocol to ensure they will protect your engine as well as help your car run better. Furthermore, we are proud to have complete control of our product quality by doing our testing, development and manufacturing in California. Not only have we sold in excess of 20 million air filters worldwide but we continue to be used by many of the top racing teams throughout the world.
I've read K&N's pledge and I'm interested in any input you may have to this thread:
Time for the K&N to leave

As some of these details aren't there; I do my own maintenance (including cleaning and re-oiling the filter. I clean/re-oil my filter often, especially after dusty trail use. I follow the directions listed in the re-charge kit explicitly and the filter both cleans fine, and is well oiled when I replace it. Again, I do not abuse the filter or use it for long durations without cleaning/re-oiling.

The photos you see in the attached link are typical (for me). I live in Southern California and do 90% if my offroad time in dusty or desert conditions.

Looking forward to any input you may give me.
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:30 PM   #12
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I have changed on all my bikes to K&N air filter without any problems. and much better than OEM air filter.
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:37 PM   #13
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Took my K&N air filter out after a short while. It was full of dirt paste. Different people, different experiences. Think it's a matter of where and what you run.
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Old 07-16-2009, 10:00 PM   #14
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lol

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.
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Old 07-16-2009, 10:03 PM   #15
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point made, k&n is no good for jeps offroaders. Period.




I will not off road yet.




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I've read K&N's pledge and I'm interested in any input you may have to this thread:
Time for the K&N to leave

As some of these details aren't there; I do my own maintenance (including cleaning and re-oiling the filter. I clean/re-oil my filter often, especially after dusty trail use. I follow the directions listed in the re-charge kit explicitly and the filter both cleans fine, and is well oiled when I replace it. Again, I do not abuse the filter or use it for long durations without cleaning/re-oiling.

The photos you see in the attached link are typical (for me). I live in Southern California and do 90% if my offroad time in dusty or desert conditions.

Looking forward to any input you may give me.
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Old 07-16-2009, 10:11 PM   #16
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Well then, I have a K&N I can set you up with if you want it
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Old 07-16-2009, 10:48 PM   #17
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I looked at the other thread, and the KN filter I use is just a direct replacement to OEM, not the other type .
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:03 AM   #18
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Remember, paper does not reject ink!

The internet - and this forum - does not reject words.

I had a customer once that removed the filter in his gas analyzer, then complained about the service cost when it quit.
He said "the filter kept getting dirty, so I tossed it."

Think about it.

Yes, in just a few dusty miles a K&N "looks" terrible - where else would you rather that dirt go?

Draw your own conclusions.
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Old 07-17-2009, 01:12 AM   #19
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Rich, look at the photos in my post.

The filter isn't just dirty. The damn inside of the intake tube is dirty.
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Old 07-17-2009, 08:24 AM   #20
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I never liked any of the K&N's i have had in the past. That is just me though. If it lets more air in, it'll let more dirt in. Don't sell me all that mumble jumble wording, spec's, and testing games. If you think you'll like it, buy it and find out for yourself. Others on this thread have, and they have said there peace.
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Old 07-17-2009, 08:51 AM   #21
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I like my Air raid but I don't hit A LOT of dust. If you really want to upgrade something then just get a snorkel and be done with it.
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Old 07-17-2009, 09:27 AM   #22
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My anti-K&N air filter personal opinion is not solely based on e-opinions, friends, what I read on the Internet, or air filter tests like the one I posted above.

In fact, I removed my own K&N air filter 7-8 years ago because it was passing too much crap into my engine well before I even saw that ISO 5011 test of air filters. By the way, ISO stands for International Standards Organization, a highly respected organization that sets standards for lab-quality test procedures, manufacturing, etc. that assures the scientific validity of tests or that manufacturing processes will produce a high quality product.

My own K&N air filter, shown below before I stopped using it, was allowing the interior of my air intake tube and throttle body to become noticeably gritty and dirty, which was ALARMING to say the least. If my air intake tube's and throttle body's interior was getting gritty, then so was the inside of my engine. This was in spite of carefully maintaining it per K&N's recommendations using K&N's "Filter Charger" kit, while I was still convinced K&N's filters were "the best".

I eneded up installing an Outerwears pre-filter (seen below, the black one) to cut down on the crap getting into my engine. Checking a few months later, the inside of the air tube was cleaner but still not as clean as it should have been so I added the second pre-filter from Unifilter. It was only after then that the air tube's interior started staying clean enough to suit me

Eventually I started talking to buddies I wheeled with and everyone was pretty much saying the same thing about their K&Ns, that in the desert conditions we all wheel in, that they weren't keeping the desert dust out of our engines. We all stopped using our K&N air filters about the same time, I switched to a Truefilter which seems to be doing a much better job that I am still running.

Having once bought into the K&N hype, my own experience showed they don't filter well enough to make me happy. They are probably fine for street use in non-dusty areas but even if my Jeep was strictly a street Jeep which it isn't, I still personally will NEVER go back to a K&N air filter.

This pic shows my two pre-filters pulled slightly off my old K&N for photo reasons before I unceremoniously dumped it. If I could go back to running the factory paper element air filter in the OE filter box, I certainly would but I can't because of the OBA compressor that is in the way of remounting the OE air filter box. Without a doubt, the factory style paper element air filter does the best job of filtering the air of all the fine particulates that cause engine wear.

Since the TJ's OE air intake system was already designed to be non-restrictive, unlike many cars air intakes that are indeed restrictive, the K&N's main claim to fame of reduced air restriction is not a benefit for us TJ owners anyway.

I'm sure not going to run any air filter if it takes TWO prefilters over the top of it to keep my local desert fine dirt and grit out of my air intake and engine.

And I sure don't know how anyone could find the ISO 5011's test results of "Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt." "misleading".

Of course all of this is simply my own personal opinion.
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Old 07-17-2009, 09:41 AM   #23
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Remember, paper does not reject ink!

The internet - and this forum - does not reject words.

I had a customer once that removed the filter in his gas analyzer, then complained about the service cost when it quit.
He said "the filter kept getting dirty, so I tossed it."

Think about it.

Yes, in just a few dusty miles a K&N "looks" terrible - where else would you rather that dirt go?

Draw your own conclusions.
I drew my conclusions when my engine started gasping for air because the filter was so clogged after a very short while. I replaced it with a traditional filter and no more problems, and I don't have to check it constantly during the summer to make sure. I had yet to have the issue, like some, with dust and dirt getting past the filter, I didn't give it the chance.

Had I liked the drop in K&N I would have moved on to the more elaborate set up, but I didn't, so I won't. Some people have had good experiences, some have had bad. Everyone has the right to their opinion, and not everyone is drawing their opinion from what others say.
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:16 AM   #24
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my personal experience is with motorcycle and street use , on my zzr 1200, i have kn filter, do all my services myself. i never found dust past the filter. NOW, i put one on the jeep, and will definetly keep a eye on it. if dust go past it i'll toss the filter and go back to OEM.
there is a lots of dust in Vegas...
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:17 AM   #25
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I said: """""Remember, paper does not reject ink!
The internet - and this forum - does not reject words."""""

LOL - that could go for either side of the debate.


Myself, and I won't speak for bothers - I looked at the tiny hole in the front of the stock box and did a little imagining. I pictured a One Liter Coke bottle, then pictured how you could jam 5000 of them through that little hole in one minute! (4.0L / 2 X 2500 RPM).
Sure seemed restrictive to me.

Plus i needed the room to add OBA, winch controls, and a 2nd battery. I went with the Rockette snout and a K&N.

I've read the articles about how they aren't supposed to catch the dirt, and many are against any filter that uses oil to help catch the dirt.

I wonder why the military uses oiled and oil bath filters on quite a bit of their equipment when it's so bad? Maybe it's like my wife says - the military is stupid - they prove it by painting everything drab colors, "don't they know fluorescent and bright colors are in fashion?"

I've done my own form of testing - on others and on mine. I simply run a clean white rag up and down the ducting - if dust, dirt or oil collects on the inside of the ducts, then dirt is getting in. The K&N's leave a little oil inside the ducting, making it even more sensitive to catching errant dirt than a dry duct. Stock boxes seem to be the worst.

Larry, I don't doubt the pictures at all - I certainly wouldn't want my engine to do that (it's not the dirt that got caught, but the dirt that got by.) The only thing I can say is either the K&N had a hole in it or it was a sealing problem.

I don't like the way the K&N's mount on the snouts - the rubber just slides over the snout, then a screw clamp holds in. A screw clamp "puckers" the rubber, often creating a leak. After tightening, I wrap tape around the connection.

So far my clean white rag test (and a good inspection of the element each time - put a light inside and look at the outside) has never shown dust inside the snout. I'd certainly rather have it get ugly on the outside fast than have the engine ingest the dirt.

As far as the "drop-in" filters with the stock box, I'm pretty sure it's more of a sealing problem than an element problem. The drop-ins let air around the sides and corners.

All the tests saying this one is better than that one - some may be valid, some may be distorted or slanted. And, we really don't know the motivation behind the tests, what it's trying to sell, and certainly don't know all the circumstances under it was tested. They'll only tell us what they want us to know (Hmmm, they must be done by politicians!)

Everyone - run that clean white rag up and down your snout - if your filter is doing it's job that rag will be clean. Make sure ALL the connections, ducting, around the filter etc are sealing properly.






Larry, and others that have found
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:22 AM   #26
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""""""I drew my conclusions when my engine started gasping for air because the filter was so clogged after a very short while. I replaced it with a traditional filter and no more problems,""""""

I wonder where that dirt's going now?
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:27 AM   #27
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Rich, no one is telling you that you can't run a K&N if you really want to. WHY you'd actually want to is beyond me but...
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Old 07-17-2009, 10:29 AM   #28
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""""""I drew my conclusions when my engine started gasping for air because the filter was so clogged after a very short while. I replaced it with a traditional filter and no more problems,""""""

I wonder where that dirt's going now?

if you filter was getting clogged then it was doing its job....
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:09 PM   #29
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I ran a K&N on my Dodge Cummins. I serviced it as recommended by the Mfg. I had the same results as Larry. The intake tube was dirty with visible traces of heavier particulates running the walls of the tube. I removed the K&N after about a year and went back to my Wix Rough Service filters.
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Old 07-17-2009, 12:14 PM   #30
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Rich, I always inspect when I clean or maintain. 20 years in the Navy has taught me how to do; preventative, routine and normal maintenance. So, no holes and no "pucker" when installing my filter. My filter itself is just as round and perfect as it was new.

I wouldn't mind my filter clogging up and needing to be cleaned often IF it caught all the crap that my 6 banger is currently having to digest.

K&N's "consumer protection pledge" notwithstanding, I don't have dealerships do anything except warranty work. BUT, if I was the service manager at a Jeep dealership and someone came in wanting warranty work done on their engine for TPS, FI, etc and I pulled their K&N off and it looked like my photos, I wouldn't do the work for free(.)

If you are having good luck with yours, I'm happy for you.

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