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Old 11-13-2010, 09:00 AM   #1
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K&N Filter, no support

Seems that the previous owner swapped out the stock filter and replaced it with a K&N. I'm a newbie to the jeep world, first time owner. Thing is that the filter has no support to keep it in place. It's just resting on top of the rest of the the things. Is this ok? Do they sell a support for this? I looked at several kits, and it seems that all of them come with a plastic cover around the filter, I'm assuming this bolts down supporting the filter. Thanks for any feedback.

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Old 11-13-2010, 09:03 AM   #2
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I would look for a OE cleaner and sell the K&N .

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Old 11-13-2010, 10:09 AM   #3
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T200J, Thanks for your reply. If I may ask, thought that K&N filters were better?
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Old 11-13-2010, 10:14 AM   #4
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K&N's air filter is about the worst there is so far as actually filtering the air goes. Scientifically performed tests proved that quite thoroughly. Once I discovered how much desert dust and dirt my K&N was allowing to pass through, I got rid of it and went back the a paper element air filter. No (!) difference in performance afterwards.

So while their ads claim they are better, they are about the worst choice you could make in air filters if you drive in dusty dirty conditions. Really.
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Old 11-13-2010, 10:17 AM   #5
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Lots of discussion on aftermarket air filters. Most "wheeling" people do not feel the gains (if any) are worth the amount of dirt that a more free flowing intake and air filter allow. I have ran a non-stock air intake and filter for over 5 years with no Known ill effects. I feel it helps my performance and overall gas mileage. However I don't go mudding or off road at much more than a walking pace-hence no dust or dirt in the air. I feel it depends on a persons use and experience with their vehicle and driving habits. Good Luck!
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Old 11-13-2010, 10:23 AM   #6
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One thing few new Jeepers realize is that the TJ's air intake system was specifically designed to be free flowing without restriction. This comes right from the mouth of Jim Repp, one of Jeep's most senior engineers that has been around since the AMC days. Quite a few engines have purposely restrictive air intakes, but the TJ's is fully capable of easily flowing more air than the engine can consume even at wide open throttle and redline engine rpms. Those who feel a performance boost from having gone to a K&N are only experiencing the placebo effect since the K&N is in fact really flowing no more air than the large surface-area factory air filter is fully capable of doing. Pure physics.
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Old 11-13-2010, 11:00 AM   #7
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And the rumor continues that the stock airbox is not restrictive. So said by a Chrysler Engineer that would be fired for admitting the truth.

All that plumbing and restriction is to keep the intake noise down to meet Federal Regulations.

True, K&N may not be the best filtration (and noisier,) but there are much better filter systems that don't try to get all the air through that tiny airhorn funnel behind the headlight.

There are good paper elements that will fit over the end of the K&N snout.

The K&N snout goes across the valve cover - there should be a clamp that holds the snout to the valve cover. Use a couple of hose clamps to secure it.
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Old 11-13-2010, 11:29 AM   #8
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All that plumbing and restriction is to keep the intake noise down to meet Federal Regulations.
There is no Federal reg that regulates air intake noise. Factories quiet them down by speeding up the air flow to make the engines quieter but that's it. If you still want to insist there is a federal reg that regulates the noise level, feel free to quote it.
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Old 11-13-2010, 11:30 AM   #9
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Remove the tube and take a look down your throttle body. Rub your finger on the inside of it and the tube. If there is residue, the filter isn't working. Better yet, take pictures and share them with us
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Old 11-13-2010, 11:51 AM   #10
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With carburated engines, air flow is more significent than with fuel injected engines.

With fuel injected engines, your computer measures the air flow and adjusts accordingly. Other than looking impressive I don't see what the K&N package will give you except more dirt due to less air filtration.

Dirt is what you don't want in your engine, helps it wear out faster.
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Old 11-13-2010, 12:11 PM   #11
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The Feds don't specifically state noise coming from the intake, just overall noise from the entire vehicle. The whistle and sucking of the intake contributes to the overall effect.

Otherwise we'd have loud exhausts etc.

Plus there's always the marketability aspect - some people don't like noise.

The tiny inlet funnel acts as a baffle, the airbox serves as a resonant chamber - just like a muffler works.

Jeep also puts on a 3000 lb muffler - well, it feels like it. It drops the noise level, but it too is restrictive. If the engine can't breathe (in and out,) it can't perform. (Try jogging with that little funnel in your mouth - the engine needs much more air than you do. If you can't breathe enough with it, how can your engine?)

I used the K&N for a long time, and made sure to keep it well oiled. And I sealed the connections with electrical tape to make double sure they didn't leak.
I ran the white towel down the snout every oil change - it was always clean.

Then one day I checked - dirty! It let me down. I could not find where or how the dust got in - no tears or leaks that I could see.

I went to TRU-Flow more restrictive (enough to feel, but not as bad as the stock junk,) but no dirt either. Problem is True Flow no longer makes the filters.

Sure would like to find a centrifugal filter that spins the air, then filters it through an oil or tacky filter. Trouble is all those I've found are for industrial off roaders, graders, crushers, dozers, mining equipment, etc where dust is a major problem - those filters are too big for us.
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Old 11-13-2010, 12:13 PM   #12
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""""With carburated engines, air flow is more significent than with fuel injected engines. """""

Huh?
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Old 11-13-2010, 12:34 PM   #13
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There is no way you actually felt the difference between going from the K&N filter to the TruFlow filter or even back to the stock filter. This is coming from someone who owns the K&N filter. Check out the JP results, you're talking a matter of 2HP on the dyno at most. That's not enough of a variance to directly attribute it to the CAI.

The idea of a CAI on most cars is to make up for the flimsy ho-hum rubber components that flex when pulling in the air. On the YJs and the older XJ 4.0Ls with the rubber hosing, THIS IS A VALID CONCERN. However, the newer boxes are all sturdy plastic.

Post REAL results with real dyno data that is not from K&N.

Not to mention, ALL of these pieces of crap aren't really cold air intakes. It's pulling air in off of the engine. These are simply short ram intakes drawing air off the stock location. If it was rerouted like a snorkel or in the wheel well, then maybe that would be a different story given the change in intake temperature.
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Old 11-13-2010, 01:26 PM   #14
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I have a KN filter on my jeep but it is the same shape as OEM and is a direct replacement. I run KN on my motorcycle as well, and vegas, is really dusty. the KN work really well for keeping the dust out. I dont buy the KN for performances, but just to have only 1 filter that when is dirty I wash, oil and then back in.
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Old 11-13-2010, 01:37 PM   #15
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^ exactly what I DO like about my K&N filter. It's washable and it really cleans up the engine bay area and provides a heck of a lot more working space. Mine hasn't gotten too dusty yet and I'm driving back in the sand filed pine barrens. I do regularly pull it off (takes a minute tops) and wash out the tube to ensure there's no dust penetration but it's been coming back clean.
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Old 11-13-2010, 03:31 PM   #16
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Sold my EMA Cold Air Intake yesterday . My 04 came to me with it and no stock air box . I bought a used tube and air box last week . My 6 Cly thanks me every morning .

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Old 11-13-2010, 04:02 PM   #17
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"""""This is coming from someone who owns the K&N filter.""""" I'm impressed - you actually own one? Others don't?

The advertised "Cold" isn't true, where it gets the air is hotter than behind the headlight.
But less restriction is what makes the difference.

I would run it on a dyno - but I no longer own one - when I sold my shops BOTH of my dynos went with them.

I can't tell the difference? Then please explain WHY with the stock box I had to backshift on mild hills, and now I don't? Goblins?

But believe what you want. Use what you want.
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Old 11-13-2010, 04:06 PM   #18
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"""""This is coming from someone who owns the K&N filter.""""" I'm impressed - you actually own one? Others don't?
I DID have a K&N installed on my TJ and I still own it Rich... but after personally seeing all the dirt that was making its way past my perfectly well-maintained K&N, I wisely moved it out of my engine onto my garage shelf. My engine thanks me every single day.
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Old 11-13-2010, 05:24 PM   #19
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Some times I just laugh at the idea that off-roading is Dusty . I run two Combines in beans and corn and the dust this year is unreal . They run all fall with no change of air filters . Some time you can,t see the combine for dust . We put alot of hours on and have never had a motor problem . Your Wrangler would last 5 minutes in this dust .

Air filters I need them . BANGER
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Old 11-13-2010, 05:42 PM   #20
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Like I said, I was an enthusiast of K&N - It always passed the white rag test. Till one day it let me down. I don't use them anymore, even though I still have several.

But - the point of all this was avoiding RESTRICTION and whether or not the complex stock box muffles noise.

Banger - what kind of filtration do you use?
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Old 11-13-2010, 05:58 PM   #21
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Standard Jhon Deere Paper Filters . At $250,000 a pop you use what they tell you .

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Old 11-13-2010, 06:38 PM   #22
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Not the combine BANGER, your Jeep
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Old 11-13-2010, 06:42 PM   #23
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Sorry I wasn't clear - not your Jeep, the Combine.

$250,000 a pop? you mean the Combine I hope, not the filter. LOL

And the filters certainly are not small ones like we use, are they? Lots of surface area!

The oiled filtration system is not new - WWII Jeeps used them, civilian Jeeps continued to use oil bath filters into the late 60's. My '69 Jeepster came with one. But they were messy and the oil ran out on sidehills.
Oil has proven to be a good medium to trap particles. Since then technology has improved so paper elements are also effective and far less messy.

The drop-in K&N's that go in the stock airbox probably work fine - they are probably at least as good as the paper elements. But they are not going to eliminate or reduce the restriction of the airbox configuration.

I'm not so sure the drop in filters seal properly around the edges on the stock airbox - any type or brand. Those I've seen often show the witness marks as not seating properly. On my 89 Cherokee it takes several tries to get the lid down properly, even then -. That plastic box gets warped.

The conical or cylindrical filters we use on the simple snout is hard to beat.

Buying the aftermarket systems is a waste of money. Simply cut the tube on the stock system and slip a filter over it - your choice, oiled cloth, foam, or paper - simple and cheap. There are lots of filters available - cone, round, short, long etc.
Just make sure it fits tightly on the tube and you seal it - a few wraps of electrical tape works.

You'll immediately feel the difference. And - you'll hear it too, you'll understand why Jeep used the stock box as silencers.
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Old 11-13-2010, 07:25 PM   #24
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I,v changed Filters that had pounds of dirt on them and the motor run for 3000 more hours no problem . A new filter is about 5 pounds after 50 hours 25 pounds . That is alot of dust . oiled filters I have not seen one in years .

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Old 11-13-2010, 07:42 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FINEMNT View Post
T200J, Thanks for your reply. If I may ask, thought that K&N filters were better?
The question is "how much filtration do you need?"

K&N gives you more air, but less filtration. If the level of filtration is enough to keep the engine in good shape for 500,000+ miles, then I'll take the more air...

(And before the pundits go crazy, you must clean the K&N often to maintain the more air part over a paper filter, exponential vs. linear response curve.)
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Old 11-13-2010, 09:13 PM   #26
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And the beat goes on!

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