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Old 10-14-2011, 07:47 PM   #1
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kn intake system

I ordered a K/N intake system for my wrangler. Still have to install. What kind of differences shall I see, feel and hear.

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Old 10-14-2011, 08:00 PM   #2
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I have AEM, sounds good and under normal driving conditions added 1.18 miles per gallon.

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Old 10-14-2011, 08:10 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by chargers17 View Post
I ordered a K/N intake system for my wrangler. Still have to install. What kind of differences shall I see, feel and hear.
There has been enormous debate on this. The majority here on the forums show no improvement in MPG or power. It will sound different however.
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:14 PM   #4
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Return it for a full refund before you open it. Then do a search on this forum.
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:31 PM   #5
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I drank the cool aid and swapped one into my 04 before I even had 300 miles on it..and ran it for the next 60,000 miles.....Took it off before last road trip (4000 miles) and lo and behold got over 1mpg improvement with the stock airbox with K&N filter, and no noticeable difference in performance, in fact the motor now idles a lot smoother... I second the motion , send it back and exchange it for something useful..
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Old 10-15-2011, 04:23 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ESP123

There has been enormous debate on this. The majority here on the forums show no improvement in MPG or power. It will sound different however.
Debate over facts never ceases to amaze me.. I read some info about the CAIDs over at Expedition Portal, and other such web sites... took mine off, and had better performance, and better MPGs with stock box... admittedly , the CAID actually worked on the 2.5 litre, and delivered as advertised, but NOT the 4.0 litre... Like I said,, a raging debate over facts amazes me!!
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Old 10-15-2011, 05:25 AM   #7
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I'm one of the believers that it does improve performance. However, you notice the intake more at higher speeds. MPG's I didn't notice because I drove with a heavy foot when I got mine cause i wanted to hear it. But it does suck up more dust so jsut be sure to clean it out a few times a year.
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Old 10-15-2011, 06:40 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by biker328
I'm one of the believers that it does improve performance. However, you notice the intake more at higher speeds. MPG's I didn't notice because I drove with a heavy foot when I got mine cause i wanted to hear it. But it does suck up more dust so jsut be sure to clean it out a few times a year.
True ,, they do add a couple of horses, but realistically who operates their jeep up around 3,000 RPMS? I very rarely if ever see over 2500 RPMS, ( ok pulling up a get- on ramp on the interstate, I'll wrap it up to get up to speed ) and most trails I'm finessing just off idle.. agreed , they are "cool", and high on the wow gauge,!!
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Old 10-15-2011, 07:30 AM   #9
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If you look at the torque and hp curves that the manufacturers publish, the big gains are all at very high rpm ranges. So unless you do your driving around the redline, doubt there's much difference.
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Old 10-15-2011, 07:42 AM   #10
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Yes that's why they work great in custom racing/ comp crawling applications, used along with tuned exhaust/headers, throttle body risers, power chips, etc etc
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Old 10-15-2011, 08:13 AM   #11
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POP! did ya hear that? thats the sound of the can of worms being opend on the k&n or not debait!!!!
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:19 AM   #12
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How can adding the extra air from less restriction affect mileage when the computer adjusts the fuel to keep the mixture the right ratio?

But during periods of high air demand - Wide Open Throttle at mid range or higher - not just at high R's - the computer senses WOT and goes to full rich. Then it will add a tad more power -= but mileage suffers. It's very noticeable in hilly country.

The stock airbox is also a silencer - Federal Laws dictate how much noise new cars can make. Stock it's a compromise between performance and quiet.

Think about it - 4.0 liters, at 2500 RPM it sucks in (4 x 2500)/2 liters of air = 5000 liters every minute! Through that tiny little hole in the airbox?



Obviously just modifying the intake only does a small part of it. The entire induction/breathing system can always be improved - both in and out. (Intake, P&P, valves, cam, exhaust extraction etc.)

Speed costs money - how fast do you want to go?
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:27 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich
How can adding the extra air from less restriction affect mileage when the computer adjusts the fuel to keep the mixture the right ratio?

But during periods of high air demand - Wide Open Throttle at mid range or higher - not just at high R's - the computer senses WOT and goes to full rich. Then it will add a tad more power -= but mileage suffers. It's very noticeable in hilly country.

The stock airbox is also a silencer - Federal Laws dictate how much noise new cars can make. Stock it's a compromise between performance and quiet.

Think about it - 4.0 liters, at 2500 RPM it sucks in (4 x 2500)/2 liters of air = 5000 liters every minute! Through that tiny little hole in the airbox?

Obviously just modifying the intake only does a small part of it. The entire induction/breathing system can always be improved - both in and out. (Intake, P&P, valves, cam, exhaust extraction etc.)

Speed costs money - how fast do you want to go?
Because if there is more air (more O2) then the computer must compensate by adding more fuel to keep the ratio correct. It uses more fuel per cycle, therefore reducing mpgs.
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:32 AM   #14
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The ONLY way you will EVER see an increase in power or mpg with this device is if you air fuel ratio runs more lean as a result.

All new cars are self tuning. But they all run slightly different from the factory. This is why results may very.

For those that see improvement I would hazard to guess it is because your tune was rich to begin with.

If you are that concerned, put the jeep on a dyno, buy a chip, and have it customer tuned. But for the 500 buck investment, most will just feel like they wasted their money.

K&N makes great filters, bit the hype on hp and mpg is way over stated and will vary from car to car as well as from model to model.

Some intake devices are designed to purposely trick the car to run more lean. Lean is not a good thing.
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:43 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chargers17 View Post
I ordered a K/N intake system for my wrangler. Still have to install. What kind of differences shall I see, feel and hear.
Before you open the box, read this and realize how you just completely wasted your money.

FAQ - Cold Air Intake - JeepForum.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by rrich View Post
Think about it - 4.0 liters, at 2500 RPM it sucks in (4 x 2500)/2 liters of air = 5000 liters every minute! Through that tiny little hole in the airbox?
Your math seems to assume every cylinder is on the intake stroke every revolution of the crank???

From an air intake perspective, all that matters is if the intake manifold, throttle body and air tube can keep up with the engine's requirements at WOT @ redline.

According to FourWheeler Magazine, the engine uses around 385 cfm at peak RPM. The stock throttle body flows 450 cfm. The intake tube is not a point of restriction either according to Jeep's engineers - the stock intake was specifically designed to be free flowing & avoid water intake when fording. The air flow restriction of the 4.0L isn't the intake, throttle body or air filter assembly...its the cam and the head. So if you want to increase airflow, look at head porting, a hi-perf cam and valvetrain upgrades.

Additionally, in my own testing, I've seen sucking air from an open air element mounted in place of the stock airbox actually INCREASES air intake temps. The stock box sucks air from behind the headlight, where high pressure cold air is being forced in by driving down the highway. The open element placed in the center of the engine compartment actually sucks heat soaked air thats been sitting beside the engine.

The coldest air intake temps i've seen without going full cowl were with the stock airbox, and a ford windstar fender horn jammed in place of the stock bent horn.
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Old 10-15-2011, 10:38 AM   #16
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<snip> It's very noticeable in hilly country.<snip>
This. Times eleventy.

I live in Morgantown, WV. Practically everything here is on an incline. And my TJ has 3.07 gears. Not a fun combo. Anywho, my K&N filter makes noticeable difference for me living here. Think going up a hill with the AC on vs with it off.

My Jeep doesn't have tires that are taller than my wife, and if it did I wouldn't think a little air intake would make a noticeable difference. So in that aspect, sure it's not worth anything. But considering I'm still running everything (else) stock, considering the grade of the interstates here, considering that I end up dropping it into fourth and flooring it just to make it up the hills at an acceptable speed, yeah I can tell a difference. I can tell a difference going up the hills on the back roads when I'm on my way home. It's not like when I put an intake on my old '90 RX-7, it's not putting a whole new engine in, it's not a magic red button, but for me it's helped. YMMV
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Old 10-15-2011, 11:08 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Freddy Flash

This. Times eleventy.

I live in Morgantown, WV. Practically everything here is on an incline. And my TJ has 3.07 gears. Not a fun combo. Anywho, my K&N filter makes noticeable difference for me living here. Think going up a hill with the AC on vs with it off.

My Jeep doesn't have tires that are taller than my wife, and if it did I wouldn't think a little air intake would make a noticeable difference. So in that aspect, sure it's not worth anything. But considering I'm still running everything (else) stock, considering the grade of the interstates here, considering that I end up dropping it into fourth and flooring it just to make it up the hills at an acceptable speed, yeah I can tell a difference. I can tell a difference going up the hills on the back roads when I'm on my way home. It's not like when I put an intake on my old '90 RX-7, it's not putting a whole new engine in, it's not a magic red button, but for me it's helped. YMMV
I'm glad you can tell a difference. But can you explain HOW it makes a difference? Scientifically?
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Old 10-15-2011, 11:14 AM   #18
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The very last air filter I would run on a vehicle that sees any dusty conditions is a K&N. It has been shown in tightly controlled ISO lab tests to be the worst air filter out there so far as actually filtering bad stuff out of the air before it makes it into the engine.

Not to mention that the TJ's OE factory air intake system and filter was specifically (!) designed to be non-restrictive. It can easily flow more air than the engine can consume at wide-open-throttle and redline rpms. There are a number of restrictive air intake systems on various vehicles causing reduced performance and a K&N can indeed improve performance on them... the Wrangler TJ is just not one of them. So when the engine is already getting all the air it can consume, as it does with the OE air intake, making more air available won't do a thing. The only way to make it consume more air than it is getting already is with a supercharger or turbocharger. Just like sticking a funnel in your mouth won't somehow make your lungs consume more air than they are capable of consuming.

Filtration-wise, K&N's air filters are about the worst there are in my opinion For a Jeep that typically wheels in dirty/dusty condtions, it's the last air filter you want to use... at least in my personal opinion.

And in my personal experience, after I learned how crappy they are at filtering air, I ended up installing not one, but TWO pre-filters over the top of my old K&N before my air intake tube and throttle body started running clean again. The photo here shows my K&N with its two pre-filters pulled back to show them. The first layer was an Outerwears and the outer was an oiled foam Unifilter. The Outerwears didn't fit tightly enough to completely pre-filter the K&N's air so the Unifilter was added which did the trick to finally stop the grime that was passing through the K&N you could feel with your finger from forming inside the air intake tube and throttle body.



And yes my K&N, above, was very well maintained and cleaned/oiled per the K&N instructions. NEVER will I ever run a K&N again, I got rid of it as soon as I could find another OE air intake system to replace it with. It has been sitting on my shelf for years now, what a waste of $$$ and effort.

Finally, here is just one part of one air filter report. Note the test was performed to ISO standards and was scientifically conducted. Note the last paragraph which I quoted from the report. ... it tells all where the K&N is concerned.



The below text is quoted verbatim from the ISO air filter test...

"In the chart above it’s important to note the different test durations for each filter. The AC Delco filter test ran for 60 minutes before exceeding the restriction limit while the AMSOIL and K&N tests each ran for 20 and 24 minutes respectively before reaching max restriction. In 60 minutes the AC Filter accumulated 574gms of dirt and passed only 0.4gms. After only 24 minutes the K&N had accumulated 221gms of dirt but passed 7.0gms. Compared to the AC, the K&N “plugged up” nearly 3 times faster, passed 18 times more dirt and captured 37% less dirt."
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Old 10-15-2011, 11:59 AM   #19
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I'm glad you can tell a difference. But can you explain HOW it makes a difference? Scientifically?
I maintain and operate a cellular network for a nationwide provider. I'm not an automotive engineer. No, I cannot tell you the very specific exacts on how. All I can tell you is that for me, driving my Jeep, I can notice a difference.
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Old 10-15-2011, 12:15 PM   #20
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I maintain and operate a cellular network for a nationwide provider. I'm not an automotive engineer. No, I cannot tell you the very specific exacts on how. All I can tell you is that for me, driving my Jeep, I can notice a difference.
Unless your previous air filter was clogged, there would be no difference performance-wise after installing a K&N. That's just not how things work, the OE air intake system can already provide more air than the engine can possibly consume.

The Placebo Effect has a lot to do with how performance is perceived after paying $$$ for something advertised to improve performance.
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:00 PM   #21
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What's the general consensus on the throttle-body spacer? I still have the Mopa CAI and throttle-body spacer on my Jeep. Had I read more about CAI intakes and the poor reviews, I don't think I would have spent the $300. Well, at least I have the still have the stock air intake.
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:03 PM   #22
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What's the general consensus on the throttle-body spacer? I still have the Mopa CAI and throttle-body spacer on my Jeep. Had I read more about CAI intakes and the poor reviews, I don't think I would have spent the $300. Well, at least I have the still have the stock air intake.
Throttle body spacers do nothing unless it's a carbureted or throttle body injected engine. In the case of the Wranglers port injected engine it does nothing.
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Old 10-15-2011, 02:12 PM   #23
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Throttle body spacers do nothing unless it's a carbureted or throttle body injected engine. In the case of the Wranglers port injected engine it does nothing.
X2. The only thing passing through the TJ's throttle body is plain air... no fuel at all. Making that air path 1" longer does nothing.
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Old 10-15-2011, 03:44 PM   #24
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Notice that comparison "study" is using mostly filters that are no longer in existence, and all are for a diesel truck - not a Jeep. Even the type of dirt used in the test is different for Diesel testing. Check out the filter part numbers!

And - it's presented like it was a government test - not true. Tested by a private industry trying to sell something. Read the entire story on the internet!


The downfall of all aftermarket filters - even the stock box, - if you don't take the extra effort to make sure ALL the connections are leak proof - it will leak dirt in.

Simple to see if it will do anything for yours - simply remove the stock tube between the TB and filter box, take it for a quick test drive. See if YOURS has more pep. Costs nothing and proves how restriction affects YOURS!

And - listen to the extra noise - that's why the Fed regulations.
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Old 10-15-2011, 05:19 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford
Unless your previous air filter was clogged, there would be no difference performance-wise after installing a K&N. That's just not how things work, the OE air intake system can already provide more air than the engine can possibly consume.

The Placebo Effect has a lot to do with how performance is perceived after paying $$$ for something advertised to improve performance.
When I was researching an intake before I made my purchase I saw other threads where you said similar enough things. I bought from Amazon, they've always been great about returns for everything else. I figured that if I didn't notice anything, like you and others said I wouldn't, I'd return the thing. But I'm still using it. Because, like I said, it helped a little for me and my otherwise stock jeep. Was yours close to stock when you ran one?
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Old 10-15-2011, 08:33 PM   #26
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There is a potential problem with that test. First, if the kn was new, they filter much better with time as they get dirty.

Second, the number one problem with them are users adding too much oil. The oil coats air flow meters and causes problems.

Unless you have a high performance application, I would not bother.

I have run them on cars making well over 500 hp too.

Frankly, for less than 20 bucks for a stock filter, I would just use a cheap one and replace. Oil problems are a nightmare.
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Old 10-15-2011, 08:40 PM   #27
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This is about as good as a discussn as the one I had with someone on here about feeling the difference in performance when you change your oil.... Haha, that was a good one and in the end we both had to respect each others points of view and do what you think is best even if it is in the face of overwhelming evidence that points to the contrary...

As for me, the dyno is the only way to tell if a engine is putting out more power... "it feels faster" is about as good as me saying I can fly but showing you no proof.
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Old 10-16-2011, 04:23 AM   #28
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Second, the number one problem with them are users adding too much oil. The oil coats air flow meters and causes problems.
.
We don't have a Mass Air Flow sensor
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Old 10-16-2011, 05:48 AM   #29
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Really? I did know that. How do they measure air flow? I should look under the hood more carefully.
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Old 10-16-2011, 06:06 AM   #30
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[QUOTE="00tj2"]This is about as good as a discussn as the one I had with someone on here about feeling the difference in performance when you change your oil.... Haha, that was a good one and in the end we both had to respect each others points of view and do what you think is best even if it is in the face of overwhelming evidence that points to the contrary...

As oil deteriorates, gets dirty, and looses it's lubricity qualities, it does rob your engine of it's peak performance. Sorry my friend, it is just NOT my opinion. It is the informed opinion of an entire multi-billion dollar industry, based upon scientific fact. When it comes to torque, horsepower, and MPGs, these folks don't fool around with uninformed opinion, cause it could cost the typical carrier hundreds of thousands of dollars per year..
I drive an 18 wheeler for one of the best fleets in the country, and they maximize every penny.. tests have been, and are continually done, to keep fuel mileage, horsepower, torque, and oil drains intervals at optimum efficiency... It is obvious to the good driver when his truck has gone beyond the established oil drain, ( based upon implementation of said motor, 25 to 50 thousand miles, and capacities, the DD15 holds 48 qts) and all the testing, on board computers and record keeping bears it out. When a truck goes past established drain times, torque and mpg will fall off dramatically. It is science, my friend, and the entire transport industry uses the science to maximize the efficiency of their fleets.. A loss of only 1/2 mpg can cost a company thousands of dollars per year per truck.. So, I respect your point of view, but you are still wrong, as I have the entire transportation industry on the side of scientific facts.

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