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Old 10-06-2008, 07:48 AM   #1
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LCG - Low center of gravity

I thought I'd share some of what I know.

Let's start with the basics, why LCG?
For the crawlers it adds a level of comfort & stability to how the truck works on climbs and off camber crawls. It's not for every one. Mudders need not apply.
Heres a good write up I found explaining how CG affects you and your truck.
Center of Gravity and Roll-Over Angle - Jeepaholics Anonymous

How to define LGC.
I haven't been able to come up with an exact definition due to all the variables involved. Generally I'd say a Jeep with less than 4" of lift and a tire larger than 35". Then again 33's on no lift could be an LCG build also. I like to shoot for an overall height at the windshield of less then 6'2"
It just depends on the ratio of lift to tire size. For years the recommendation for lift has been 1" of lift for every 1" of tire size over 30". I've found that 1/2" per inch can be successfully run. This would be a good height ratio for an LCG rig.

How to build an LCG rig;
First you have to consider wheel travel. Up travel isn't nearly as important as down travel. Bump stop the up travel to keep the tires out of the fenders. Make everything adjustable and flexible to increase down travel. There is one major drawback to this theory. Fast driving and bumps in the road. You'll increase the harshness in the ride and feel them more.
As you increase down, there come more problems. At a certain point we run into useless flex.(read up Max. Flex vs. Useful Flex and The Anti-rock - JeepForum.com ) since this can be easily over come with current products. I'll be quiet on the topic.

Tube fenders;
Not all tube fender are created equal. Certain vendors have taken this into account and other are going for the tube fender "look" without the performance.
For a tube fender to be effective in a LCG build it has to open the back of the wheel well so the tire can turn. Keeping the wheel well stock-ish won't work. Look at pictures of all the different brands you'll see what I mean at the intersection of the fender and rocker. T&T and Rockmen and Rev111 are some of the best.

Rear wheel wells.
Yes you might need to trim slightly. I've fit up to a 37 in the rear wheel well with adjustable control arms to recenter the axle.

The dirty under belly;
This is where a LCG build can make up the most effective ground clearance. TUCK IT ALL UP. The flatter the better. Just a tummy tuck can gain you 2+" of ground clearance.

Advanced suspension;
This is an area that I could talk about verbally for hours but I suck at writing. Long arms, roll centers, 3 or 4 link, coil overs, air shocks, limit straps, suck down winches, comp cuts, wheel base stretch. it's all part of the equation and what you want to build.

Can the look be built for the mall? sure.


Please feel free to add to the thread with some builds and specs.

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Old 10-07-2008, 01:01 AM   #2
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wow exactly what ive been wanting to do with my rig

tube fenders, tummy tuck, 33's

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Old 10-07-2008, 01:05 AM   #3
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MATH?! Dammit, now I have to do math?!

What do you know?! My teacher was right! DAMMIT!!!


Lol... Thanks for the link.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:54 PM   #4
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what tummy tuck do you recommend?
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:13 PM   #5
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I'm running a Terra because I need the drop. Making your own from flat steel is the best. 33 engineering is highly regarded, so is the Nth/AEV.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:01 PM   #6
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If you are going to realistically wheel a full bodied Wrangler using LCG principles you better try and tuck the running gear up even with the frame rails or you are going to still have clearance issues on any rocks or ledges.

There is a place for LCG when it's all said and done, but there is also a LOT of work involved to get it done right. Read the threads about it on Pirate and see how much time, money, and effort those guys are putting in to do it all right. Most of them don't have much stock floor board left after they are done.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:06 PM   #7
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If you are going to realistically wheel a full bodied Wrangler using LCG principles you better try and tuck the running gear up even with the frame rails or you are going to still have clearance issues on any rocks or ledges.

There is a place for LCG when it's all said and done, but there is also a LOT of work involved to get it done right. Read the threads about it on Pirate and see how much time, money, and effort those guys are putting in to do it all right. Most of them don't have much stock floor board left after they are done.
You'ld be surprised what a 20' belly height can clear. You can make some serious handling changes to a regular TJ with LCG principals. It will perform better in off camber side hills.
Most of those guys are also not competing and having to live within a rule book.
The old standard of 1" of lift for 1" of tire size is out the window.

see you at KOH
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:14 PM   #8
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You'ld be surprised what a 20' belly height can clear. You can make some serious handling changes to a regular TJ with LCG principals. It will perform better in off camber side hills.
Most of those guys are also not competing and having to live within a rule book.
The old standard of 1" of lift for 1" of tire size is out the window.

see you at KOH
I won't say you are wrong because you aren't. However in my situation I know my rig and I know exactly how stable it is with the stretched wheelbase. I'd put it up stability wise with most rigs. Moon buggies can get away with it because they have stupid amounts of travel and probably only about 15 inches of belly pan total.

I think my belly clearance is somewhere around 23 inches with 104" Wheelbase on 37's.

And yeah I just might see you at KOH.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:18 PM   #9
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I won't say you are wrong because you aren't. However in my situation I know my rig and I know exactly how stable it is with the stretched wheelbase. I'd put it up stability wise with most rigs. Moon buggies can get away with it because they have stupid amounts of travel and probably only about 15 inches of belly pan total.

I think my belly clearance is somewhere around 23 inches with 104" Wheelbase on 37's.
realistically a regular Jeeper isn't going to go for a 104 and 37's on his first build. He'll work up to that in a few years. If the seed can get planted early, he might end up with a less top heavy rig that out performs his buddy sky high monster.
I've been on this build platform for a few years now and it works in the size rigs I deal with <98" WB and 37's or less. Also, I worte this awhile back for the JF crowd.

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Old 10-07-2008, 08:33 PM   #10
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realistically a regular Jeeper isn't going to go for a 104 and 37's on his first build. He'll work up to that in a few years. If the seed can get planted early, he might end up with a less top heavy rig that out performs his buddy sky high monster.
I've been on this build platform for a few years now and it works in the size rigs I deal with <98" WB and 37's or less. Also, I worte this awhile back for the JF crowd.

Hers my junk
I also can't disagree with you on these comments either. I must've totally missed the point of this thread. Yes you are definitely right. Gone are the days of 10" of lift to run 40's, but I also don't think it's realistic for a stock suspension rig to run 40's with no lift and only trimming. Some where in between is a happy medium.

Here's mine how it sat up until a few weeks ago. It's down right now for 60's and some more tube work.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:52 PM   #11
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Old 10-08-2008, 12:27 PM   #12
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or, buy an RK long arm lift and go wheeling
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:56 PM   #13
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Yes, yes I know the thread is somewhat old but get over it.

I have a few questions on the subject. I have seen videos of Jeeps doing a trail where some have tons of empty space between the tire and the wheel well, (Jeep A) and some stuff as big a tire under there jeeps as they can (Jeep B).
When you see Jeep A going over a rock, the tire is pushed way up into the fender, but when Jeep B goes over the same thing, its just pushed up a little bit. How do they both accomplish the obstacle just as easily as each other? In Jeep A up travel seems like a necessity, but in Jeep B, it seems, as you say, irrelevant. How does this work?

(Thank you Mr. Clifford for the example)
It looks like up travel is important in this picture.



BTW Never Monday, I'm not arguing, I just want to understand better.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:17 PM   #14
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LCG i where it is at.....i am running 39s with 5.5" RE coils and a 3" body.....looking to drop the body lift off in search of lower pastures but i just dont see it working plus i like being able to get the powerwasher in between the frame and body to clean.....my suspension flexes som much that i can lift a front tire off the ground over 4 feet before another lifts(with limiting straps set to 18"s of travel) which makes it so the opposite side tire is so far into the fender that i would never be able to turn at full flex.....do you think i should stretch it to the front for fender clearance....i have already cut to the firewall and beat the inner fender back....any experienced opinions would help
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:39 PM   #15
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Holy crap! RE 5.5 springs AND 3" body lift?! I need to see pics of your rig.

I don't think I'd ever want to go that tall... even for 39" tires. 4-5" max for me.... then it's cut cut cut.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:42 PM   #16
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u should see how much is cut.....its hard to stuff 39s and still get good flex.....my lcas are almost 4' long so they do not limit any travel and let those badboys go where they want.......the 3" will come off one way or another this winter
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Old 01-04-2009, 12:42 AM   #17
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LCG i where it is at.....i am running 39s with 5.5" RE coils and a 3" body.....looking to drop the body lift off in search of lower pastures but i just dont see it working plus i like being able to get the powerwasher in between the frame and body to clean.....my suspension flexes som much that i can lift a front tire off the ground over 4 feet before another lifts(with limiting straps set to 18"s of travel) which makes it so the opposite side tire is so far into the fender that i would never be able to turn at full flex.....do you think i should stretch it to the front for fender clearance....i have already cut to the firewall and beat the inner fender back....any experienced opinions would help
Post a picture of your rig
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Old 01-04-2009, 06:52 AM   #18
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I have a few questions on the subject. I have seen videos of Jeeps doing a trail where some have tons of empty space between the tire and the wheel well, (Jeep A) and some stuff as big a tire under there jeeps as they can (Jeep B).
When you see Jeep A going over a rock, the tire is pushed way up into the fender, but when Jeep B goes over the same thing, its just pushed up a little bit. How do they both accomplish the obstacle just as easily as each other? In Jeep A up travel seems like a necessity, but in Jeep B, it seems, as you say, irrelevant. How does this work?
You can only compress the suspension until the spring binds. This is removing everything else from the equation. A bump stop should be set here. The shocks and limit straps sized accordingly. Tire size will determine how much body has to be cut away for clearance.

Once the Jeep is up on a rock like in your picture. What's pushing down on the up corner of the Jeep to compress the extra up travel? looks to me to be a waste of extra spring height. Causing the Jeep to feel tippy and possibly inducing a roll or flop.
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Old 01-04-2009, 06:53 AM   #19
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LCG i where it is at.....i am running 39s with 5.5" RE coils and a 3" body.....looking to drop the body lift off in search of lower pastures but i just dont see it working plus i like being able to get the powerwasher in between the frame and body to clean.....my suspension flexes som much that i can lift a front tire off the ground over 4 feet before another lifts(with limiting straps set to 18"s of travel) which makes it so the opposite side tire is so far into the fender that i would never be able to turn at full flex.....do you think i should stretch it to the front for fender clearance....i have already cut to the firewall and beat the inner fender back....any experienced opinions would help
9" of lift with a 39" tire is the old school 1" for 1", not LCG
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:36 AM   #20
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Yes, yes I know the thread is somewhat old but get over it.

I have a few questions on the subject. I have seen videos of Jeeps doing a trail where some have tons of empty space between the tire and the wheel well, (Jeep A) and some stuff as big a tire under there jeeps as they can (Jeep B).
When you see Jeep A going over a rock, the tire is pushed way up into the fender, but when Jeep B goes over the same thing, its just pushed up a little bit. How do they both accomplish the obstacle just as easily as each other? In Jeep A up travel seems like a necessity, but in Jeep B, it seems, as you say, irrelevant. How does this work?

(Thank you Mr. Clifford for the example)
It looks like up travel is important in this picture.



BTW Never Monday, I'm not arguing, I just want to understand better.
you say jeep a and b. i only see one pic. do you have a pic of another jeep doing the same thing with a 2" lift? just curious if i missed something.
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:49 AM   #21
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And yeah I just might see you at KOH.
I'll be there myself this year, though I'll be running one of the checkpoints and not as a competitor. See you guys there maybe.
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:29 AM   #22
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but I also don't think it's realistic for a stock suspension rig to run 40's with no lift and only trimming. Some where in between is a happy medium.

exactly.
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Old 01-04-2009, 11:40 AM   #23
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9" of lift with a 39" tire is the old school 1" for 1", not LCG
i agree withthat statemetn and that is why i am trying to lose the BL.....it performs well now but b/c of the obvious i would like to get lower.......i dont know that i would dream of using a different spring having owned about 15 lift kits and these have by far out performed all the others.....the BL needs to go
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Old 01-04-2009, 11:47 AM   #24
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here is a funny video and some pics of the jeep......mine is the black one......my buddys dog was trying to get in as i was coming down a steep hill....thank god for new brakes

://
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Old 01-04-2009, 12:56 PM   #25
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the red YJ appears to be carrying too much weight for it's spring rate.
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Old 01-04-2009, 12:59 PM   #26
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holy crap, that red jeep scares me. if at first you don't succeed, go faster. i love watching people bounce their jeeps off hills though, makes me giggle, unless i have to help them fix it.
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:48 PM   #27
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you say jeep a and b. i only see one pic. do you have a pic of another jeep doing the same thing with a 2" lift? just curious if i missed something.
I couldn't find a good picture for what I was talking about.
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:28 PM   #28
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I couldn't find a good picture for what I was talking about.
ok, just wanted to make sure. probably cuz you aren't gonna find it.

i don't care how much trimming you do, how is a jeep with limited suspension travel going to climb over boulders like one with good flex will
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:45 PM   #29
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i don't care how much trimming you do, how is a jeep with limited suspension travel going to climb over boulders like one with good flex will
where are you seeing limited suspension travel? we just relocate the center of the travel to a down bias. Total travel remains the same as your lifted rig.
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Old 01-04-2009, 07:04 PM   #30
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ok, just wanted to make sure. probably cuz you aren't gonna find it.

i don't care how much trimming you do, how is a jeep with limited suspension travel going to climb over boulders like one with good flex will
I didn't mean that exact obstacle.

And in the scenario I explained I imagined 2 rigs with the same amount of lift, and one running a bigger tire than the other.

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