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Old 01-21-2013, 10:44 AM   #31
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I've said this a hundred times and I'm sure it won't be the last time.

Arm length is focused on WAY too much. One can build a great or terrible suspension with any length arm, be it 15" or 42" or anything in between. Once you get your level of knowledge to the point it needs to be, you'll understand that arm length is only one minor factor in designing a suspension that works well. There's more to it than arm length and the only reason that you've been lead to believe that 'longer arms will cure cancer' is because of the wonderful world of marketing and the gullible nature of us humans.

Things to focus on--clearance, proper instant center placement, roll centers, roll axis. For those that want to do some in-depth research on link suspension, there's some terms for you.

My arms aren't even close to being as long as they could be. Why? Because they don't need to be any longer and because I value a minimal footprint under the frame of the Jeep.


Triangulated uppers keep the axle laterally constrained and define the rear roll center.


Did I mention clearance? Notice nothing below the axle tubes.


That suspension will outperform any 'off-the-shelf' suspension, costs about the same, and can be completed in a weekend if you're efficient. Before lengthening the wheelbase to 101", I ran a variation of the same suspension with shorter arms and an even smaller under-frame footprint. It consistently outperformed the 'long arm' guys in just about every way conceivable.

Arm length doesn't matter. I promise you, not every 'mechanic' or 'tech' thinks like this, knows this information, or gives a crap. If you're relying on a shop to set you up with a good suspension, you'll be very upset once you are able to recognize the difference. Educate yourself first then decide what to do, otherwise you'll be making a very uninformed decision.

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Old 01-21-2013, 10:48 AM   #32
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Imped, I've seen you rig in a few other posts, very very nice set up you have going on.

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Old 01-21-2013, 10:54 AM   #33
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Ima go with rokmen when I get my lift. Which is in a month or so. Good info on this thread
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:10 PM   #34
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Thanks Imped!

Imped -

Once again, you have provided insight and some direction that was greatly needed. I LOVE the clean look under the Jeep you posted, as opposed to the way Long Arms look.

I will be doing some research on the following: "Things to focus on--clearance, proper instant center placement, roll centers, roll axis. For those that want to do some in-depth research on link suspension, there's some terms for you."

Thank you so much for providing this direction, so I can educate myself and determine what i want, exactly.

Respectfully,
Rufus
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Old 01-26-2013, 03:06 AM   #35
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Yes, it was MUCH cheaper than a $5000. Rubicon Express lift. I have $1500 into the RCS suspension. The Johnny Joints are about $75. for the big ones .and $55. for the smaller ones. Need a total of 8, four of each. The shocks were expensive but you get what you pay for.
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:47 AM   #36
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Imped -

Once again, you have provided insight and some direction that was greatly needed. I LOVE the clean look under the Jeep you posted, as opposed to the way Long Arms look.

I will be doing some research on the following: "Things to focus on--clearance, proper instant center placement, roll centers, roll axis. For those that want to do some in-depth research on link suspension, there's some terms for you."

Thank you so much for providing this direction, so I can educate myself and determine what i want, exactly.

Respectfully,
Rufus
I fix a lot of rigs for folks, everything from installing a simple soft top and changing lug nuts to different colored ones to full on custom built no holds barred do anything rigs.

My number one customers for ride complaints have showed up on long arms. It's pure internet myth that long arms magically solve ride quality issues and the looks on their faces when I let them ride in a well set up short arm rig is fairly priceless.

Like the one above that went from 18 to 40" of articulation, there is whole bunch of the story left out and only a sucker would fall for that recommendation.


There however is a caveat. Very much like home stereo, if you can tell the difference, then get what you like, if you can't, shop at K-mart for your audiophile stuff.

I get some rigs in that ride and handle like crap both long and short arm and the owners are blissfully ignorant and don't care. To them, there is nothing to fix.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:57 AM   #37
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^that it comes with everything, the problem is on TJ's some kits come without NEEDED stuff, drop track bar brackets, brake lines, etc.

LA is a better kit, it sticks geometry into better angles, it articulates better its the best set up. Short arm is a cheaper more weekend warrior set up. for the guy who wants a lift but doesnt have the 2500+ to spend or isnt MR.Crawler, and wants to do the very technical trails every weekend.

What do I recommend? 95% of the people who drive tj's will never ever need a long arm suspension... the other 5% will.... try to not cheat yourself, put on the kit you really need. If you find yourself dreaming of the MOAB, or Hammers, or ____________<entersicktrail> then save up the extra dough and do it right. I HATE paying for things twice

Show me some videos of what the most intense 95% will do.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:13 PM   #38
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I have a 4" short arm lift with swaybar disconnects. I have had the left front tire 44"'s off the ground with all three of the other tires still firmly planted. Tried to push the jeep over and it wouldnt budge. Unless you plan to do some serious rock crawling i dont see the point in going long arm. Thats my limited exper. Food for thought if you will. It was concrete blocks. 5 high and they were stacked on a pallet.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:17 PM   #39
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I have a 4" short arm lift with swaybar disconnects. I have had the left front tire 44"'s off the ground with all three of the other tires still firmly planted. Tried to push the jeep over and it wouldnt budge. Unless you plan to do some serious rock crawling i dont see the point in going long arm.
Serious rock crawling would be a reason to avoid a long-arm suspension in my personal opinion. I ran a long-arm suspension on my previous (stolen) TJ and all my long arms did was regularly get me hung up on the rocks. I'm running a short-arm Currie suspension now and it performs MUCH better on the rocks.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:09 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Imped View Post
I've said this a hundred times and I'm sure it won't be the last time.

Arm length is focused on WAY too much. One can build a great or terrible suspension with any length arm, be it 15" or 42" or anything in between. Once you get your level of knowledge to the point it needs to be, you'll understand that arm length is only one minor factor in designing a suspension that works well. There's more to it than arm length and the only reason that you've been lead to believe that 'longer arms will cure cancer' is because of the wonderful world of marketing and the gullible nature of us humans.

Things to focus on--clearance, proper instant center placement, roll centers, roll axis. For those that want to do some in-depth research on link suspension, there's some terms for you.

My arms aren't even close to being as long as they could be. Why? Because they don't need to be any longer and because I value a minimal footprint under the frame of the Jeep.


Triangulated uppers keep the axle laterally constrained and define the rear roll center.


Did I mention clearance? Notice nothing below the axle tubes.


That suspension will outperform any 'off-the-shelf' suspension, costs about the same, and can be completed in a weekend if you're efficient. Before lengthening the wheelbase to 101", I ran a variation of the same suspension with shorter arms and an even smaller under-frame footprint. It consistently outperformed the 'long arm' guys in just about every way conceivable.

Arm length doesn't matter. I promise you, not every 'mechanic' or 'tech' thinks like this, knows this information, or gives a crap. If you're relying on a shop to set you up with a good suspension, you'll be very upset once you are able to recognize the difference. Educate yourself first then decide what to do, otherwise you'll be making a very uninformed decision.
Its been a while since I have said this but I hate you.... Love your Jeep dude and I am slowly working my way through your build thread over on JF.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:10 PM   #41
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I have a 4" short arm lift with swaybar disconnects. I have had the left front tire 44"'s off the ground with all three of the other tires still firmly planted. Tried to push the jeep over and it wouldnt budge. Unless you plan to do some serious rock crawling i dont see the point in going long arm. Thats my limited exper. Food for thought if you will. It was concrete blocks. 5 high and they were stacked on a pallet.
You're trying to relate a bunch of stuff that has no correlation.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:41 AM   #42
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Serious rock crawling would be a reason to avoid a long-arm suspension in my personal opinion. I ran a long-arm suspension on my previous (stolen) TJ and all my long arms did was regularly get me hung up on the rocks. I'm running a short-arm Currie suspension now and it performs MUCH better on the rocks.

That is what i was looking at getting. Did you do it yoursel?
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:47 AM   #43
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That is what i was looking at getting. Did you do it yoursel?
Of the multiple suspension brands I have installed including ProComp, Teraflex, RockKrawler, and Rubicon Express, my present Currie suspension is the one I did not install. My previous TJ with its Rubicon Express suspension was stolen two years ago & I bought my replacement TJ from Gerald at Savvy with its Currie suspension already installed. However, there is nothing about the Currie suspension that would make installing it, basically a bolt-in job, any more difficult than the other brands I have installed.
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:25 PM   #44
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Hi Imped, you have an awesome jeep. But if I had to read and learn everything to get to where you are and have your skills then my Jeep would never get done. I have to buy my stuff which means I must do my homework as best as I can and then plunk down my money and take my chances. That said my research has led me to having a Savvy 3 inch progressive kit under my rig. It would not be for everyone but because I am disabled and need a lower lip to climb over and after a talk with Blaine I have decided that the ability to lose weight with aluminum arms and a balanced kit from a well respected member of the Jeeping world will have to suffice. I just don't have time to get as smart as you are. Not being a wise guy. It took me a long time to learn race engines. I know what it takes to build a suspension with all the anti dive, polar moments, instant centers, bump and rear steer ad infinitum stuff can take. Some of us will just never get to your or Unlimited's level. And that's Ok.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:15 PM   #45
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Hi Imped, you have an awesome jeep. But if I had to read and learn everything to get to where you are and have your skills then my Jeep would never get done. I have to buy my stuff which means I must do my homework as best as I can and then plunk down my money and take my chances. That said my research has led me to having a Savvy 3 inch progressive kit under my rig. It would not be for everyone but because I am disabled and need a lower lip to climb over and after a talk with Blaine I have decided that the ability to lose weight with aluminum arms and a balanced kit from a well respected member of the Jeeping world will have to suffice. I just don't have time to get as smart as you are. Not being a wise guy. It took me a long time to learn race engines. I know what it takes to build a suspension with all the anti dive, polar moments, instant centers, bump and rear steer ad infinitum stuff can take. Some of us will just never get to your or Unlimited's level. And that's Ok.
Bob
You will be very happy with the stock style suspension utilizing Savvy and Curries parts on your TJ, other then going custom, thats the cream of the crop.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:49 PM   #46
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What if you were jumping dunes? Along with mud and solid dirt. Maximum travel and shock absorption. I was thinking Gen-Right long arm/coilover mount kit and air-bumps. Or is that not optimal? Likely will never leave the D44s and go over 37" tires.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:53 PM   #47
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I never saw a Wrangler I thought was set up well enough or strong enough to be jumped. What I have seen are busted up suspensions and axles from kids who thought their Jeeps were up to being jumped.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:20 PM   #48
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Ah I screwed up another reply....
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:21 PM   #49
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Well guess none of them built it good enough huh.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:47 PM   #50
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Strange cause I've jumped my suspension currently on the Jeep and besides the harshness and touching the fenders slightly it seems to be in good shape. This was only about 2' off the ground. Still impressed by this vehicle. So have you seen a Gen-Right coil-over conversion and long arm bust? I honestly think the Dana 44s are up to the task with the right spring rate and shock absorption. Also avoiding the travel limit of the air bumps would help keep things alive. The front will be quite a bit lighter with the motor I want to swap in as well.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:05 PM   #51
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What if you were jumping dunes? Along with mud and solid dirt. Maximum travel and shock absorption. I was thinking Gen-Right long arm/coilover mount kit and air-bumps. Or is that not optimal? Likely will never leave the D44s and go over 37" tires.
Tony knows his stuff and he built a good kit for high speed and desert in my opinion. I have the 3 link front and 4 link rear kits without the coilovers right now. I go to jawbone, glamis, pismo and Johnson valley all the time and my jeep has handled well with all the high speed whoops.
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:05 AM   #52
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Tony knows his stuff and he built a good kit for high speed and desert in my opinion. I have the 3 link front and 4 link rear kits without the coilovers right now. I go to jawbone, glamis, pismo and Johnson valley all the time and my jeep has handled well with all the high speed whoops.
Thank you for the sharing that first-hand experience! Is there anything you would do different? Do you run Currie AntiRocks?
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:16 AM   #53
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Thank you for the sharing that first-hand experience! Is there anything you would do different? Do you run Currie AntiRocks?
I run antirock up front and GenRight sway bar in the rear. Nothing really I would do different. Maybe buy the whole kit that comes with the coilovers but I like the 6paks so far, or stretch my jeep a little bit, I may do that soon though.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:37 AM   #54
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Looking for this

Strange cause I've jumped my suspension currently on the Jeep and besides the harshness and touching the fenders slightly it seems to be in good shape. This was only about 2' off the ground. Still impressed by this vehicle. So have you seen a Gen-Right coil-over conversion and long arm bust? I honestly think the Dana 44s are up to the task with the right spring rate and shock absorption. Also avoiding the travel limit of the air bumps would help keep things alive. The front will be quite a bit lighter with the motor I want to swap in as well.
There is a very nice gentleman with an awesomely set up race rig that he daily drives. He goes by the name Redlyner.

It's worth a discussion with him regarding how well the Dana 44 front can hold up if you plan on working it hard.
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Old 02-24-2013, 07:28 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post

There is a very nice gentleman with an awesomely set up race rig that he daily drives. He goes by the name Redlyner.

It's worth a discussion with him regarding how well the Dana 44 front can hold up if you plan on working it hard.
Thanks for the heads up!
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:04 PM   #56
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Thanks for the heads up!

I don't Redlyner is on this forum here's his build thread on JF Project REDLYNER: Rock Crawler Driven Daily... - JeepForum.com
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:11 PM   #57
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I don't Redlyner is on this forum here's his build thread on JF Project REDLYNER: Rock Crawler Driven Daily... - JeepForum.com
Was wondering why Search didn't turn anything up. Thank you!
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:06 PM   #58
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I have a 4" short arm lift with swaybar disconnects. I have had the left front tire 44"'s off the ground with all three of the other tires still firmly planted. Tried to push the jeep over and it wouldnt budge. Unless you plan to do some serious rock crawling i dont see the point in going long arm. Thats my limited exper. Food for thought if you will. It was concrete blocks. 5 high and they were stacked on a pallet.

I want to see a picture of this!!!
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:46 PM   #59
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i want to see a picture of this!!!
x2
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:19 PM   #60
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x2
x3 lol

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