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Old 08-14-2012, 07:52 PM   #31
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No top, No Doors. Clearly stated right there. Now if you had your top on and the doors off, your SOL.

I'd fight the ticket first. then fight for the law to be made clearer.
Except for those couple words before about the doors opening and closing securely. The no top and sides have to do with the doors fitting securely.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:56 PM   #32
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I'm a lawyer.

Was your top down?



My read is no roof means you don't need doors. So top down means I don't need doors.

I'm sure you can petition for a rule change somehow. There's no doubt a provision in elsewhere in the Pennsylvania Administrative Code providing for proposing rule changes.

However . . . results are likely to take a very long time--as in a year or probably more. The process will probably involve hearings, drafts and redrafts, public comment periods, etc.

The easier play (I suspect) will be to get the current rule INTERPRETED to allow what you're looking to do. So my recommendation would be to hire a reputable traffic lawyer who expresses a willingness to go after this one a little harder than usual.

In addition to pushing my interpretation of the Rule, I'd expect a lawyer would also stress to the Court at the hearing that the vehicle is MANUFACTURED specifically to allow for the removal of the doors. Surely the Pa Motor Vehicle Dept didn't INTEND to preclude the proper use of stock equipment on vehicles that have already been approved by the Federal Government for use on the highways of the United States. The Jeep Wrangler has long been a staple of the US automotive industry, and every one has had removable doors.

Just my two cents.
All vehicles have "removable doors". Here in Colorado it's very common to see Cherokee owners and other truck owners to remove their doors. Surely not an easy task like the wrangler, but it can be done.

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:56 PM   #33
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This is very interesting. I live in Pa. and have had my doors off many times and had cops right next to me at traffic lights and not had any problems. Where in Pa. did this happen?
...
SHIPPENSBURG PA
1st incident rt. 11. Tires past fenders
2nd walnut bottom rd warning for doors
3rd walnut bottom rd (walmart parking lot!! With my family) citation

ALL three times the same trooper. Trooper Boardman. The only trooper/cop to pull me over. I even passed 2 other troopers and 1 city cop on my way. He is the only cop to pull me over
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:54 PM   #34
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Greenhead, what area of PA were you?
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:14 PM   #35
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Shippensburg ^
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:26 PM   #36
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Gotta love Va, the law here says if its there its gotta work LOL
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Old 08-14-2012, 09:35 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freeskier

All vehicles have "removable doors". Here in Colorado it's very common to see Cherokee owners and other truck owners to remove their doors. Surely not an easy task like the wrangler, but it can be done.
This is like saying all vehicles are convertibles because you can take their roofs off with a reciprocating saw.

And that's of course not true. All vehicles aren't convertibles, and while all vehicles can have their doors removed, that doesn't mean they have "removable doors." The doors on a Wrangler are MADE to be removed, and that's simply not true with Cherokees, etc. Most vehicles also use their doors for structural support, which Wranglers do not.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:11 PM   #38
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You guys need to pick a state to live that offers you a little more freedom.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:14 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Flashole
You guys need to pick a state to live that offers you a little more freedom.
Those are becoming a rarity. "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:46 PM   #40
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[QUOTE="geiman"]It just depends on how the police are in your area.

That should NEVER be an OK thing to say! (I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying its complete BS that it's true)
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:51 PM   #41
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Really?? I live in pa for the 13 years and never had an issue with the doors off I even have driven past cops with the doors off...I think the cop that pulled you over just wanted to make his ticket quota or something
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:10 AM   #42
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I was gonna ask but you answered my question, did you get another ticket but it looks like you got 3. Man that sucks. How far apart were the tickets?
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:31 AM   #43
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I was gonna ask but you answered my question, did you get another ticket but it looks like you got 3. Man that sucks. How far apart were the tickets?
Every other month

1st in april was a warning card to fix tire issue. Had to remove to remove spacers and get inspection shop to sign off and retirn card

2nd was in june was a verbal warning about doors

3rd was august (2days ago) citation for vehicle code pa 175.77 (f) no doors $111

All 3 times same state trooper. I pass other troopers and city officers everyday and not so much as a look. Actually a year ago i was pulled over for going for doing 45 in a 35. (running a little late for work) Cop gave me a ticket and never once mentioned my doors being off. 1st ticket i got in 13yrs. I did have a clean driving record till this.
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:44 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geiman
It just depends on how the police are in your area.
That should NEVER be an OK thing to say! (I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying its complete BS that it's true)
I agree, but unfortunately it's easy to see it's true:

Quote:
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Really?? I live in pa for the 13 years and never had an issue with the doors off I even have driven past cops with the doors off...I think the cop that pulled you over just wanted to make his ticket quota or something
What is really sad is I went to Shippensburg University for four years of college, and over two of them I owned a Jeep. In those 2-3 years, I never had a problem with driving around Ship without doors. My sister-in-law also lives there, so we still get to Shippensburg frequently.

It doesn't really matter where you live, you pretty much have to make sacrifices anywhere. Sometimes I think it would be nice to leave PA, but then you've got other things to worry about. I like the area, the laws concerning guns and some other things are better than most states, etc. Being able to carry a weapon both openly and concealed is more important to me than driving without doors. It would be nice if all police officers had the same view on how to interpret the law, but unfortunately they don't. I'm sure the same problem is seen in many states in more areas than just removing doors on Jeeps.
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Old 08-15-2012, 07:49 AM   #45
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Every other month

1st in april was a warning card to fix tire issue...

2nd was in june was a verbal warning about doors

3rd was august (2days ago) citation for vehicle code pa 175.77 (f) no doors $111

All 3 times same state trooper. I pass other troopers and city officers everyday and not so much as a look.
Damn; did you piss in his garden or something?
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:02 AM   #46
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Damn; did you piss in his garden or something?
I bet he bought an H2...and his wife left him for a Jeeper....a 4cyl at that!
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:54 AM   #47
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I didnt know his trooper from adam. He told
Me the first time that he is the one cop that will pull over a jeep. The 2nd time he thanked me for taking care of the tires. Ive always been calm and civil and respectful during the stop. However last time i was a little agrivated once he handed me a citation. Both for the citation and the fact he let us ( wife, 10yr old daughter and i ) sit in the parkin lot with lights on us for 15 mins as of we were criminals. My daughter was quite embarrased. Completley ruined a family outting. I still didnt act disrespectful rather questioned his opinion on the doors and compared it to a motorcycle. He got cocky and told me my tires are still out past the body and he could get me for that too. I reminded him what said on theast stop and he said they were still out past the body and if i didnt contact the magistrat he Will pull my licence and issue a warrant then said good bye.
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:44 AM   #48
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We had a guy targeting my ole' Coast Guard station and would snag any of us out on the city streets.....He no longer worked there after about 6 months Thanks to my Chief.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:12 AM   #49
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Guys like this give olive bad names just like people who litter and tear up trails give jeepers a bad name. Jeez.
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:52 AM   #50
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You guys need to pick a state to live that offers you a little more freedom.

You mean another country, this land is about to finish becoming a socialist country here soon
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:22 PM   #51
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I live in pa and would have no problem signing a petition I think what happened is BS
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:40 PM   #52
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start the petition..Ill sign it.
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:29 PM   #53
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I'm in Va email it to me and I'll sign it too, or snail mail it to me and ya have my signature, just add an address behind my name
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I am finally on board with obama's hope and change thing. I now HOPE that when its all over I have at least a little CHANGE left.
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:49 PM   #54
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As much as I agree with all of this, we have to stay on topic. Leave the politics out of it or it could (will) get ugly. There is some great info flowing here and it would be a shame to have to remove it from the public board. So I am asking you to please refrain from turning this into a political debate.
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Old 08-16-2012, 02:21 PM   #55
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I didnt know his trooper from adam. He told
Me the first time that he is the one cop that will pull over a jeep. The 2nd time he thanked me for taking care of the tires. Ive always been calm and civil and respectful during the stop. However last time i was a little agrivated once he handed me a citation. Both for the citation and the fact he let us ( wife, 10yr old daughter and i ) sit in the parkin lot with lights on us for 15 mins as of we were criminals. My daughter was quite embarrased. Completley ruined a family outting. I still didnt act disrespectful rather questioned his opinion on the doors and compared it to a motorcycle. He got cocky and told me my tires are still out past the body and he could get me for that too. I reminded him what said on theast stop and he said they were still out past the body and if i didnt contact the magistrat he Will pull my licence and issue a warrant then said good bye.
What a douche. This guy obviously has a small one. This is boardering on harassment.
Good luck man.
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Old 08-16-2012, 06:35 PM   #56
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look up the laws and come up with a few questions that would corner the cop. if he pulls you over again videotape it with your phone and tell him it's just a backup in case there is a problem with his dashcam. cops get flustered when you do this(because it is legal) and they can't pull any BS.i would also have something to record audio and video as a backup hidden somewhere in case he intimidates you into turning your phone off(use an old cellphone or camera).audio only is illegal but audio and video is legal even if it is video of your phone staring at the bottom of the driver's seat. if he slips up you can use that against him and any priors he had against you. fight the law with the law. if it weren't for lawyers you wouldn't need lawyers. I'd sign a petition but there is part of me that thinks that if we bring this law to their attention they will make a definite decision as to whether or not it is legal. right now you can fight it and use the law to your advantage through loopholes. if we argue they might just pass a law saying we can't do it. just my two cents
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Old 08-16-2012, 08:24 PM   #57
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i would also do what lawyers do and ask the same question at least 3-5 times in different ways.if he/she answers somewhat differently during any of these questions their credibility is at risk and nobody trusts someone like that. i like cops but i hate pigs
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:30 AM   #58
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Around Lancaster County we have a couple of town cops that will nail you on fenders and doors, but one of the State Troopers is a Jeeper so he's pretty cool. It really does depend on the cop :-(. I haven't had a problem but I haven't been doorless yet and I do have my relocation brackets for the mirrors for when I do decide to go doorless. I'm waiting for my tires to get me nailed, I'm running 31's on stock fenders and it's close to being too far out. Our local cop where I work likes nailing people on the darkness of the tint on their windows. We had two girls at work get nailed as they were pulling out of our parking lot. So every community has a cop that likes to nitpick on one particular part of the vehicle code.
Good luck and I'll sign the petition if you get one started.
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:56 AM   #59
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PA jeepers, I feel your pain!

One thing I don't understand about the hassle you guys get from running doorless, though, is my Jeep has the filling placard between the visors on the soft top:

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It would seem to me, if I understand the PA law, that since the manufacturer specifically indicates the doors are NOT intended to provide safety protection, their removal should not constitute a violation of applicable statute (which involves the modification or removal of safety equipment, correct?).

Edit- please disregard, I should've read the rest of the thread before I posted, as I see this has already been discussed.

To the OP, I do live in NC, but have a lot of family in PA and will be happy to ask them to call their representatives to support any legislation that supports us Jeepers!
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:20 AM   #60
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HERE is the link if you want to read the entire PA body code. Interestingly, it also provides that fender flares can be no wider than 3 inches!

Unfortunately, the code specifies that you must have essentially OE doors and there does not appear to be an exception.

Since this is a state statute, I think your best approach would be to find a legislator willing to help in getting the code amended. You might also try to find out exactly how the code can get amended. This might take legislation, or there might simply be a body that has the authority to make changes. (I took a quick look at some provisions and it looks as if changes are enacted via legislation.) The petition is a good idea, but I'd start looking for the legislator at the same time.

There are numerous on-line petition sites that make make things easier.
The code concerning the use of doors can easily be interpreted either way, ie, manufactured, or modified. Jeeps are obviously manufactured to be operated without doors. In fact, solid hard doors were long considered an option. The law is not clear at all, and unfortunately will be left up to the judge for interpretation. I dont get how you can say it is crystal clear, because it certainly is not. The mirror law reads very much the same way, and my interpretation of that law reads that one must have two mirrors, one left and one right, "IF" two mirrors were the original equipment on said vehicle.

I have never had any problems in PA, and my experience tells me that when an officer knows you are doing something wrong, but cannot prove it, he will nail you for equipment violations. So if the OP was speeding, or driving erratically, say 3 weeks ago, but the local yokel was busy doing something else, he laid in wait for the OP and and nailed him for what thought he could,,, ie, doors. If the OP has the time and money to do battle with his local yokels more power to him, but I would simply present my case, myself, and hope for the best. Hey, for 500 bucks, and expenses, ( case of black and tan yuengling ) I'll represent him, I've won more than a few traffic violations in PA courts. ( did you know it is perfectly legal to pass on a double yellow line, into the asphalt median ? ) I didn't either till I got a ticket for passing a drunk driver, looked up the specific code for passing, and beat it in court.. Because PA is a commonwealth centralized law goes out the window, and is left to the interpretation of each local jurisdiction. I can't wait to move far and away from this state,,, errr commonwealth....

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