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Old 08-14-2012, 07:27 AM   #1
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Need help starting a no door petition in pa

I was cited last eveing for violating pa vehicle code 175.77 f

(f) Doors. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment. The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side.

As it states i should be aloud to remove my doors on a 2004 wrangler. It was the only reason for his stop and cited me with a $111 fine. I plan to fight this in court but would also like to get a potition started to get this agrivation to stop all together. If bikers can potition for no helmet laws why cant jeepers for doors.

If anyone here is in the legal field can offer advise on how to get this started please contact me here or at greenhead17@gmail.com

Thanks

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:34 AM   #2
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Hmm never heard of such a thing. I have never had a problem in PA and eaither have any of my buddies. That is really weird you must let us know how this goes!

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Old 08-14-2012, 07:39 AM   #3
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May want to start spelling petition properly. Fight it though, and bring in pictures of the labels that say the only point of the doors is keep off the elements and not to keep you in the vehicle.
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Old 08-14-2012, 07:49 AM   #4
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May want to start spelling petition properly. Fight it though, and bring in pictures of the labels that say the only point of the doors is keep off the elements and not to keep you in the vehicle.
X2 forgot to say something about the spelling lol.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:00 AM   #5
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Sorry tried to edit my spelling and the time limit is up to do so!
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:03 AM   #6
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Sorry tried to edit my spelling and the time limit is up to do so!
Lol don't be sorry we all do it!!!
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:03 AM   #7
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You should also get this thread moved to the PA section, you'll get a lot more local people there, maybe even someone from law enforcement to help out.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:03 AM   #8
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A mod Should fix it for you, no worries. I am in this. Anyone with any lawyer friends or any expereince starting or writing petitions would be welcome to help. And you don't have to be from PA, you can be from anywhere if you want to help. We can do this on a state and national level, whatever! Just need some protection for cops who are too bored or whatever...
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:09 AM   #9
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:09 AM   #10
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Jeeps are put through DOT testing with and without doors, hence the warning on the visor about the doors and roof not being safety features but protection from the elements. Another handy thing to know... Jeeps do not have windshields, a windshield defined as a permanent unmovable front facing shield from the wind. Jeeps are equipped with windscreens, defined as a movable screen to deflect wind. Windscreens are in the same class as a motorcycle fairing they are not required by law to be installed.
the only thing you "should" have to worry about is your mirror situation. In most states you are required to have one or two with a clear 200' rear facing visibility.

Bring and know your code when you go to fight it, I would guess you were ticketed by an uninformed officer and it will be dismissed.
** keep in mind I am in Indiana and not PA though... best of luck to you

Ive been meaning to print a copy to laminate and keep in my glove box for the topless, doorless, windshield down days
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:16 AM   #11
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Pa law states one rear view mirror. Either way he was cited for the doors and not the mirrors so.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:31 AM   #12
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HERE is the link if you want to read the entire PA body code. Interestingly, it also provides that fender flares can be no wider than 3 inches!

Unfortunately, the code specifies that you must have essentially OE doors and there does not appear to be an exception.

Since this is a state statute, I think your best approach would be to find a legislator willing to help in getting the code amended. You might also try to find out exactly how the code can get amended. This might take legislation, or there might simply be a body that has the authority to make changes. (I took a quick look at some provisions and it looks as if changes are enacted via legislation.) The petition is a good idea, but I'd start looking for the legislator at the same time.

There are numerous on-line petition sites that make make things easier.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:34 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by SecretAgentMan
HERE is the link if you want to read the entire PA body code. Interestingly, it also provides that fender flares can be no wider than 3 inches!

Unfortunately, the code specifies that you must have essentially OE doors and there does not appear to be an exception.

Since this is a state statute, I think your best approach would be to find a legislator willing to help in getting the code amended. You might also try to find out exactly how the code can get amended. This might take legislation, or there might simply be a body that has the authority to make changes. (I took a quick look at some provisions and it looks as if changes are enacted via legislation.) The petition is a good idea, but I'd start looking for the legislator at the same time.

There are numerous on-line petition sites that make make things easier.
I don't see that as saying you need the door. See that part about modify to no top or sides. Aka removable top and doors of a wrangler. Also my jeep came stock with 4.5 inch flares (Sahara) so is that illegal? The code has a lot that needs addressed. The police also encourage flares to cover tires.

The law is almost always open to interpretation as has happened in thousands of cases before.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:43 AM   #14
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well this is what I was told by a cop, he also said he'd pull me over without doors but that has yet to happen. He said that the only jeep that can legally drive without doors are the CJ's cause they came from the factory with the OPTION of doors. As far as I know you can't buy jeeps now without a top and doors. Just not an option. So the law I read at the time stated that anything that come installed from the factory as you bought it must be included on the vehicle. It was in reference to doors and a few other key parts. To be honest I doubt you'll win but give it a go man, I'd sign a petition.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:43 AM   #15
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(f) Doors. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment. The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side. Tailgates, except on vehicles where the tailgate gives access to the passenger compartment, may be replaced with wood planking, nets or other material that will prevent loss of load. Tailgates may be removed when optional equipment, for example a truck camper, is added.
No top, No Doors. Clearly stated right there. Now if you had your top on and the doors off, your SOL.

I'd fight the ticket first. then fight for the law to be made clearer.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:47 AM   #16
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I'm a lawyer.

Was your top down?

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(f) Doors. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment. The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side.
My read is no roof means you don't need doors. So top down means I don't need doors.

I'm sure you can petition for a rule change somehow. There's no doubt a provision in elsewhere in the Pennsylvania Administrative Code providing for proposing rule changes.

However . . . results are likely to take a very long time--as in a year or probably more. The process will probably involve hearings, drafts and redrafts, public comment periods, etc.

The easier play (I suspect) will be to get the current rule INTERPRETED to allow what you're looking to do. So my recommendation would be to hire a reputable traffic lawyer who expresses a willingness to go after this one a little harder than usual.

In addition to pushing my interpretation of the Rule, I'd expect a lawyer would also stress to the Court at the hearing that the vehicle is MANUFACTURED specifically to allow for the removal of the doors. Surely the Pa Motor Vehicle Dept didn't INTEND to preclude the proper use of stock equipment on vehicles that have already been approved by the Federal Government for use on the highways of the United States. The Jeep Wrangler has long been a staple of the US automotive industry, and every one has had removable doors.

Just my two cents.
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:54 AM   #17
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Thank you for showing up and giving us your interpretation. You said it better than I ever could though my thoughts follow the same lines. I would go so far as to say the side windows and doors would be a modification to the side aka no side. Because with no doors or windows you only have a front fender. A rear fender. And a rocker. Now that doesn't qualify as a side by itself would it? That's probably arguable or interpretable as well. What about soft doors. They are legal but don't protect you. Half doors have half the door missing. Not just the window down but the full half of the door is gone. Is that legal. It's part of the door. Etc.

I agree getting an interpretation of the law from a judge and then using that court ruling as a defense in the future would eliminated the need for a legislature change, right?
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:21 AM   #18
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I have seen an earlier post here regarding this. The OP took the owner's manual showing the instructions for door removal. By having shown that the manufacturer's intent was to make the doors removable, the ticket was thrown out of court. I'm not saying that this will help, but reading up on prior cases may. The argument was that if they were going to cite anyone driving doorless, than the USPS, UPS, FedEx, etc would all be in violation.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:31 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by JDsDream
I have seen an earlier post here regarding this. The OP took the owner's manual showing the instructions for door removal. By having shown that the manufacturer's intent was to make the doors removable, the ticket was thrown out of court. I'm not saying that this will help, but reading up on prior cases may. The argument was that if they were going to cite anyone driving doorless, than the USPS, UPS, FedEx, etc would all be in violation.
Thanks for sharing and good point! Wow. I think he is stacked for court. He might even be able to rep himself
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:41 AM   #20
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Thanks guys and PLEASE keep the comments coming. Thanks also for refraining from bashing ALL law enforcment in general.

It was asked if i had my top on. NO it is in my shed. No top no doors!
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:39 PM   #21
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Jeep needs to make doors an option from the factory...make it a no cost option and it would allow the owners to get around laws like this in several states.

I would also drive the jeep to the courthouse with no top or doors...show the Judge the stickers and make mention that the vehile was dot approved without doors...it has a three inch floor lip which is also required by the state of PA for running doorless. You will win....well most likely.
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:43 PM   #22
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A friend of mine here in SC PA is a mechanic, and he has actually talked with one of the head quality assurance officers about this issue at the Southern Franklin County Inspection Meeting. This is what he had to say as of last November:

Quote:
According to one of the head quality assurance officers of PA, it is in fact 100% LEGAL to drive your Jeep with the top, AND doors removed! This is true for ANY Jeep in which door removal is stated in the owners manual. You do however, have to have mirrors equipped on the jeep, which is also stated in the Jeep owners manual. this means that the vehicle was designed to be driven this way. This is true for all CJ, YJ, and TJ jeeps. I was unable to obtain an owners manual for a JK, so i do not know if it is legal on that model, however if the JK owners manual says anything about door removal, than it would be included.

This is not to say that you may not be pulled over by an officer who is uneducated on the subject, however if you were to take the citation to the magestry, you will win the case, according to the QAO
If it was me, I'd try and fight it and see where you get. I've never personally had an issue, but it would be nice to not have to worry about the possibility of it being a problem.
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Old 08-14-2012, 01:46 PM   #23
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A friend of mine here in SC PA is a mechanic, and he has actually talked with one of the head quality assurance officers about this issue at the Southern Franklin County Inspection Meeting. This is what he had to say as of last November:



If it was me, I'd try and fight it and see where you get. I've never personally had an issue, but it would be nice to not have to worry about the possibility of it being a problem.
^^If true, this is VERY valuable information. Ask you friend if he could give you the name of that quality assurance officer and find out if he'd provide an affidavit to the OP. In addition to all the arguments pointed out earlier in this thread, submitting an affidavit from someone actually working in the relevant field that provides their understanding that this is legal would be very powerful evidence that the officer's interpretation is simply wrong. Also, bring your owners manual (you can download a new one online if needed from Jeep's website) with tabs and highlighting showing that door removal is a stock option.
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Old 08-14-2012, 02:00 PM   #24
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I feel confident now if I ever have to go to court for a ticket like this.
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:14 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTH View Post
I'm a lawyer.

Was your top down?


Quote:
(f) Doors. A vehicle specified under this subchapter shall be equipped with doors of a type used as original equipment. The doors shall open and close securely unless the vehicle has been manufactured or modified to the extent that there is no roof or side.


My read is no roof means you don't need doors. So top down means I don't need doors.
I saw that. I'm reading it differently, though. I read the manufacturing/modification exception to apply to the doors opening and closing securely, as that clause is part of that sentence, not the prior.

Of course, that doesn't make a lot of sense, but who knows what someone was thinking of when they drafted the statute.

In any event, I'd be fearful that a strict reading of the statue requires doors as the first sentence stands alone.

Just my thoughts . . .

And . . I agree with your argument . . .
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Old 08-14-2012, 03:20 PM   #26
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I don't think that makes much sense. A smart lawyer for the cop would say that the law states that the modification refers only to how securely the door closes. Without a roof it cannot close securely. However, the great thing about the law is that it can be interpreted many ways. Especially because the people who wrote it had to write it for one generic situation to apply for all vehicles. Because of what the wrangler is and it's design it is my belief that the doors being removed would be a modification to the side which is legal as stated above.
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:45 PM   #27
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OP -

Just curious . . did you have an alternate driver's side mirror installed? Although, I think PA just requires a rearview mirror.
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Old 08-14-2012, 06:55 PM   #28
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No, i did not. But that is not what i was cited for. There is an entirly differant vehicle code for that. I will however be getting a set of mirrors to meet the other code and avoid giving the particular trooper pulling me over for a forth time,
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Old 08-14-2012, 07:43 PM   #29
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This is very interesting. I live in Pa. and have had my doors off many times and had cops right next to me at traffic lights and not had any problems. Where in Pa. did this happen?
Also someone mentioned about the size of fender flares. I am running 33's on 15 inch wheels that are past my fenders and haven't had an issue yet. I am sure it's coming. I guess I will find out at inspection in a few months. I was hoping to resolve that issue with some bushwacker flares but now I wonder if that's gonna be a problem. I sure would hate to have to move just to keep my jeep the way I want it....Gonna have to do some research.....
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Old 08-14-2012, 07:47 PM   #30
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It just depends on how the police are in your area. Like you, I've never had an issue. The first day it was warm enough to drive without the doors this year, I did so and forgot to move my mirrors onto the Jeep. I was a little ways from home when I realized it, but I figured I could probably go one day without seeing a cop. Until I move in a few months, I have about a 100 mile commute round trip. I past 15 cops that day who were watching traffic, and none even gave me a second look.

Because of my long commute, I've passed more than a few cops without doors and with my tires sticking out, and none have given me any issues. A friend of mine (Solman on here) has tube fenders which make his front end look very illegal for PA. He has never had an issue either.

It just seems to depend on the cops in your area.

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