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Old 05-11-2012, 08:32 AM   #1
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O2 Sensor

I have a 97 4.0 with 165,000 miles. I just replaced the entire exhaust system from manifold, to cat, to tail pipe, but left the original assembly line O2 sensors. I have two questions. 1) I don't have any codes, but should I replace the sensors anyway? 2) If I do replace, should I just do the upstream sensor?

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Old 05-11-2012, 10:55 AM   #2
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If they are continuing to send good signals to your ECU, I'd keep using them. When O2 sensors fail, you can usually limp home. If you have to replace one someday, change the entire set of O2 sensors.

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Old 05-11-2012, 11:02 AM   #3
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Keep the OEM ones.
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:04 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Knowledge97 View Post
I have a 97 4.0 with 165,000 miles. I just replaced the entire exhaust system from manifold, to cat, to tail pipe, but left the original assembly line O2 sensors. I have two questions. 1) I don't have any codes, but should I replace the sensors anyway? 2) If I do replace, should I just do the upstream sensor?
Since you put all that money into the exhaust, you can at least pull the sensors and see if they're operating properly. if you replace them, replace the bad one...or better yet, both.

here's some info:
New O2 sensor for MPG improvement? - JeepForum.com
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:09 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by colorubi View Post
When O2 sensors fail, you can usually limp home.
Have you witnessed an actual oxygen sensor failure that caused a significant drivability issue?


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Originally Posted by colorubi View Post
If you have to replace one someday, change the entire set of O2 sensors.
Do you have any data that would support that approach?
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:47 PM   #6
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I haven't had a O2 sensor failure, but have had an out of range signal when adjusting my fuel enricher. It was able to keep running and get me home. Most ECU's have the ability to keep things running enough to do this-the factory calls it a "limp home mode". I once failed to reconnect the electrical connector on one of my O2 sensors and it also managed to run enough to drive to work and back-though not very well.

As to replacing a failed sensor-I would want to replace the set, so I don't go chasing additional failed ones later (I have 4 O2 sensors on mine)
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:09 PM   #7
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Thanks for all of the responses.


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Originally Posted by UnlimitedLJ04 View Post
Since you put all that money into the exhaust, you can at least pull the sensors and see if they're operating properly. if you replace them, replace the bad one...or better yet, both.

here's some info:
New O2 sensor for MPG improvement? - JeepForum.com
Thanks, I searched for posts about the issue and did not find this one.

Right now I am only getting about 250 miles from my 19 gallon tank. So I am getting 13-14 mpg. I have 31's on stock suspension with 3:07 gears.

The sensors were pretty black when I looked at them while changing the exhaust. I am probably just going to order the Denso O2 sensors from rock auto; they are about $35 a piece. I figure it can't hurt since they do have 165k on them.
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:44 PM   #8
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Thanks for all of the responses.




Thanks, I searched for posts about the issue and did not find this one.

Right now I am only getting about 250 miles from my 19 gallon tank. So I am getting 13-14 mpg. I have 31's on stock suspension with 3:07 gears.

The sensors were pretty black when I looked at them while changing the exhaust. I am probably just going to order the Denso O2 sensors from rock auto; they are about $35 a piece. I figure it can't hurt since they do have 165k on them.

I have 3.07's and 31's and I get about 14mpg. I've also wondered if new sensors would make a difference. Let us know if they help or not.
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:50 PM   #9
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Right now I am only getting about 250 miles from my 19 gallon tank. So I am getting 13-14 mpg. I have 31's on stock suspension with 3:07 gears.
250 miles out of a tank is actually pretty good. how much fuel are you actually putting in?...most of the time you can only get 15-16 gallons or so into the 19 gallon tank because the light actually turns on with a few gallons remaining. Use the number of gallons from the pump in your fuel calculations, not the tank size.

You also need to make sure your speedo is calibrated for the tire size and gear ratio. With 3.07's and 31s, it's probably not since thats a larger tire than originally came with 3.07s. The larger tire will show a slower speed and less mileage traveled than is actually the case.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:06 PM   #10
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Most ECU's have the ability to keep things running enough to do this-the factory calls it a "limp home mode".
I believe that the ECU demonstrates its ability to operate without oxygen sensor input every time the vehicle is operated. It's commonly known as the open-loop mode.
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:48 PM   #11
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250 miles out of a tank is actually pretty good. how much fuel are you actually putting in?...most of the time you can only get 15-16 gallons or so into the 19 gallon tank because the light actually turns on with a few gallons remaining. Use the number of gallons from the pump in your fuel calculations, not the tank size.

You also need to make sure your speedo is calibrated for the tire size and gear ratio. With 3.07's and 31s, it's probably not since thats a larger tire than originally came with 3.07s. The larger tire will show a slower speed and less mileage traveled than is actually the case.

Yeah, you're right I didn't even think about that. I can usually only fit about 16 gallons in it, which would give me 15.5 mpg.

No I didn't switch out the speedo gear. After some calculations I guess 31's would actually make a pretty big difference. I think the stock tire size is 27. Going from 27's to 31's is a 13% increase. However, since my tires probably aren't 31 inches any more I calculated from 27's to 30's. That would be a 10% increase, and 10% of 250 is 25. So I guess I am really getting around 275 miles from 16 gallons. That is right at 17 mpg.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:05 PM   #12
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Yeah, you're right I didn't even think about that. I can usually only fit about 16 gallons in it, which would give me 15.5 mpg.

No I didn't switch out the speedo gear. After some calculations I guess 31's would actually make a pretty big difference. I think the stock tire size is 27. Going from 27's to 31's is a 13% increase. However, since my tires probably aren't 31 inches any more I calculated from 27's to 30's. That would be a 10% increase, and 10% of 250 is 25. So I guess I am really getting around 275 miles from 16 gallons. That is right at 17 mpg.
Stick with 31s in your calculation. Whatever it says on the side of the tire, that's what you should use...or if you want to get really accurate use the circumference/diameter directly from the manufacturer of the tire.

See, you're over thinking this. It's as simple as buying the proper speedo gear.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:43 PM   #13
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Stick with 31s in your calculation. Whatever it says on the side of the tire, that's what you should use...or if you want to get really accurate use the circumference/diameter directly from the manufacturer of the tire.

See, you're over thinking this. It's as simple as buying the proper speedo gear.

Yeah, but my BFG AT's have about 35k on them so they have lost quite a bit of tread. I went outside and measured them and they were only about 29.5. I figure 30 is safe because they probably expand a little when rolling.

I actually wasn't even thinking about my gas mileage when I originally posted. I was just wondering if I should replace the sensors because the whole exhaust was brand new. I only started thinking about mpg after I read the link that you posted. It is good to know that I am not getting terrible gas mileage though.

I plan on going up to 33's and installing a sye so I will wait till then to change the speedo gear.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:55 PM   #14
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33's and 3.07's = no power and bad MPG's
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:12 PM   #15
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Yeah, but my BFG AT's have about 35k on them so they have lost quite a bit of tread.
No, you don't understand.

The total tread depth is 16/32". That's brand new. 35k is about half tread, so you've lost ~8/32". So you've lost 1/4" tops from the advertised 30.7" diameter. The tire is still about 30.5" diameter.

Reference:
BFGoodrich*All-Terrain T/A KO

FYI: When you're looking at gearing charts, speedo gear charts, calculating mileage, lift height or whatever...the actual tire diameter is already factored into that. Most likely somebody with 31x10.50R15 (or whatever size) already verified the info presented, and that info is based on the number on the side of the tire. Going back and doing your own special calculation is redundant and unnecessary.
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:54 PM   #16
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No, you don't understand.

The total tread depth is 16/32". That's brand new. 35k is about half tread, so you've lost ~8/32". So you've lost 1/4" tops from the advertised 30.7" diameter. The tire is still about 30.5" diameter.

Reference:
BFGoodrich*All-Terrain T/A KO

FYI: When you're looking at gearing charts, speedo gear charts, calculating mileage, lift height or whatever...the actual tire diameter is already factored into that. Most likely somebody with 31x10.50R15 (or whatever size) already verified the info presented, and that info is based on the number on the side of the tire. Going back and doing your own special calculation is redundant and unnecessary.

What do you mean I don't understand, I went out and measured the tire. I understand it clearly. I am calculating by real world numbers not by the size that BFG says the tire is. I am sure that not every tire that comes from the BFG factory is exactly 30.7 inches in diameter.

No, you don't understand that when you calculate the tread depth lost you have to multiply that by 2 to get the diameter lost. So that would actually be 1/2" lost not 1/4." So that would bring me down to 30.2. Furthermore, I don't know what BFG AT's you run, but I have gone through three sets and have probably averaged 45k. I have never gotten 70k out of a set of AT's. I believe that 30" is a fair assessment of the diameter of my current tires.

I wasn't doing any "special calculations," I was just seeing what the change in tire size was doing to my mpg. I hadn't thought about it before, so I wanted to figure it out for myself. I don't think it was "redundant and unnecessary." I took me all of 2 minutes to figure that out. It would have taken me just as long to find a website that I could punch the numbers into.
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:02 PM   #17
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What do you mean I don't understand, I went out and measured the tire. I understand it clearly. I am calculating by real world numbers not by the size that BFG says the tire is. I am sure that not every tire that comes from the BFG factory is exactly 30.7 inches in diameter.

No, you don't understand that when you calculate the tread depth lost you have to multiply that by 2 to get the diameter lost. So that would actually be 1/2" lost not 1/4." So that would bring me down to 30.2. Furthermore, I don't know what BFG AT's you run, but I have gone through three sets and have probably averaged 45k. I have never gotten 70k out of a set of AT's. I believe that 30" is a fair assessment of the diameter of my current tires.

I wasn't doing any "special calculations," I was just seeing what the change in tire size was doing to my mpg. I hadn't thought about it before, so I wanted to figure it out for myself. I don't think it was "redundant and unnecessary." I took me all of 2 minutes to figure that out. It would have taken me just as long to find a website that I could punch the numbers into.
If you want to get super accurate with your calculation of tire diameter, so you know exactly what numbers to use, measuring the diameter of the tire won't work because some of it is compressed by the weight of the vehicle. You should take a flexible plastic tape measure, lift the axle up, and then directly measure the circumference of the tire without deformation.



...or you can understand thats all a bunch of inconsequential bullsheet, buy the correct speedo gear (which has been verified by GPS) and then you don't have to worry about it.


from: http://4x4xplor.com/speedo.html
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Old 05-11-2012, 06:51 PM   #18
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If you want to get super accurate with your calculation of tire diameter, so you know exactly what numbers to use, measuring the diameter of the tire won't work because some of it is compressed by the weight of the vehicle. You should take a flexible plastic tape measure, lift the axle up, and then directly measure the circumference of the tire without deformation.
Could you mark the tire, drive one revolution, and measure the distance?
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:03 PM   #19
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Yeah, but my BFG AT's have about 35k on them so they have lost quite a bit of tread. I went outside and measured them and they were only about 29.5. I figure 30 is safe because they probably expand a little when rolling.

I actually wasn't even thinking about my gas mileage when I originally posted. I was just wondering if I should replace the sensors because the whole exhaust was brand new. I only started thinking about mpg after I read the link that you posted. It is good to know that I am not getting terrible gas mileage though.

I plan on going up to 33's and installing a sye so I will wait till then to change the speedo gear.

I have the 3.73's with 31's and according to my GPS my '04 TJ / gallons used miles truly traveled...I have been getting 17-19 around town and a little over 20 on the highway @ 55mph.

Not faulting anyone or saying anyone else is doing it incorrectly....but wonder if some of the people that are always talking about horrible gas mileage maybe are not doing the math correctly/ or not recalculating for "MODS"....sure some peeps mileage may not be good because of driving habits, and area of the country hills, traffic etc.

Just wondering.........
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:09 PM   #20
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Could you mark the tire, drive one revolution, and measure the distance?
I fear the variance in the distance between where you mark the tire and mark the ground won't produce the sub micron accuracy necessary. This type of indirect measurement just won't suffice if you want an accurate value.





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Old 05-11-2012, 07:12 PM   #21
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If you want to get super accurate with your calculation of tire diameter, so you know exactly what numbers to use, measuring the diameter of the tire won't work because some of it is compressed by the weight of the vehicle. You should take a flexible plastic tape measure, lift the axle up, and then directly measure the circumference of the tire without deformation.



...or you can understand thats all a bunch of inconsequential bullsheet, buy the correct speedo gear (which has been verified by GPS) and then you don't have to worry about it.


from: Changing Your Jeep Speedometer Gear



Now you are just running around in circles. You were the one that started telling me about 16/32 and 1/4 of an inch. I wasn't trying to get a super accurate figure, I just wanted an approximation of my true gas mileage.

I did lift the tire up and it measured 30 inches, and you can get the circumference by multiplying by pi.

How is it "inconsequential bullsheet" that I want to do my own math. I like to figure things out myself and not just rely on others to do it for me.

As I stated above I am not going to put a new speedo gear in when I plan on going to a larger tire soon.

Lastly, I am not that worried about it. My original concern was if I should replace my O2 sensor.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:18 PM   #22
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Lastly, I am not that worried about it. My original concern was if I should replace my O2 sensor.
Why would you measure the circumference directly by wrapping a tape around the tire, then multiply it by pi? I mean, I know everything is better with pi, but if you measure the circumference directly, you eliminate the usage of our 3.14 friend.

Like I said in the beginning of this - there is no reason to replace the O2 sensor unless it's bad. What you need to replace however is the speedometer gear.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:21 PM   #23
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I have the 3.73's with 31's and according to my GPS my '04 TJ / gallons used miles truly traveled...I have been getting 17-19 around town and a little over 20 on the highway @ 55mph.

Not faulting anyone or saying anyone else is doing it incorrectly....but wonder if some of the people that are always talking about horrible gas mileage maybe are not doing the math correctly/ or not recalculating for "MODS"....sure some peeps mileage may not be good because of driving habits, and area of the country hills, traffic etc.

Just wondering.........

I wish I had 3.73's right now, I bet it is night and day compared to 3.07's.

Yeah, you are probably right, because I thought I was getting 13-14 mpg until I looked at the numbers.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:29 PM   #24
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I wish I had 3.73's right now, I bet it is night and day compared to 3.07's.

Yeah, you are probably right, because I thought I was getting 13-14 mpg until I looked at the numbers.
To be honest I have been to Georgia and what I remember it is HILLLLLY so your mileage should be bad......but man I would love driving around down there TOPLESS!!!
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:33 PM   #25
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Why would you measure the circumference directly by wrapping a tape around the tire, then multiply it by pi? I mean, I know everything is better with pi, but if you measure the circumference directly, you eliminate the usage of our 3.14 friend.

Like I said in the beginning of this - there is no reason to replace the O2 sensor unless it's bad. What you need to replace however is the speedometer gear.

What? I said measure the diameter and multiply by pi, not circumference multiplied by pi.

I don't need to replace the speedo gear anymore because I already did all the math. Also I am changing tire sizes soon.
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:39 PM   #26
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To be honest I have been to Georgia and what I remember it is HILLLLLY so your mileage should be bad......but man I would love driving around down there TOPLESS!!!

After looking at it, my mileage really isn't that bad. It looks like I am getting around 17 mpg.

I am in south Georgia, and it is really pretty flat down here. I used to live up closer to the foothills.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:10 PM   #27
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What? I said measure the diameter and multiply by pi, not circumference multiplied by pi.

I don't need to replace the speedo gear anymore because I already did all the math. Also I am changing tire sizes soon.
It's better explained here:

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Old 05-11-2012, 09:40 PM   #28
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Now that started my weekend off right!

Outstanding.
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Old 05-12-2012, 11:35 PM   #29
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I fear the variance in the distance between where you mark the tire and mark the ground won't produce the sub micron accuracy necessary. This type of indirect measurement just won't suffice if you want an accurate value.





So, a tape measure produces sub micron accuracy?
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Old 05-13-2012, 08:34 AM   #30
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So, a tape measure produces sub micron accuracy?
glad somebody picked up on a attempted sarcasm.

he said he measured diameter*pi, i was trying to sarcastically suggest that wouldn't be accurate enough, and directly measuring the circumference would be better, and you wouldn't have to deal with the rounding error of pi. not that it matters at all

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