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Old 09-23-2010, 11:37 AM   #1
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Premium believer.

I switched to premium a long time ago when I was driving an old f-150. The engine would ping and rattle like crazy when I would lay into the peddle. I decided I was going to make the switch even if it was an old beater truck. What a difference some gas can make. After a couple tanks that thing sounded like a strong, clean motor again. No ping, no rattle and got better throttle response. I know there are people who would say don't waste your money but I only give my jeep the best period. So what's the opinion of the wrangler forum on this issue. Good , bad effects, etc.

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Old 09-23-2010, 11:49 AM   #2
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For an engine designed to run on 87 octane, there is zero... nada, none, zip... benefit to running a higher octane.

A few facts about octane and what it is/does...

A gallon of 87 octane has exactly the same energy content 93 octane does.

Octane's sole purpose is to make the gasoline harder to ignite, it slows its burn rate too. Octane is added to gas solely to help the gasoline resist premature ignition/pinging/detonation from too much compression. High compression engines are the only engines that need more octane than is contained in 87 octane gasoline.

Higher octane fuels contain no more fuel injector cleaning additives than do 87 octane fuels. The gasoline manufacturers just imply/hint that they do to try to convince you to buy the higher octane/more expensive fuel than is needed.

A higher octane gasoline than your engine requires can actually leave deposits behind since it burns slower and is harder to ignite.

A higher amount of octane will have zero effect on mpg.

Only SOME engines can use higher levels of octane to good effect. Those engines include high compression engines, and those with knock-sensors that can advance the engine timing to the point of ping/knock then retard the timing back slightly to no knock/ping for better performance. The 4.0L engine does not have a knock sensor nor is it a high compression engine.

When running a higher than recommended octane cures a bad pinging or detonation issue, that is a clear indication the engine has a problem... likely it is full of carbon which causes premature ignition/knocking/detonation. A small amount of very occasional pinging is normal but persistent pinging when running the correct octane fuel just indicates that the engine has a problem.

The ONLY benefit obtained by running a higher level of octane than an engine was designed for is that it provides more profit to the gasoline manufacturer, distributor, and dealer. Any performance gains felt by running a higher-than-required octane is the Placebo Effect hard at work.

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Old 09-23-2010, 11:53 AM   #3
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depends on the compression ratio of the engine. your old ford apparently needed the extra octane.

the Jeep 4.0L doesn't need anything above regular old unleaded.
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Old 09-23-2010, 12:00 PM   #4
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Jerry, you stated that if a higher octane fuel cures a pinging in the engine, it's just mask for a bigger problem? I recently tried using high octane fuel, and it cured my bad pinging sound in my engine. It pings and kind of boggs out at low rpm's and a co worker advised me to try high octane, so I did and it cured my pinging. What are the main causes/cures to fix my issue if the high octane fuel is just a mask? Also my rig needs to be re geared, I have 3.07 with 31's, can this be a factor?

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Old 09-23-2010, 12:27 PM   #5
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Premium gas from the same Company isn't BETTER gas, its just DIFFERENT Octane gas.

The term "Premium" is simply marketing hype and it seems to work.
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Old 09-23-2010, 12:42 PM   #6
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Jerry, you stated that if a higher octane fuel cures a pinging in the engine, it's just mask for a bigger problem? I recently tried using high octane fuel, and it cured my bad pinging sound in my engine. It pings and kind of boggs out at low rpm's and a co worker advised me to try high octane, so I did and it cured my pinging. What are the main causes/cures to fix my issue if the high octane fuel is just a mask? Also my rig needs to be re geared, I have 3.07 with 31's, can this be a factor?

Thanks
Odds are your engine is pinging from the 3.07 and 31" tires and possibly from a bit of a carbon build up inside your combustion chambers. Accelerating with an undergeared (your 3.07 ratio and 31" tires) drivetrain increases the amount of stress the engine is working under which can make it ping.

Make sure you are always downshifted enough before you start to accelerate. In other words, don't try to accelerate in 5th gear when you should be in 4th or even 3rd gear... that's an invitation to ping. Accelerating with higher rpms after downshifting will make the engine work less hard which will reduce its tendency to ping/detonate.

And if you typically never rev your engine hard to high rpms, driving like the proverbial little old lady, that is sure to cause your engine to start loading up with carbon deposits in the combustion chambers. The carbon deposits build up which reduces the space inside the combustion chambers which increases the compression which causes pinging unless you start running a higher octane fuel.

If you think it could be from that latter issue, carbon build up, I can tell you how to get rid of it for free in 15-30 minutes with nothing more than a coke-can sized container of nothing more exotic than plain tap water.
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:23 PM   #7
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I'm leaning more to the carbon build up because I am new at standard transmissions, and I don't rev to high rpm's often and do sort of "drive like a little old lady" Being undergeared is one of my of my problems, however, that is something that has to wait due to cost. So if you don't mind explaining how to try and resolve the carbon build up issue, It would be much appreciated. You can pm or just reply here whenever you get the chance to explain to me.

Thanks for your knowledge Jerry.
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:25 PM   #8
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BG 44k will take care of the carbon buildup - put a can in your fuel tank. I promise it works.


seafoam via a vac. line will work as well.


and drive it a little harder. Many vehicles that never see highway use get the carbon buildup issues...esp those driven by white haired women.

want a story? I've got some about this subject.
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:40 PM   #9
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I'm leaning more to the carbon build up because I am new at standard transmissions, and I don't rev to high rpm's often and do sort of "drive like a little old lady" Being undergeared is one of my of my problems, however, that is something that has to wait due to cost. So if you don't mind explaining how to try and resolve the carbon build up issue, It would be much appreciated. You can pm or just reply here whenever you get the chance to explain to me.

Thanks for your knowledge Jerry.
This is easy, it has been in use for many decades to break up and disperse carbon from the combustion chambers. It was discovered by bomber engine mechanics during WWII when they learned that the water injection use for more engine power kept the combustion chambers looking like new.

Remove the air intake tube from your throttle body. Fill up a 12 to 16 ounce container with tap water, use a container you can easily control and won't drop. A clean soft drink or beer can works fine as a container.

Start the engine. SLOWLY SLOWLY SLOWLY (!) trickle the water into the air intake on the throttle body as you hold the engine rpms up a tad. Slowly enough that it will take you probably two minutes to empty the container. Take great pains to not spill the water into the throttle body while the engine runs, that could cause hydrolock.

The water will be turned to steam in the engine and create micro-shockwaves which will break up the carbon deposits and send them out the exhaust.

This is a commonly used technique by Corvette etc. mechanics to restore the power lost by their customers "pussy-footing" their engines too much. I learned it back in the late sixties by an old Corvette mechanic I saw doing it.

Another method you might try is over several days or a week or two, try accelerating HARD (!!!!!!) to high engine rpms repeatedly where and when you can do it safely. This can sometimes blow the carbon out and that same Corvette mechanic used that method too for milder forms of carbon buildup.

Water is totally effective at this job, no need to pay $$$ for anything else. Even Mopar's CCC (combustion chamber cleaner) is primarily water with a bit of ammonia added.
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:41 PM   #10
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The wierd part of it is, I drive my jeep 25 miles to and from work mon-Friday. On the way to work I'm in 5th at about 2400rpms on the way home I'm in 4th at about 2800-3000rpms (uphill on the way home, going from 6500ft to 7200ft). The other thing, I used the seaphome about a month ago in my intake/oil/gas. Right away I noticed a differences but still have pinging.
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:48 PM   #11
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Here in MO most of us buy premium because its not mandated to have ethanol in it. Ethanol may be the way of the future, but it sure screws stuff up and puts the mileage in the toilet.
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:49 PM   #12
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try the water trick jerry is describing. I used to run water/alcohol injection on my Turbo cars to get what we called "Infinite octane". also kept everything nice and clean, and made more power easily available.

have you hooked an OBDII scanner up to it? curious if you are getting any codes? I don't know if the jeep has a ECU smart enough to retard timing for knock, but you've gotten me curious.
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Old 09-23-2010, 03:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford
This is easy, it has been in use for many decades to break up and disperse carbon from the combustion chambers. It was discovered by bomber engine mechanics during WWII when they learned that the water injection use for more engine power kept the combustion chambers looking like new.

Remove the air intake tube from your throttle body. Fill up a 12 to 16 ounce container with tap water, use a container you can easily control and won't drop. A clean soft drink or beer can works fine as a container.

Start the engine. SLOWLY SLOWLY SLOWLY (!) trickle the water into the air intake on the throttle body as you hold the engine rpms up a tad. Slowly enough that it will take you probably two minutes to empty the container. Take great pains to not spill the water into the throttle body while the engine runs, that could cause hydrolock.

The water will be turned to steam in the engine and create micro-shockwaves which will break up the carbon deposits and send them out the exhaust.

This is a commonly used technique by Corvette etc. mechanics to restore the power lost by their customers "pussy-footing" their engines too much. I learned it back in the late sixties by an old Corvette mechanic I saw doing it.

Another method you might try is over several days or a week or two, try accelerating HARD (!!!!!!) to high engine rpms repeatedly where and when you can do it safely. This can sometimes blow the carbon out and that same Corvette mechanic used that method too for milder forms of carbon buildup.

Water is totally effective at this job, no need to pay $$$ for anything else. Even Mopar's CCC (combustion chamber cleaner) is primarily water with a bit of ammonia added.
Bit confused bout what you said here. So you trickle water into the throttle body while it's running? You said remove intake tube but trickle water into the tube after you said to remove it. Need a clarification before I go trying this.
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Old 09-23-2010, 03:42 PM   #14
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Remove the air intake tube and trickle the water directly into the throttle body's air intake. Do this slowly (!) and keep the rpms up with your finger on the throttle lever so the engine doesn't bog down and die. You should pour it slowly enough that it will take you probably 2 minutes to empty the container.
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:42 PM   #15
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Just a thought, could a contaminated mass air flow sensor be throwing off a baro reading causing the ping.
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:51 PM   #16
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I do know that every now and again I will trickle abit of water into my system(me) and the results are amazing,my urine goes from pretty solar yellow to whistle clean clear.
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:53 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by mrcarcrazy
try the water trick jerry is describing. I used to run water/alcohol injection on my Turbo cars to get what we called "Infinite octane". also kept everything nice and clean, and made more power easily available.

have you hooked an OBDII scanner up to it? curious if you are getting any codes? I don't know if the jeep has a ECU smart enough to retard timing for knock, but you've gotten me curious.
Not pulling any codes. I will try this tonight when I get home. Kind of scared to put water in the TB though. What are the odds it would cause hydro lock? Would I have to really spill it in there?
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Old 09-23-2010, 06:02 PM   #18
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Kind of scared to put water in the TB though. What are the odds it would cause hydro lock? Would I have to really spill it in there?
You would have to spill much of the container into it for that to happen. Again, this is an age-old technique that works well and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to do it. How many times when you sip water out of a glass do you accidentally spill the entire glass of water out over your face? If you can say that doesn't happen, then you are probably coordinated enough so you won't accidentally pour the entire container in at once.
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Old 09-23-2010, 06:08 PM   #19
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How many times when you sip water out of a glass do you accidentally spill the entire glass of water out over your face? If you can say that doesn't happen, then you are probably coordinated enough so you don't pour the entire container in at once.
I love it.
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Old 09-23-2010, 06:35 PM   #20
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You would have to spill much of the container into it for that to happen. Again, this is an age-old technique that works well and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to do it. How many times when you sip water out of a glass do you accidentally spill the entire glass of water out over your face? If you can say that doesn't happen, then you are probably coordinated enough so you won't accidentally pour the entire container in at once.
Haha Thanks for all the help Jerry. Mucho appreciated. I will give it a shot here in a few minutes. I think i'll be fine, dont spill all over myself very often, haha.
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Old 09-23-2010, 07:02 PM   #21
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Ok, so I just tried your trick Jerry. I poured a 12oz can of water directly into the TB intake. Then after that I went around the block and got the RPM's really high to try and blow out all the carbon. I'm empty on gas now, so I will try going back to regular gas and see if my problem still exists. One more question though, If my problem of the engine pinging at low rpms is still there, should I just ignore it until I can re-gear? Or, might there be other issues I should address?
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Old 09-23-2010, 07:21 PM   #22
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I think he said trickle, not pour!
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Old 09-23-2010, 07:41 PM   #23
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Listen to Jerry. He is old and smells like bengay but he knows his feces! To put it in laymens terms.
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Old 09-23-2010, 07:55 PM   #24
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I think he said trickle, not pour!
OH NO! Haha. Figure of speech bud! But really I did just trickle it in.
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Old 09-23-2010, 07:59 PM   #25
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when I rebuilt my 2.5 I switched to premium because it does run better. regular makes it sluggish and with premium I get better fuel mpg
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:05 PM   #26
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All jokes aside,mine gets better mileage and seems to run better on 87 oct compared to 89.Funny thing is the lesser is more expensive.Most boys running the circle tracks around here run the 87 as well.............go figure.
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:08 PM   #27
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Learn something new everyday! Jerry, you know so much
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:09 PM   #28
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I don't know that much about Jeep engines and how much the computer controls so, please take my comments with that in mind.

Couldn't the pinging issue also just simply be that the timing is just a bit too advanced, and backing the timing down a bit would solve the problem? I mean, that's the reason you have to run 91 or 93 octane fuel when using tuners like the Diablo Predator designed for such levels because the tuner advances the timing in order to squeeze out a few more horses. If you don't run the higher octane fuel when the timing is advanced, you'll ping. Retard the timing and the pinging goes away.
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:28 PM   #29
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Ok, so I just tried your trick Jerry. I poured a 12oz can of water directly into the TB intake. Then after that I went around the block and got the RPM's really high to try and blow out all the carbon. I'm empty on gas now, so I will try going back to regular gas and see if my problem still exists. One more question though, If my problem of the engine pinging at low rpms is still there, should I just ignore it until I can re-gear? Or, might there be other issues I should address?
Let's wait to see if it improves first before talking about what to do next. And you sure scared the heck out of me when you said you "poured" the water.

TR3YNGLER, modern engines like the TJ's have their ignition timing controlled solely by the computer. Even if you were able to manually turn the distributor to retard the timing like we used to do with non computerized engines, the computer would simply immediately adjust the timing back to where it wants it. Besides, you can't rotate the distributor anyway.

89yjfreak, read post #2. Running higher octane in your YJ isn't giving you better power nor is it giving you better fuel economy. That's not what octane does. Again, read post #2.
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Old 09-23-2010, 08:56 PM   #30
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Dang computers.

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