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Old 06-17-2010, 12:16 PM   #31
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Um...lemon laws cover all vehicle sales (private, dealership, etc) for up to 30 days.

Edit* - Depending on state. Here in NY you have 30 days. All states have some form of Lemon Laws, some up to 90 days I think?

Anyways, the only way for a person that sold a lemon to get out of the Lemon Law is to have "Sold As Is" as part of the deal. If the vehicle is sold as is, Lemon Law does not apply.

From what understood was the vehical needs to still be under the original warrenty to work for the lemon law but it might varry from state to state.

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Old 06-17-2010, 12:25 PM   #32
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WOW !!! No trackbar that's amazing . The flimsy stock control arms are lucky to not end up bent and You must drive really easy if you did not have tires rubbing on the frame after 100 miles. You should NEVER take your jeep back to that shop again.

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Old 06-17-2010, 12:44 PM   #33
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Wow! Rear track bar removal curing death wobble, who wudda thunk it!

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Old 06-17-2010, 01:15 PM   #34
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WOW !!! No trackbar that's amazing . The flimsy stock control arms are lucky to not end up bent and You must drive really easy if you did not have tires rubbing on the frame after 100 miles. You should NEVER take your jeep back to that shop again.
Yeah, I won't! I am lucky we just put adjustable control arms on it, that is probably what prevented any bending, and made it somewhat drivable.

Regardless the dealer I bought it from is picking up the labor for installing the new rear track and the new steering stab. I got (to pick up what's left of any bump steer). He is also going to check the rear end, tighten everything down, and make sure there isn't any damage to the tires.

I think all in all I should be good...but damn...what a way to ruin two days w/ stress and anxiety
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:19 PM   #35
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Wow! Rear track bar removal curing death wobble, who wudda thunk it!
It didn't cure the DW, it just created other problems that masked the unrelated cause of DW.
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:41 PM   #36
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It didn't cure the DW, it just created other problems that masked the unrelated cause of DW.
Well, it DID cure the DW, but really what it did was diagnose an incorrectly sized track bar as the cause, but instead of curing it with a new one, he just left it out....Kind of like removing a hip for hip pain, but sewing you back up without a replacement.
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:21 PM   #37
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Just to comment on the lemon law thing, Illinois does not cover used cars under state lemon laws and it wouldn't cover it anyway unless you can prove the dealer knew about about the mechanical problem before selling you the car.

/I am not a lawyer
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Old 06-23-2010, 10:43 AM   #38
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Mechanic just got the parts yesterday. Also noticed the pinion seal on the rear diff. is leaking...maybe low fluid is the cause of that road noise at 50 mph?

EIther way, here are the pics of the jeep sitting outside his garage without the trackbar, just to prove it doesn't have one.
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Old 06-23-2010, 11:03 AM   #39
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Mechanic just got the parts yesterday. Also noticed the pinion seal on the rear diff. is leaking...maybe low fluid is the cause of that road noise at 50 mph?

EIther way, here are the pics of the jeep sitting outside his garage without the trackbar, just to prove it doesn't have one.
Anyone have any thoughts on if driving without that rear trackbar could have caused the pinion seal to fail? Want to throw it in this other mechanics face if so!
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Old 06-23-2010, 12:22 PM   #40
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Anyone have any thoughts on if driving without that rear trackbar could have caused the pinion seal to fail? Want to throw it in this other mechanics face if so!
It is possible as allowing the axle to move around could have pulled on the pinion gears as the DS changed angles during turns. That could have contributed to the sound you were hearing. Because if pinion gear moves. It is changing the backlash on the R&P causing noise and wear. Though if all this happened I believe that it would be much more noticeable.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:12 PM   #41
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Wow.Everytime I read stuff like this,my tool box increases in value.I spose if you do stuff half-assed,you are promoting job security.Heres some food for thought.If the factory put it there,its there for a reason.You can increase strength and longevity by replacing with aftermarket parts sometimes,but to remove a functional part of the drivetrain,you are asking for some serious and expensive problems down the road.Looks like a nice jeep,too bad.Teaches jeep classes?First thing that came to mind was crayons and round nose scissors.
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:18 PM   #42
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And everytime I read stuff like this I'm glad my jeep is bone stock.

Good luck CubbieBlue. Let us know what that "jeep expert's" explanation was for the track bar removal.
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Old 06-24-2010, 03:54 PM   #43
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Ok I have been reconfirmed as a Jeep newb, didnt really think I was getting much smarter about the Jeep but more informed, however this is the first thread where I have read anything about removing the "rear" anything to get rid of Death Wobble?
Regardless, I hope there is some type of remedy for you, CubbieBlue since vibrations and DW are bound to happen at some point in our "Jeep" lives.
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Old 06-24-2010, 04:25 PM   #44
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I'm no expert in suspension or anything , but I AM 47 years old and can tell you from personal experience that a part is there for a reason. Last time I checked a rear track bar won;t solve a DW issue, at least not on pickups, I haven't had that problem on my Jeep yet, but I do know for a fact that a track bar is there to keep thee rear end in line with the vehicle, thats what they do, it has NOTHING to do with a wobble. You will see track bars on ALL vehicles that have rear coil springs.
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Old 06-24-2010, 06:02 PM   #45
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Just want to put my two cents in here... I recently bought a 04 tj (last monday) and it had a severe case of bump steer. I took it back to the dealer and threatened him with "If you dont fix this, You WILL be hearing from my lawyer for selling me a very unsafe jeep..." so he fixed it. I took it to my mechanic before he knew anything of it, and it was just a front track bar that had some loose bushings. Also the jeep had very worn out tires maybe like 10% left, so I told him he needed to replace all 4 tires (spare was brand new) as well, and he did. Just let him know that its not safe to drive, maybe take him for a drive and look for the biggest pot whole you can and get it to DW (if you haven't fixed that yet) and that should convince him to fix it.
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:29 PM   #46
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And everytime I read stuff like this I'm glad my jeep is bone stock.

Good luck CubbieBlue. Let us know what that "jeep expert's" explanation was for the track bar removal.
Well here's the thing - removing the stock track bar fixed the DW because it was pulling the rear end over too far and causing a crab walk or a dog track. Removing the track bar stopped that dog tracking and removed the DW. Getting an adjustable rear bar (that is properly adjusted) will prevent the dog tracking and the death wobble. I get it back from the shop tomorrow, so we'll see how it is.
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:29 PM   #47
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Just want to put my two cents in here... I recently bought a 04 tj (last monday) and it had a severe case of bump steer. I took it back to the dealer and threatened him with "If you dont fix this, You WILL be hearing from my lawyer for selling me a very unsafe jeep..." so he fixed it. I took it to my mechanic before he knew anything of it, and it was just a front track bar that had some loose bushings. Also the jeep had very worn out tires maybe like 10% left, so I told him he needed to replace all 4 tires (spare was brand new) as well, and he did. Just let him know that its not safe to drive, maybe take him for a drive and look for the biggest pot whole you can and get it to DW (if you haven't fixed that yet) and that should convince him to fix it.
Yep I did that and he has been footing the bill for all of this so far.
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:31 PM   #48
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It is possible as allowing the axle to move around could have pulled on the pinion gears as the DS changed angles during turns. That could have contributed to the sound you were hearing. Because if pinion gear moves. It is changing the backlash on the R&P causing noise and wear. Though if all this happened I believe that it would be much more noticeable.
Yeah this mechanic said everything in the rear end looked just fine, so I think the pinion seal was just ready to go. At least no damage from driving without the trackbar!
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Old 06-24-2010, 09:43 PM   #49
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Yeah this mechanic said everything in the rear end looked just fine, so I think the pinion seal was just ready to go. At least no damage from driving without the trackbar!
You got dam lucky with that one man, the only way the track bar was the wrong length is if it was removed and replaced with one of a different length, or an extension welded into it, but do yourself a BIG favor after you get it back, have it aligned and checked out by the alignment person for proper setting, after you start driving it again check it on a regular basis for anything that doesn't lok like it does when you pick it up, don;t wait for a DW to start back up, or a funy noise to start squeaking, by the time stuff like that starts Jeep usually ends up emptying your wallet to fix it
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:07 PM   #50
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Here is a blog post I found regarding rear track bars and death wobble:

Yooper Jeep: Teraflex Rear Track Bar Extension - Finally
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Old 06-24-2010, 10:31 PM   #51
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axle moving side to side could have caused the crush sleeve to crush more to its a tight fit and if it gets slack then tight then slack from side to side might have done that if the seal is leaking same senero (i think thats how its spelled) could be have the new mech. check your backlash and pinion lash to make sure they are at par
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Old 06-25-2010, 04:28 PM   #52
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Here is a blog post I found regarding rear track bars and death wobble:

Yooper Jeep: Teraflex Rear Track Bar Extension - Finally
Perfect reason to have one in there, a rear end out of line WILL cause way more problems in the long run than just a wobble or a bearing seal surface movement, trust me I've had about every possible automotive problem there is.
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Old 06-25-2010, 08:13 PM   #53
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Perfect reason to have one in there, a rear end out of line WILL cause way more problems in the long run than just a wobble or a bearing seal surface movement, trust me I've had about every possible automotive problem there is.
Got it back from the shop today and w/ the adjustable rear bar I have no wobble. I had a guy from the local jeep club stop by and take a good look at it. Found no issues. Thinks I should get an adjustable front trackbar, which I will do in a month or two when I can afford it. Other than that I am good to go!
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:12 PM   #54
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Sounds like you might be okay, hope it all works out for you.
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:18 PM   #55
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Sounds like you might be okay, hope it all works out for you.
Thanks, I think it will be fine. Everything seems solid. I think once I get that front adjustable trackbar and another alignment I will be perfect.
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:25 AM   #56
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Thank you for sharing the link to the rear track bar, happy to hear that you are getting issue resolved.
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Old 06-26-2010, 11:27 AM   #57
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I'm glad the adjustable track bar fixed the problem, that tells me that one of two things has happened, either the old track bar was just a little off, or the Jeep itself is just a hair off, knowing the 1quality of Jeeps, I'd say it was the old track bar, all it takes is a little slight tweak and those things are off center just enough to make your life hell. Just remember to tell the mechanic that they are adjustable when you take it for alignments

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