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Old 08-16-2008, 01:13 PM   #31
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ARGH!!!!!

Help please. Error codes PO138 and PO141.

I just reset the ECU about 75 miles ago. Do you think the ECU hasn't fully checked all systems yet?

My TJ has 65k miles.

SON OF A>>>>>>>>>>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old 08-19-2008, 11:48 PM   #32
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Those both seem to be O2 sensor codes. I know that is not a cheap repair but gets you closer to passing the emissions test.

P0138 (M) 1/2 O2 Sensor Shorted To Voltage Oxygen sensor input voltage maintained above normal
operating range
I believe this is the downstream sensor.


P0141 (M) 1/2 O2 Sensor Heater Failure Oxygen sensor heater element malfunction.

I'm not a mechanic, this is just from the repair manual!

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Old 08-23-2008, 05:38 PM   #33
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Thanks joshuasv!!!!

How the F@#K can I get this fixed?

Son of a......

I really love my TJ but I'm getting F#$KING INFURIATED NOW!!!.

I've reset the ECU, driven it several times and got it up to temperature, and even changed the gas cap.

WTF??????

The check engine light works but it doesn't stay on to show these codes? WTF????

You guys are awesome. My Jeep, however, is getting to PISS ME OFF!!!!

F#CK!!!! I don't want to fork out a shit load of moolah to fix this and the guy I bought it from said he smogged it but couldn't find the slip. Damnit.
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Old 08-24-2008, 12:25 AM   #34
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No light on, but codes present.

Check the connectors and wires to the O2 sensors. Make sure they aren't broken or grounding. Unplug and plug them back in to get any corrosion off the pins. About a 30% of the time cure right there.

Make sure you do not have any exhaust leaks between the engine and the sensors - another 10-15%.

No light, but a code is present - that's a "soft code." (Sometimes the light may come on for a moment when driving, then go off again. When the problem is fixed the code goes away immediately. After a restart (when the battery was NOT disconnected, the code is always gone at first, but if the problem is still present it will come back quickly.
Soft codes can eventually become hard codes.

Light on - "Hard code", must be force cleared with a scanner. That's where it saw a major failure and it wants you to check into it before resetting the code.

Disconnecting the battery and letting it set for several hours may clear some codes, but not others. (As opposed to OBDI GM that only needed 5 minutes.)

After the battery has been disconnected, the portals must reset. That requires driving a few miles. It knows the battery was disconnected and has to have a few miles to set any new codes before it'll pass the machine. Sometimes it only takes 10 or so miles, sometimes a little more. A scanner will tell you if they aren't reset.

The evap code - the ECM only "Looks" at that randomly, it may take awhile to come back. On the left splash panel about 12" away from the firewall. There's a little hose with a cap on a T - connect a hose to the T and blow cigarette smoke in it. Look to see where the smoke comes out and fix it.

But yours doesnt have that code.

Sounds like your codes are soft codes. Check the above, leaks, wiring etc.

If still testing bad - have a shop run a data stream on it - that's much more than just codes (no cheapie scanners like AutoChina uses cannot do it.) -- they can tell which, if any, O2 sensor is bad. Trying to diagnose by codes alone is like trying to find a buried treasure from a world map - nearly impossible - and very expensive from throwing so many unneeded parts at it.
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Old 08-24-2008, 02:41 AM   #35
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No light on, but codes present.

Check the connectors and wires to the O2 sensors. Make sure they aren't broken or grounding. Unplug and plug them back in to get any corrosion off the pins. About a 30% of the time cure right there.

Make sure you do not have any exhaust leaks between the engine and the sensors - another 10-15%.

No light, but a code is present - that's a "soft code." (Sometimes the light may come on for a moment when driving, then go off again. When the problem is fixed the code goes away immediately. After a restart (when the battery was NOT disconnected, the code is always gone at first, but if the problem is still present it will come back quickly.
Soft codes can eventually become hard codes.

Light on - "Hard code", must be force cleared with a scanner. That's where it saw a major failure and it wants you to check into it before resetting the code.

Disconnecting the battery and letting it set for several hours may clear some codes, but not others. (As opposed to OBDI GM that only needed 5 minutes.)

After the battery has been disconnected, the portals must reset. That requires driving a few miles. It knows the battery was disconnected and has to have a few miles to set any new codes before it'll pass the machine. Sometimes it only takes 10 or so miles, sometimes a little more. A scanner will tell you if they aren't reset.

The evap code - the ECM only "Looks" at that randomly, it may take awhile to come back. On the left splash panel about 12" away from the firewall. There's a little hose with a cap on a T - connect a hose to the T and blow cigarette smoke in it. Look to see where the smoke comes out and fix it.

But yours doesnt have that code.

Sounds like your codes are soft codes. Check the above, leaks, wiring etc.

If still testing bad - have a shop run a data stream on it - that's much more than just codes (no cheapie scanners like AutoChina uses cannot do it.) -- they can tell which, if any, O2 sensor is bad. Trying to diagnose by codes alone is like trying to find a buried treasure from a world map - nearly impossible - and very expensive from throwing so many unneeded parts at it.
You my friend are GeniuS!!!!

The 02 sensor is located on the lower exhaust manifold before the cat correct?

Thanks man!! You have given me some more hope.

BTW: Broken or grounding? What do you mean by grounding?
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Old 08-24-2008, 08:24 AM   #36
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Sometimes the wires get too close to the exhaust pipe - and melt.
Actually it's the insulation that melts, letting the conductor inside touch ground.

That could be the reason for the O2 heater code. If the heater wire was shorted to ground, the sensor never gets hot enough to read correctly, setting codes, creating problems. There should be a small clip that holds the wires safe - if not, make something.

Yes, the sensor is located in the exhaust pipe - one just under the manifold, the other right behind the CAT. They look kinda like spark plugs.

Sometimes the connector(s) to the O2 sensors get dirt or corrosion inside - unplug, then plug them in again. That usually makes a good connection again.

And - if you do replace the O2 sensor(s) - get them from the Jeep dealer - there are aftermarket "one size fits all"s that won't give you the performance or longevity that a real one will. Often Dealer prices are as low, or even lower than junk stuff from aftermarket. Especially when you consider time between replacements.

And - be sure to use the spark plugs the underhood label calls for. Aftermarket "performance" plugs often are the cause of codes and smog failures. The only thing "performance" about them is the high performance profits from them.
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Old 08-24-2008, 08:31 AM   #37
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""""the guy I bought it from said he smogged it but couldn't find the slip. """"

You don't need the slip from the PO - or anything. When you go into a smog station and he plugs in your VIN, the machine connects to Sacramento's main computer - it "knows" when it was done.

IF he really did it - you don't need to do it again if it was within the last 90 days.

The guy at the smog station is probably first checking for codes, them when he sees some, he stops the test, so he may not have noticed it was recently done. Tell him you think it was, he can find out easy.
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Old 08-24-2008, 10:14 AM   #38
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Can all shops run a data stream or should I just go to the stealership?

How much does that run?

Thanks again!
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Old 08-24-2008, 12:20 PM   #39
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Dealer will probably charge about $100 - maybe.

But many, not all, shops have a scanner that will run it. Some may do it for free, some may have a minimum charge. It only takes a few moments to get the data, interpreting it is the trick.

Call and ask them.
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Old 08-25-2008, 11:51 AM   #40
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Okay, the dealership said it would cost $98 to do the scan.

I took it in again this morning to the smog check guy and three things were red:
1.catalytic
2. 02 sensor
3. heat sensor

I've drive it 70 miles already and the F$#$#KING THING is still red.

Question: If the mechanice changes the sensors, will that solve the problem?

What the FRCK??? If I drop it off at the dealership, do you think they will have a more extensive way of fixing it? Or do you think any mechanic can fix it?

I had another car I took to a mechanic and I spend $800 on something that didn't even fix the car.

I then finally buckled and took it to a Mitsubishi dealer and $280 later, the car is fixed. I did however, buy a used ECU from a junkyard which they recommended to me.

O well, sorry for the rant guys. I think I'll just take it to the dealership tomorrow so I wont have to worry about this SHIZ anymore.

Have a great day.
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Old 08-25-2008, 10:20 PM   #41
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Hedonist did you go to autozone or another local store and see if they can show up some codes?
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Old 08-27-2008, 05:56 PM   #42
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Yes I did and I got two codes: PO138 and PO141; same ones from the smog place.

So I take it in to the dealership; Get there and the porter drives my car away but stalls it first; OUCH!!

Second: He does a scan for me $98. I leave my car.

Four hours later I get a call: It's your 02 sensor but the only problem is that the OEM wont fit because the previous owner rewired the whole thing and used an aftermarket 02 sensor.

How much will it cost to rewire? He tells me $1900. I say: "HOLY SON OF A F$#%$$; WHat the??????? $1900 HUH!???HH!!!!!!


I then tell him, can I just buy the OEM 02 sensor and just solder on the wires to the pre-existing aftermarket clip. He says you can but it will be risky because the wires might not be able to take in fresh air like the OEM.

So, he pulls me aside and just says to go to some auto store and pick up the same aftermarket 02 sensor and it will be okay. They tested the whole car and the only problem was the 02 sensor.

CLIFFS: Problem is the 02 sensor. Second problem: Existing aftermarket 02 sensor has different adapters so I have to find the 02 sensor some other place.

Is this weird or do you think it will be easy to find this 02 sensor and do it myself?

TY in advance guys.

Despite all of the hurly burly, everyone loved my Jeep. I drove away with the sun and the wind blowing in my face thinking: "I love this Jeep."
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Old 08-27-2008, 06:53 PM   #43
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If you need new 02's get them off of summit they have NTK o2's for 50 bucks.
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:26 PM   #44
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how many wires does yours have?
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Old 08-27-2008, 09:35 PM   #45
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I would think it'd a 4 wire heated 02. The sensor should be a 0 to 1 volt sensor to work with the stock ecu. I find it hard to belive that the other owner just decided to change out the connectors and even if he did it wouldn't coast 1900$ to change out a few connectors and wires. I think there full of shit but they may not be i just think it's odd.
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Old 08-27-2008, 10:57 PM   #46
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They probably want to sell him a whole harness hich is DUMB....Just go to Bone yard and tell them you need O2 and both conectors for it The JP side and the O2 side. They will charge you probly 50.00 for both. Check ith a yard Called LKQ they have a few down south. and are easy to deal with.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:24 PM   #47
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Wish i was back in socal already and would of charged u a pizza and well teach u how to wrench on ur truck.
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Old 08-27-2008, 11:26 PM   #48
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Obviously the PO was lying, but - did you check with the smog station - if he really did smog it it will show on the computer. Then you don't have to do it again now. Time is running out though, it's only good for a short time.

BTW - The law says it's the seller's responsibility for it to pass smog. Check with the DMV on that.

Then - don't bother with the aftermarket O2 sensors - they are trash. They won't last. A OEM dealer sensor is about the same price, and will be good for at least 100,000 miles.

And - get the repair manual, from the dealer, not Chiltons or aftermarket wrong ones. They are mostly useless.

Use the color coding from the manual to get the wires right. You can hard wire - solder it in, or get the connector from a bone yard. A good parts house, like Carquest or NAPA may be able to get the harness side connector - then you can do it right.

Aftermarket sensors are trash - especially from cheapie junk stores like AutoChina. Some even have several connectors - one size fits all - trash.

It's not going to be that difficult.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:57 AM   #49
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Well, I bought a Bosch and the dealer was full of shit because the connector fits perfectly.

I would've bought the OEM at the dealer but the dude gave me shit about it not fitting. O yea, the dealership did want me to buy a harness but I looked under and everything was legit and the brackets fit nicely.

Well, tomorrow I will smog it and let's see how this home made repair did.

Wow, I removed the O2 sensor on my own and am about to install the new one.

SWEET!!!

Hope this shit passes. If you guys were here, it'd be beers on me.
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Old 08-28-2008, 01:21 AM   #50
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Were are you at in socal? I used to live in Temec. Umm make sure you put some miles on her tm before going. Along with getting it up to temp for 10 or so mins before u go. Congrats on not breaking anything yet in frustration!
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Old 08-28-2008, 10:41 AM   #51
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Shit. THe Bosch adapter doesn't fit. The one on there was an NTK. Hope if I buy an NTK it'll work.

SHucks.
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Old 08-28-2008, 01:14 PM   #52
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What kind was the original OEM?

I'd use that one - only that one.

If it's already been adapted to something else I'd convert it back to original. You already know what DOESN'T work.

If the PO changed things, you'll see where he spliced in the harness end. If there's no splices or modifications, and what you have in your hand has a different connector, obviously you don't have the right one.

One way they prevent people from using the wrong one is the connectors only fit the one they designed it around.

You still haven't checked with the smog station to see if the guy recently smogged it and you don't need to do it again - so you must "like" making things complicated.
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:43 PM   #53
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Good point rrich. I bought the Jeep in January so I think my 90 day window has passed.

UPDATE: I installed the new 02 sensor and all was gravy until I drove to the smog station.

I drove to 4 smog stations and still, the one code: PO138 was appearing.

I was sweating my ass off driving around the valley. I then call my service guy at the dealer and he said as long as the 02 sensor was changed then everything should be okay.

He said to bring it in so that he can reset it. THe second smog guy tried to clear the codes but couldn't because my Jeep wouldn't allow it. My service guy, Carl, did it for free and said it should work.

So, now, I have to drive it around again to get everything cleared.

I asked him if D'Cing the battery would be adequate to clear the code, and he said not always.

So I guess it's okay now. I guess all codes are cleared and I SHOULD be able to pass smog.

QUestion: It is true that only the dealer can clear some codes? Wow. Trip out.

Ty all. If I pass or don't pass, you guys have been Jeep Gurus and to you I toast a Newcastle in your honor.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:44 PM   #54
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Kinda true. The dealer's scanner goes way in depth into the Jeep's ECM. They can even reprogram some of it.
There are other scanners around that can do the same, but most shops don't have it.

Autozone uses a little mickey mouse device that can read codes and reset part of the system. You can buy those at Harbor Freight for about $30. It's mainly codes only.

If you want a scanner like many shops have that gets part way in, it'll cost you between $1200 - 3000.

An in depth one, like the Dealer uses is more like $4000 to 7000. Very few shops have them.

Ya gets what ya pays for.

Do a search on the internet - there are devices with software that can interface with your laptop. Some are cheap, some terribly expensive. I've thought seriously about getting one, but really haven't had much need for it.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:15 PM   #55
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$4k to $7k???? WTF??? Wowzers.

Whoa. The one at the smog shop was a handheld one which couldn't clear the codes. THe dealer one, however, NOICE!!!!!


Wow, I was at the dealer and saw some new '08-'09 Wranglers/Rubis. Very nice. I saw a basic 4WD for 21k and a Rubi for 34k ish (OUCH!!!).

Thought they were nice, I still LOVE MY TJ!!!!!

BTW, how many miles till I get everything clear? Is it 50 miles?

Thanks!!
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:30 PM   #56
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They are expensive for sure.
There's essentially 3 levels.

The cheapies just read codes and can clear them.

The middle ones can get the OBII data stream - much more diagnostic information. Almost all vehicles using the OBII use the same inputs and data stream. It's pretty universal. But that's just the smog info.

The expensive ones can go even deeper than that - right into prioritized OEM programming information. That's stuff unique to that vehicle. They can do things like reprogram your speedometer to compensate for tire size changes, reprogram your alarm system to accept a new key (the chip in the key has to be entered into the computer so it will start, that's why you can't just cut a new key and expect it to work.) It even can reprogram the advance curve and how the heater air conditioner works. Yes, it's complicated.

And then, what adds to the cost is changes to the systems - each year the dealer has to get the updated information and adapters.

It's getting too damn complicated!

LOL - A friend bought a new car with an elaborate GPS in it. When he started the car, it asked where he's going. He told it he wanted to go to Black Angus Steak House. It told him he couldn't afford to go there, so it took him to Taco Bell!

Too damn computerized!

10 miles usually does the trick.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:03 PM   #57
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They are expensive for sure.
There's essentially 3 levels.

The cheapies just read codes and can clear them.

The middle ones can get the OBII data stream - much more diagnostic information. Almost all vehicles using the OBII use the same inputs and data stream. It's pretty universal. But that's just the smog info.

The expensive ones can go even deeper than that - right into prioritized OEM programming information. That's stuff unique to that vehicle. They can do things like reprogram your speedometer to compensate for tire size changes, reprogram your alarm system to accept a new key (the chip in the key has to be entered into the computer so it will start, that's why you can't just cut a new key and expect it to work.) It even can reprogram the advance curve and how the heater air conditioner works. Yes, it's complicated.

And then, what adds to the cost is changes to the systems - each year the dealer has to get the updated information and adapters.

It's getting too damn complicated!

LOL - A friend bought a new car with an elaborate GPS in it. When he started the car, it asked where he's going. He told it he wanted to go to Black Angus Steak House. It told him he couldn't afford to go there, so it took him to Taco Bell!

Too damn computerized!

10 miles usually does the trick.
^

Sweet man. THanks!!!

Wow. Soo complicated.

BTW, you're kidding about the GPS right? LOL!!!
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Old 08-29-2008, 10:16 AM   #58
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A friend bought a new car with an elaborate GPS in it. When he started the car, it asked where he's going. He told it he wanted to go to Black Angus Steak House. It told him he couldn't afford to go there so it took him to Taco Bell!
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:02 AM   #59
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He He - it's not quite that bad -- yet, but it's coming.

Like ABS - you are going down a steep sand hill, or a steep talis slope and you need to slow down or stop. You want to lock the brakes so it'll build a berm in front of the tires to stop you. You lock up the brakes, the ABS says "you don't need to stop" and releases them. Good way to get killed.

Many of the new cars don't even have a connection between the gas pedal and the engine. The computer decides if you want throttle.

I don't want a damn computer making decisions for me!

Too damn complicated!
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Old 08-29-2008, 12:54 PM   #60
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You my friend are GeniuS!!!!
Yup. rrich can fix anything, except the wife's credit card.....

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