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Old 07-04-2011, 04:21 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by necromancer_tat View Post
There are a lot of different factors that come into play for both trans types, gearing, lockers vs limited slip, engine braking, what kind of terrain you're on, how fast you want to go, how strong your parts are and how much abuse they can take, and it could get even more complicated for example by running rear steer, or cut brakes... add in a twin stick transfer case and all of a sudden you've got levers everywhere...
Thanks for getting my point. There are far too many variables to make a pronouncement that manuals have better engine braking and that the engine automatically picks the correct speed for you on steep descents.

This horse has been beaten into several cases of Elmer's, but I've seen Jerry B on here almost roll his rig in a very bad way on a steep descent because he was too slow for the steepness of the obstacle. As soon as the front dropped over the down side of the ledge, the back end came up and fell over sideways and that hill is not any place you would ever want to be sideways on.

I went down in front of him and I go down it in second gear with one foot on the brake and one on the throttle. When the back comes up, I bump the gas, pull the back down, let it settle and back off the throttle again. No drama at all.

There are many folks with manuals who follow me down hills that comment that their manuals in 1st gear are faster than my auto in 1st gear and they are geared correctly.

Both transmissions need to be driven, no more, no less.

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:26 PM   #32
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There are a few reasons I prefer an automatic after having converted to one from a 5-speed in my previous TJ (my current TJ came with an automatic).

The reasons all come from the same magic component that gives the automatic its charm, its torque converter. Number one is the torque converter gives you more low-end torque than you'll get with a manual transmission. Up to 2-3X more low-end torque while you are trying to scoot up an obstacle. There were three rock climbs on the same trail that required I use my winch to get up with my 5-speed. Once I installed the automatic, I was able to scoot right up those same three obstacles without problem. Same 35" tires, same 4.88 gearing, same front and rear lockers.

Number two is the torque converter gives you an infinitely low 1st gear ratio and an infinitely high crawl ratio. You can't simply compare the raw numbers of the 1st ratios between the automatic and manual to tell me I'm full of it. Why? Again, due to the magic of the torque converter. With a stick, you can only crawl as slow as the gears will let you. Any slower you have to step on the clutch or you'll stall the engine. With the automatic, however, all you have to do to crawl slower than the 1st gear ratio says is to give it some brake... you can go from 0 mph up to whatever by just modulating the brake, all the while the engine is happily not stalling due to that torque converter doing its thing.

All that is why you have that infinitely high crawl ratio... the torque converter is about as close to a magical device as I've seen on a Jeep.

5-speeds may be more fun for some around town and on dirt roads but on the rocks or an extremely difficult trail, an automatic is real tough to beat. Converting my TJ from its factory 5-speed to the automatic transformed it into something that would have cost me a whole bunch of $$$$$ to get somewhat similar results with its previous manual transmission.

One last comment... go to where the pro-level competitors compete and you'll find most are now running automatics. The Jeep for the King of the Hammers event that Blaine (Black Magic Brakes) and I helped build had an automatic transmission. The Jeep didn't come with the automatic but it sure had an automatic by the time we were done with it and it was on the course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
I've seen Jerry B on here almost roll his rig in a very bad way on a steep descent because he was too slow for the steepness of the obstacle. As soon as the front dropped over the down side of the ledge, the back end came up and fell over sideways and that hill is not any place you would ever want to be sideways on.
Yep that happened with my then recently installed automatic transmission. The same type of transmission some don't think can do compression braking.

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Old 07-04-2011, 04:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Magic Brakes View Post
Thanks for getting my point. There are far too many variables to make a pronouncement that manuals have better engine braking and that the engine automatically picks the correct speed for you on steep descents.

This horse has been beaten into several cases of Elmer's, but I've seen Jerry B on here almost roll his rig in a very bad way on a steep descent because he was too slow for the steepness of the obstacle. As soon as the front dropped over the down side of the ledge, the back end came up and fell over sideways and that hill is not any place you would ever want to be sideways on.

I went down in front of him and I go down it in second gear with one foot on the brake and one on the throttle. When the back comes up, I bump the gas, pull the back down, let it settle and back off the throttle again. No drama at all.

There are many folks with manuals who follow me down hills that comment that their manuals in 1st gear are faster than my auto in 1st gear and they are geared correctly.

Both transmissions need to be driven, no more, no less.
Thanks for clearing things up for me a bit, I can definitely picture in my head using the throttle to pull my back end back down, the same way if I was to wheely a sport bike to far back and about to loose it I could tap the back brake to bring the front end back down...
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Old 07-04-2011, 04:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
There are a few reasons I prefer an automatic after having converted to one from a 5-speed in my previous TJ (my current TJ came with an automatic).

The reasons all come from the same magic component that gives the automatic its charm, its torque converter. Number one is the torque converter gives you more low-end torque than you'll get with a manual transmission. Up to 2-3X more low-end torque while you are trying to scoot up an obstacle. There were three rock climbs on the same trail that required I use my winch to get up with my 5-speed. Once I installed the automatic, I was able to scoot right up those same three obstacles without problem. Same 35" tires, same 4.88 gearing, same front and rear lockers.

Number two is the torque converter gives you an infinitely low 1st gear ratio and an infinitely high crawl ratio. You can't simply compare the raw numbers of the 1st ratios between the automatic and manual to tell me I'm full of it. Why? Again, due to the magic of the torque converter. With a stick, you can only crawl as slow as the gears will let you. Any slower you have to step on the clutch or you'll stall the engine. With the automatic, however, all you have to do to crawl slower than the 1st gear ratio says is to give it some brake... you can go from 0 mph up to whatever by just modulating the brake, all the while the engine is happily not stalling due to that torque converter doing its thing.

All that is why you have that infinitely high crawl ratio... the torque converter is about as close to a magical device as I've seen on a Jeep.

5-speeds may be more fun for some around town and on dirt roads but on the rocks or an extremely difficult trail, an automatic is real tough to beat. Converting my TJ from its factory 5-speed to the automatic transformed it into something that would have cost me a whole bunch of $$$$$ to get somewhat similar results with its previous manual transmission.

One last comment... go to where the pro-level competitors compete and you'll find most are now running automatics. The Jeep for the King of the Hammers event that Blaine (Black Magic Brakes) and I helped build had an automatic transmission. The Jeep didn't come with the automatic but it sure had an automatic by the time we were done with it and it was on the course.

Yep that happened with my then recently installed automatic transmission. The same type of transmission some don't think can do compression braking.
Thanks for helping break it down a little more descriptive for me, I can now see some of the the advantages that an auto can have. I guess when I do my engine swap I'll go ahead and budget for a good auto trans swap at the same time.
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:32 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by necromancer_tat View Post
Thanks for helping break it down a little more descriptive for me, I can now see some of the the advantages that an auto can have. I guess when I do my engine swap I'll go ahead and budget for a good auto trans swap at the same time.

I guess I better hurry up and rent a 10X10 room to store as many T-19s and D-20s as I can afford for the Scout, and then when I get a Jeep, do the same thing. I cannot have manuals disappear forever on me because people don't want manuals. That's already happened with everything else out there, just like power locks and windows. It looks like the JKs are the ONLY light vehicles sold in the US without power locks and windows. Thanks guys...

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Old 07-04-2011, 09:38 PM   #36
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They're not better. I believe they are easier. Poor wording my bad.
Yes easier. And staying on-road is even easier as is staying home watching tv, but is that the point?

Can't stand slush boxes, but they are easier...

...
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:51 PM   #37
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For those who badmouth auto transmissions because they make wheeling "easier" (your words not mine)... then it's time for you to get rid of your lockers, big tires, 4x4 transfer cases, suspension lifts, Atlas II transfer cases, quick disconnects, etc.. All of them do nothing but make it easier to make it from one end of the trail to the other with fewer issues.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:40 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericaOverland

I guess I better hurry up and rent a 10X10 room to store as many T-19s and D-20s as I can afford for the Scout, and then when I get a Jeep, do the same thing. I cannot have manuals disappear forever on me because people don't want manuals. That's already happened with everything else out there, just like power locks and windows. It looks like the JKs are the ONLY light vehicles sold in the US without power locks and windows. Thanks guys...

You just mad cuz I be stylin on you. jk

If I want to shift gears. Which is awesome. I love shifting a manual. I'll do it on my R6 A 6speed transmission stretched over 186 mph and an 20000 rpm tach. I STILL want a manual jeep. But auto is more efficient off road. When I have kids and need a bigger vehicle. I'll buy a manual JKU.
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:47 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by AmericaOverland

I guess I better hurry up and rent a 10X10 room to store as many T-19s and D-20s as I can afford for the Scout, and then when I get a Jeep, do the same thing. I cannot have manuals disappear forever on me because people don't want manuals. That's already happened with everything else out there, just like power locks and windows. It looks like the JKs are the ONLY light vehicles sold in the US without power locks and windows. Thanks guys...

The JK's also have power door locks and windows.

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