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Old 06-13-2011, 11:38 AM   #1
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Question Warn RT40 for occasional use ...?

I'm looking into getting a winch for occasional use. My goal is to be better able to get un-stuck if I'm out by myself, run off in snow, etc.

I've looked at the M8000 (good deals on them right now), but I think it is overkill. 8000lbs pull is 2.5X my stock ~3250lb TJ. And that's not even with a snatch block. It is also not waterproof, making me worry about the winters here in Colorado.

As the title says, I'm looking at the RT40 now (designed for side-by-side ATVs). It costs about the same as the M8000. Rated to 4000lbs (1.25x my TJ); I'd carry a snatch block with it. The real selling point is that it's sealed & waterproof.

Any comments or recommendations? How bad is it if the M8000 gets waterlogged? Does it hold up well to winter conditions? Does anyone have experience with smaller 4000lb winches? Thanks in advance!

M8000: Warn Industries - Jeep, Truck & SUV Winches: M8000
RT40: Warn Industries - ATV & Side X Side Winches: Series RT40

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Old 06-13-2011, 12:01 PM   #2
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Nope Nada No!

A winch rating is with a single wind on the drum, capacity drops as the you add each wind.

Also your jeeps 3250 is rolling resistance, on level ground. Not stuck axle deep in the mud, or down over an embankment in a snow drift.

Also the larger the winch the easier it has to work, and the longer it can run between cool down cycles.

The RT 40 at 4000 pounds can only run 10 seconds. Not a lot if you are buried.

As for waterproofing, I've yet to a see a Warn winch not sitting out in the elements, drowned in fresh water crossings and such that it didn't shrug it off.

Salt water is another story, and from what I've read on Warn's site, they say their winches are weather resistant, the RT40 and such just get more seals as they are prone to be used in more water related areas.

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Old 06-13-2011, 12:04 PM   #3
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If your stuck in the mud, you could easily exceed a load of twice the weight of your vehicle trying to pull your self out. just something to keep in mind...

Also, granted its a 4.0, but my TJ weighs in over 4K lbs (from the VIN), and only about 300 of that difference is the motor...
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:07 PM   #4
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I have a Warn 8000...and have pulled out all kinds of rigs stuck in the mud...and pulled hard enough to slide my 03 Rubicon (33" x 12.5" Cepek Crushers) so that we had to anchor the rear of the rubicon to a tree...JK was stuck fast high centered on a rock. But we pulled him out! Your 4000 winch would have snapped like a twig.
You need double the weight of your rig (and most TJ's are just around 4000#) so don't skimp-as you noted-the 40 is rated for ATV use...get the hint there that you are asking too much from it?
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:31 PM   #5
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Shelby:
Quote:
Also your jeeps 3250 is rolling resistance, on level ground.
I can push my Jeep by hand if it's on level ground. Surely I'm not applying 3,250 pounds of force to it. After a breakfast of champions all I can benchpress is about 170lbs!

Although you do make a good point about the 10sec duty cycle.
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:37 PM   #6
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Shelby:


I can push my Jeep by hand if it's on level ground. Surely I'm not applying 3,250 pounds of force to it. After a breakfast of champions all I can benchpress is about 170lbs!

Although you do make a good point about the 10sec duty cycle.
Pushing a jeep on level ground has nothing to do with the weight the full weight... Physics is fun.
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:54 PM   #7
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Take the wheels off and push it. LOL! With no resistance from the ground it is sitting on, it will take 3250+ pounds of pull/force to move it. Rolling as moving the jeep forward, not rolling the wheels. Takes two bowls of Wheaties then.

And yes with the wheels on it will take less pull/force as you have reduced the resistance factor.


3 bowls even, and I bury our jeep up to the axles, I bet you won't push it out on your own.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:03 PM   #8
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On level ground, it would ideally take 0lbs force to move a Jeep, since you're not elevating it. Again ideally, on a 45-degree hill, it would take sin(45deg)*Mass-of-Jeep to winch it up at a constant velocity. For a 3250lb Jeep this would be sqrt(2)/2*3250 = 2300lbs force. At a 90-degree angle, of course, it would the full weight of the Jeep since you'd be winching straight up in the air - 3250lbs force.

In order to winch a Jeep up a non-ideal-physics-world trail, the frictional force must be overcome in addition to the weight of the vehicle. Wikipedia's article on rolling resistance <Rolling resistance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia> has a great list of coefficients of resistance for all sorts of situations. It lists car tires on sand as Crr=0.3.

The equation for force of rolling resistance is:
F = Crr*Nf
(Crr being the rolling resistance coefficient and Nf being the force perpendicular to the plane on which the vehicle rests).

For a 3250lb Jeep on flat, level concrete (Crr = 0.015), the force to push, pull, or winch it would be:
F = Crr*Nf = 0.015*(3250) = 48.75lbs force.

For the same Jeep on flat, level SAND (Crr = 0.3) it would take:
F=Crr*Nf = 0.3*3250 = 975lbs force to move it forward

For the same Jeep on a 45-degree angle sand trail, it would take the force to elevate it up a 45-degree angle, plus the force to overcome rolling resistance:
F= sin(45deg)*3250 + Crr*Nf. Nf=sin(45deg)*3250
F = sin(45deg)*3250 + 0.3*sin(45deg)*3250 = 2987lbs force.

Does anyone have experience using winches rated to less than 8000lbs? I'd like to hear how they worked, to get a feel for what's really required in the real-world.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:12 PM   #9
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I had a 6000lbs winch on a 86Bronco. It wasn't fun at all. I had to use a block and tackle or it wouldn't budge.

A 4000lbs winch would be perfect....... for a 4 wheeler.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:14 PM   #10
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Thank you, Sir George! There's nothing like actual evidence to put a theory to the test : )
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:25 PM   #11
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Does anyone have experience using winches rated to less than 8000lbs? I'd like to hear how they worked, to get a feel for what's really required in the real-world.
Any old Jeep owner, like me, will have experience using a smaller winch. All winches used to be smaller than 8k. The one on my CJ is 5k.

You just use snatch blocks.

Winches have gone thru a huge "arms race" in the past 10 years or so. The idea of a 12k winch used to be a joke, but I've seen Wranglers with them.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:26 PM   #12
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DAMN AC!! Impressive!
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:36 PM   #13
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Rt40 is definately a quad winch
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:41 PM   #14
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I've got a warn 8274 on mine, and yes its been called overkill but it is better to have and not need than need and not have!!
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:48 PM   #15
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Geoff- that is interesting evidence. When I first read into winches, 8000lbs sounded hilariously overkill given the physics of the situation. Surely a winch able to lift the truck straight up is enough.

Reading a bit more, I can see how 12,000lbs force is necessary if you're stuck up to the doorhandles in muck, or dragging frame on rocks. Fully trail loaded. Up a hill. With the brakes locked. And the tide coming in...

Here's some info I found which seems to be derived from authoritative sources such as the US Military Vehicle Recovery Guide:

Pirate4x4.Com - Extreme Four Wheel Drive

The cliff notes version is:
Stuck to sidewalls, multiply vehicle weight by 1
Stuck to wheels, multiply by 2
Stuck to frame, multiply by 3

Flat surface, don't add anything more
Up a 15 degree hill, add again 25% vehicle weight
30 degree hill, add again 50% vehicle weight
45 degree hill, add again 75% vehicle weight

Of course the link has much more info than just that : )
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Old 06-13-2011, 09:33 PM   #16
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I had a 16.5 EP Superwinch on my CJ5...... and I wass DAMN glad to have the excess on one of the occasions I used it. The other occasion I did not need all of that HP... but pulled the CJ5 up into a tree for the enjoyment......still have the winch....CJ5 has gone to a new owner....

One cannot beat Superwinch for $$$$ VALUE.....IMHO...

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