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Old 02-28-2013, 09:22 PM   #1
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Why are cops so Ignorant?

So I was exiting my college parking structure and right on the exit is a crosswalk. Well a cop decides he wants to enter the structure, so me and this cop are sitting there waiting for people to finish crossing. When I start to drive by him he turns his lights on and tells me to stop. He asked me...


COP: "Why are you driving with your fog lights on when there is no fog?"

ME: "Because I can. Why do you ask?"

COP:"You were blinding me with your fog lights." (Which I know he was lying about.)

ME:"(Point at ground)Look at where the fog lights are shining, they are pointing straight down I couldnt have been blinding you" (Cop doesnt even look)

Then the cop tells me to back up into the parking lot and stop. So then the convo went something like this.


COP:"step down"

ME:"There is no way I blinded you, look at the where the fogs are pointing."(Cop doesnt look again)

COP:"It is illegal to drive with fog lights on when there is no fog."

ME:"Ive researched california laws on lights and the law states that I cannot have more than 4 lights on while driving."

(V C Section 24403 Foglamps)

COP:"Im trying to be nice to you, Im not going to give you a ticket why are you arguing with me."

ME:"Because what you are saying is contradicting what the law says."

COP:"(Says shit I didnt even listen)"

ME: "Ok Ok, ill turn them off"

COP:" Next time I see you driving with the fog lights on ill give you a ticket and you'll take it to court."

ME:"Have a nice day (shakes hand)."

So from what I know you can drive with fog lights on no matter the weather, as long as the lights are pointed properly. Well I tryed to show this cop that my lights were pointed properly and he wouldnt listen or look.

If you measured the distance from my fogs to the point the light hit the ground, youd get around 8-12 feet. No way he got blinded by them. And to add he was in a SUV.

So what would be my best bet for dealing with a cop like this? Keep a copy of the DMV code on fog lights for future encounters? Most importantly, was I wrong with anything?

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Old 02-28-2013, 09:31 PM   #2
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Best thing would be to let him ticket you and then file a complaint with his department if the ticket is improper. Then, go to court with it. If he does it again after that, go after the department for harassment. Sue them for monetary damages, they usually have budget problems as it is. Above all, realize you won't win on the side of the road and it's not a good place to argue because it usually doesn't accomplish anything.

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Old 02-28-2013, 09:33 PM   #3
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So, why were you driving with your fog lights on? Lol.

In my many years on this planet, I have figured out it's best not to argue or challenge the LEO's.

Sure you have good ones and bad ones, but a simple "sorry, I'll turn them off" would of ended the conversation at the crosswalk. You would of been on your way.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by tkfx View Post

ME:"Ive researched california laws on lights and the law states that I cannot have more than 4 lights on while driving."
You answered your own question

I've had some good experiences with CHP but also some outright effing ridiculous experiences with them.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:47 PM   #5
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Well I drive with my fogs on because thats just me, but I didnt just want to let him have his way. I thought I can argue what he was saying by stating the law but I guess he didnt care.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:53 PM   #6
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Well I drive with my fogs on because thats just me, but I didnt just want to let him have his way. I thought I can argue what he was saying by stating the law but I guess he didnt care.
I drive with my lights and fogs on too, not sure about the law up here but i like to think since its snowing alot lately, helps others see me better...
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:53 PM   #7
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Best thing would be to let him ticket you and then file a complaint with his department if the ticket is improper. Then, go to court with it. If he does it again after that, go after the department for harassment. Sue them for monetary damages, they usually have budget problems as it is. Above all, realize you won't win on the side of the road and it's not a good place to argue because it usually doesn't accomplish anything.
^^^This
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:54 PM   #8
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Well I drive with my fogs on because thats just me, but I didnt just want to let him have his way. I thought I can argue what he was saying by stating the law but I guess he didnt care.
You did the best thing by eventually just rolling with it. Unfortunately the stereotypical cops are growing by the masses. As long as theres not a wrongful ticket or seizure involved I'll throw out the Yes sir/ma'am, kiss a little ass and be on my way.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:55 PM   #9
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You need to contact his department, and make a formal complaint. The department maybe completely unaware that he is harassing the public. A police officer cannot stop anyone for just pleasure, they have to have probable cause. Seriously make a complaint either by phone or in person.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:00 PM   #10
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V C Section 24403 Foglamps

Foglamps

24403. (a) A motor vehicle may be equipped with not more than two foglamps that may be used with, but may not be used in substitution of, headlamps.

(b) On a motor vehicle other than a motorcycle, the foglamps authorized under this section shall be mounted on the front at a height of not less than 12 inches nor more than 30 inches and aimed so that when the vehicle is not loaded none of the high-intensity portion of the light to the left of the center of the vehicle projects higher than a level of four inches below the level of the center of the lamp from which it comes, for a distance of 25 feet in front of the vehicle.

(c) On a motorcycle, the foglamps authorized under this section shall be mounted on the front at a height of not less than 12 inches nor more than 40 inches and aimed so that when the vehicle is not loaded none of the high-intensity portion of the light to the left of the center of the vehicle projects higher than a level of four inches below the level of the center of the lamp from which it comes, for a distance of 25 feet in front of the vehicle.

Looks like the first sub section of the law says you are in fact wrong. Though some police officers do have an attitude, I work with some of them, arguing when pulled over shows that you know as much about California law as you have common sense.

Thank you officer, I didn't know (while you we're turning them off) would of made everything better. Remember, it is illegal to disregard even an unlawful order/arrest from a police officer. That's what court is for.

And why would you have foglight a that face straight down??
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:02 PM   #11
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You were absolutely in the wrong. Have you ever seen the complete California motor vehicle code? It is a large paperback book that is over 4" thick with thousands of pages.

The only traffic regulations that they typically enforce are those few that you will find in the driver's test and the small study booklet that the DMV hands out to prepare you for it. All those OTHER regulations are there for the purposes of the ATTITUDE ADJUSTMENT of drivers that the various police forces interact with.

This is how the system works. If you get stopped it is probably for doing something stupid. If it is one of the few actually enforced regulations, such as running a red light, you should and you most likely will get a ticket. If it is because of something else, such as blaring music in an open vehicle or bright foglights, you will probably get a warning. If you mouth off to the cop, you probably have just talked yourself into a ticket.

In any case, past the initial infraction, everything else is all about the attitude displayed by you to the police officer. Believe me, cops study the motor vehicle code steadily and regularly and they know way more about it than you do. The worse is your attitude, the more traffic infractions get added to your ticket. In California, they can pull a roadside vehicle inspection at any time, and most Jeeps are ripe candidates for adding infractions related to both mandatory equipment and aftermarket accessories.

When you go before the judge in traffic court (which is another stupid thing to do, versus paying the fine) he will simply count the number of added infractions and guage quite accurately just how disrespectfull you were to the officer at the time of the ticket. Then he will use his judicial discretion to add points to your license. The combination of points and age has been known to increase insurance costs so much for so long that Jeep owners have been unable to make loan payments, much less afford Jeep mods. We are talking about insurance price increases that amount to thousands of dollars - and you will NOT be able to find a better deal, as they all have the same access to your driving record.

Your very best strategy for dealing with such incidents in the future:

1) Don't do stupid things to annoy the police.

2) Do act quite politely and respectfully when you interact with the police. Address him/her as "Sir" or "Mam".

3) Comply with his request immediately. In fact failing to obey a police officer is a misdemeanor crime, a whole level of offense above a traffic infraction, and one that will result in a criminal record that will be available to your employer and will impact the rest of your life.

4) Don't as a matter of course, ask for input about either traffic regulations or laws in an Internet Forum. You get lots of bad advice that way, from people as ignorant as you.

I am outta this thread, no more discussion. Consider carefully what I said.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:12 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by 00tj2 View Post
V C Section 24403 Foglamps

Foglamps

24403. (a) A motor vehicle may be equipped with not more than two foglamps that may be used with, but may not be used in substitution of, headlamps.

(b) On a motor vehicle other than a motorcycle, the foglamps authorized under this section shall be mounted on the front at a height of not less than 12 inches nor more than 30 inches and aimed so that when the vehicle is not loaded none of the high-intensity portion of the light to the left of the center of the vehicle projects higher than a level of four inches below the level of the center of the lamp from which it comes, for a distance of 25 feet in front of the vehicle.

(c) On a motorcycle, the foglamps authorized under this section shall be mounted on the front at a height of not less than 12 inches nor more than 40 inches and aimed so that when the vehicle is not loaded none of the high-intensity portion of the light to the left of the center of the vehicle projects higher than a level of four inches below the level of the center of the lamp from which it comes, for a distance of 25 feet in front of the vehicle.

Looks like the first sub section of the law says you are in fact wrong. Though some police officers do have an attitude, I work with some of them, arguing when pulled over shows that you know as much about California law as you have common sense.

Thank you officer, I didn't know (while you we're turning them off) would of made everything better. Remember, it is illegal to disregard even an unlawful order/arrest from a police officer. That's what court is for.

And why would you have foglight a that face straight down??
Where does it show he's wrong? All it says is as long as his headlights are also on and the fog lights are properly aimed he can have them on.


I'm sure he's exaggerating about them being pointed straight down.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:22 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by 00tj2 View Post

Looks like the first sub section of the law says you are in fact wrong. Though some police officers do have an attitude, I work with some of them, arguing when pulled over shows that you know as much about California law as you have common sense.

Thank you officer, I didn't know (while you we're turning them off) would of made everything better. Remember, it is illegal to disregard even an unlawful order/arrest from a police officer. That's what court is for.

And why would you have foglight a that face straight down??
The first subsection says that I cannot use fog lights as a substitue for headlights. If we take off the part about the substitution we get this

"A motor vehicle may be equipped with not more than two foglamps that may be used with, headlamps."

Also the fog lights arent "straight down" that was exaggerated because he was telling me he got "blinded".




Quote:
You were absolutely in the wrong. Have you ever seen the complete California motor vehicle code? It is a large paperback book that is over 4" thick with thousands of pages.
California Vehicle Code 24403 (a) states that : A motor vehicle may be equipped with not more than two
foglamps that may be used with, but may not be used in substitution
of, headlamps.

Also if we look at California Vehicle Code 24405 (a) we can see that it says:

Not more than four lamps of the following types showing
to the front of a vehicle may be lighted at any one time:
(1) Headlamps.
(2) Auxiliary driving or passing lamps.
(3) Fog lamps.
(4) Warning lamps.
(5) Spot lamps.
(6) Gaseous discharge lamps specified in Section 25258.
(b) For the purpose of this section each pair of a dual headlamp
system shall be considered as one lamp.


So from what I can understand I was doing everything within the law. I had 4 lamps on.


So how was I wrong? Because I was aruging that the cop didnt know the law and he was harrassing me because of it? Heck he didnt even tell me the vehicle code that I broke, he just blatantly said that fog lights cant be turned on when there is no fog.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:27 PM   #14
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Because I'm sure he didn't have his headlines on too. And btw that was a 5 second search of the California VTL, and its not complete.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:27 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by KaiserJeep View Post
You were absolutely in the wrong. Have you ever seen the complete California motor vehicle code? It is a large paperback book that is over 4" thick with thousands of pages.

The only traffic regulations that they typically enforce are those few that you will find in the driver's test and the small study booklet that the DMV hands out to prepare you for it. All those OTHER regulations are there for the purposes of the ATTITUDE ADJUSTMENT of drivers that the various police forces interact with.

This is how the system works. If you get stopped it is probably for doing something stupid. If it is one of the few actually enforced regulations, such as running a red light, you should and you most likely will get a ticket. If it is because of something else, such as blaring music in an open vehicle or bright foglights, you will probably get a warning. If you mouth off to the cop, you probably have just talked yourself into a ticket.

In any case, past the initial infraction, everything else is all about the attitude displayed by you to the police officer. Believe me, cops study the motor vehicle code steadily and regularly and they know way more about it than you do. The worse is your attitude, the more traffic infractions get added to your ticket. In California, they can pull a roadside vehicle inspection at any time, and most Jeeps are ripe candidates for adding infractions related to both mandatory equipment and aftermarket accessories.

When you go before the judge in traffic court (which is another stupid thing to do, versus paying the fine) he will simply count the number of added infractions and guage quite accurately just how disrespectfull you were to the officer at the time of the ticket. Then he will use his judicial discretion to add points to your license. The combination of points and age has been known to increase insurance costs so much for so long that Jeep owners have been unable to make loan payments, much less afford Jeep mods. We are talking about insurance price increases that amount to thousands of dollars - and you will NOT be able to find a better deal, as they all have the same access to your driving record.

Your very best strategy for dealing with such incidents in the future:

1) Don't do stupid things to annoy the police.

2) Do act quite politely and respectfully when you interact with the police. Address him/her as "Sir" or "Mam".

3) Comply with his request immediately. In fact failing to obey a police officer is a misdemeanor crime, a whole level of offense above a traffic infraction, and one that will result in a criminal record that will be available to your employer and will impact the rest of your life.

4) Don't as a matter of course, ask for input about either traffic regulations or laws in an Internet Forum. You get lots of bad advice that way, from people as ignorant as you.

I am outta this thread, no more discussion. Consider carefully what I said.
^^^He's right. I used to work in law enforcement and I will tell you that with all the bad stuff they see to downright stupid, if you catch one in a mad mood you will know it. Just imagine if you are really upset about something unrelated and then someone does something minor they are gonna nail you on it. Last time I got pulled was for speeding. "Yes sir, I do not know how fast I was going, but if you witnessed it, then that's what I was doing because you have no reason to lie to me. I accept responsibility for my actions". He actually thanked me for my cooperation and gave me a verbal warning. Win-win!
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:28 PM   #16
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Yes sir, no sir, thank you sir, & move along. It's not worth the argument & your thread title paints with a broad stroke.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:30 PM   #17
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Life is often easier when you just say "oh, sorry about that.....I did not know it. Thanks."

Then drive away and turn them back on.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:30 PM   #18
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CA Codes (veh:24400-24411)

Here is the link to cite my sources. I think that whole section sums it up about fog lights. If there was such a vehicle code about fog lights and when they can and cant be used then it would be in this section.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:32 PM   #19
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I hate kissing ass to cops and the fact that I had just got out of 3 hours of math might have affected what I said.

I was being as nice as possible trying to explain him what I knew. Hell i even shaked his hand at the end. It just aggrivated me that I was being told something which I know is not true.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:34 PM   #20
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Ok, so you did have all four lights on. Again, to argue when you were only getting a warning is stupid. On top of that if it was a CHP officer I'm pretty sure that he knows more than you and me and anyone else on here unless they are a lawyer in California or a CHP or local officer.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:35 PM   #21
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He was a campus police officer. If he was CHP then thats another story. He told me he wont give me a ticket near the end, I needed to clear things up because I potentioly will be seeing this cop about 4 times a week so I dont really want a ticket next time for something which isnt true.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:36 PM   #22
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When I was younger, I would have to say that if I was placed in a similar situation, I would prolly acted abit rash. But now, the quicker the situation is done with, the better for everyone in the long run.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:36 PM   #23
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While I haven't seen anything showing you're wrong you might want to double check your fog light alignment...who knows maybe they moved when wheelin'. All you need is some masking tape, a flat wall, a level surface and five minutes of your time. I align my fogs way below my headlights so that they undercut any fog..usually a couple feet off the ground from 25' away.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:38 PM   #24
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Maybe you need to calm down and have a more positive attitude. You might be right but what people here are telling you is correct. No sir, yes sir...etc gets you a lot farther than the attitude you just described.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:40 PM   #25
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You can copy and paste all the motor vehicle codes you want.

Simple fact is you could of said, "Sorry, I'll turn them off", and you would of been on your merry little way. Instead, you challenged him on the law, and gave him attitude.

Once he has you stopped for anything and your license in his hand, he can nick pick any number of things on your rig. It's not worth it, and an expensive lesson I learned many years ago.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:43 PM   #26
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Well I learned my lesson for the future, yes sir no sir.... First time I had a encounter like that so I had to find out someway. Luckly I got the easy way. He didnt even ask for my license or name.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:48 PM   #27
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Well I learned my lesson for the future, yes sir no sir.... First time I had a encounter like that so I had to find out someway. Luckly I got the easy way. He didnt even ask for my license or name.
Its a life lesson right? Sometimes its worth fighting for and sometimes its not... Its all a matter of perspective.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:49 PM   #28
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He was a campus police officer. If he was CHP then thats another story. He told me he wont give me a ticket near the end, I needed to clear things up because I potentioly will be seeing this cop about 4 times a week so I dont really want a ticket next time for something which isnt true.
That explains a lot. While campus police are peace officers they usually lack experience and aren't as knowledgeable as a city/county/state officer. If you want you can go into their campus office and ask them to clarify the law on fog lights. That way you won't piss this officer off and risk future encounters since you'll be seeing him four days a week .
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:50 PM   #29
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I know a few LEOs and a couple HPOs... they eat kids up for even smaller misdemeanors. You don't have to be a kiss-ass, just do what they ask you to do the first time and call it done. Report the information to the local HQ and let the legislation deal with the problems. You can report issues along the lines of asking whether or not something is legal and you can even ask why or why not. Don't question the jonnies in the field, gets you tickets if you aren't careful.

EDIT: LOL, campus cop. Must be a rental.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:52 PM   #30
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Well I learned my lesson for the future, yes sir no sir.... First time I had a encounter like that so I had to find out someway. Luckly I got the easy way. He didnt even ask for my license or name.
Thank you for taking this in a positive manner.

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