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Old 08-23-2012, 10:16 AM   #1
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Why to or not have one Clevite and one JJ on Control Arms

Is there a reason to have or not to have one Clevite and one JJ on the control arms. I currently have JKS arms with over 70k miles and the clevites have not worn out.

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Old 08-23-2012, 10:19 AM   #2
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From what I have read here it's all about better flex and less stress on your mounts.

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Old 08-23-2012, 10:38 AM   #3
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Stress on the mounts themselves is something I had not thought of.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:43 AM   #4
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There's absolutely no reason to run a Clevite bushing on one end with a JJ on the other. There are many reasons to run JJ's on both ends. Not doing so is just a downgrade.
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Old 08-23-2012, 10:45 AM   #5
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:15 PM   #6
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Yep the only benefit to having a clevite on one end is it costs less.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:28 PM   #7
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So was I correct?

I have been reading this forum for over a year now and I would like to think I have learned something
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:39 PM   #8
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So was I correct?

I have been reading this forum for over a year now and I would like to think I have learned something
A little hands-on experience goes a lot further than a bunch of reading.
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Old 08-23-2012, 01:56 PM   #9
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A little hands-on experience goes a lot further than a bunch of reading.

I'm getting there. I have to pay the f'ing hospital $15k this year so i had to put the Jeep on hold. At least i will have most of my research done by the time I can start. Final payment will be in December so maybe I can get her a Christmas present.
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Old 08-23-2012, 02:49 PM   #10
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Ouch.....at least that's good timing.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:02 PM   #11
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I'm assuming that a Clevite joint is a regular type joint. If so, is one JJ better than none? I would assume so.
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Old 08-23-2012, 11:06 PM   #12
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Yes, the clevite is the OEM bushing. I just see some arms have one OME and one JJ. I did not know if this was to help with alignment of the arm while the JJ allowed flex. Plus the rubber would absorb vibration while the JJ would maintain a rigid connection.

Maybe I'll just flip a coin.
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Old 08-24-2012, 07:18 AM   #13
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Plus the rubber would absorb vibration while the JJ would maintain a rigid connection.
Incorrect.

You've been advised on here and every other forum you've posted these questions on to go with JJ's on both ends. Why ask for advice if you're just gonna flip a coin on it anyway?
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:47 AM   #14
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Imped,

Which one is incorrect? That rubber absorbs more vibrations? Or, that JJ's are a more rigid connection. From what I was reading in that SUPER LONG MetalCloak thread it seemed people were saying rubber absorbed more vibration and the JJs seemed to be a more rigid connection.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:51 AM   #15
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If you put someone blindfolded into a rig and drove them around in a vehicle with stock arms and then JJs all the way around, I'd guess they would have a hard time telling which had more vibes because of the control arm joints. I've gone from stock control arms to JJs, and I noticed 0 increase in the amount of vibrations. The only change I saw was an overall tightness to the suspension.

Throwing one clevite bushings on one end of the arm isn't going to do much in my opinion.

No idea what you're talking about in regards to alignment of the arm. Do you mean how the JJ is positioned between the brackets? If so, that really doesn't matter provided the arm was tightened correctly so both joints are neutral.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:15 AM   #16
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geiman,

That is great to hear. I have been running Clevites in the JKS arms and have had zero issues with the bushings themselves so I have been hesitant to give them up completely. I guess I can go with JJ's and if I really hate, which I doubt, I can always switch out an end. I am now leaning towards Rokmen.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:17 AM   #17
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If your arms are fine now, why are you looking to switch them out?

As far as what arms to get, you can't really go wrong if there are JJs at both ends. What's in between the arms is usually less important.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:21 AM   #18
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As I've commented on one of your other threads, this subject has literally been beaten to death. It's WELL documented that JJ's are not rigidly mounted--yes, the center ball is but it's enveloped in a urethane isolation element. You gain the benefits of a nearly hard-mounted connection--virtually no axle wrap or unwanted movement of any kind, you retain NVH absorption, and you gain massive amounts of durability and misalignment capability. I feel like I keep repeating myself in your threads: There's not a con to JJ's.

As for the MC/JJ thread, you can rest assured that anyone that actually thinks you'll be able to notice a difference in NVH absorption between bushings and JJ's has no experience with JJ's. I've got no problems with the MC bushings. In fact, I think the concept is great and I'd place them right behind JJ's in terms of what I would run.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:26 AM   #19
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I worded that very carefully. The bushings are fine. The arms are not. They are starting to make clunking noise from the center pivot. You can actually take them off and push and pull on it and the noise is audible and you can feel the movement.
Oddly, if you screw it in or out a little you can get it to make the noise. I actually sent them back to JKS after talking to them. They stated nothing was wrong, but when I got them back they had obviously be rebuilt. It too 60k miles for them to start making the noise, which I am fine with that mileage, but it only took 10k for them to start making it again.

So I figure it is time to start looking at all the options on the market. Everyone has been great for the most part in sharing their knowledge and experiences. I really despite waisting money and having buyers regret so I try to find feedback from as many places as possible. I find the many people don't frequent all the forums so I post the questions across all of them. You'd be surprised how different the feedback can be some times. Especially if you get feedback from a Rockcrawler forum versus more of an Long Trip kind of forum. It is defintely fun talking with everyone.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:29 AM   #20
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Imped,

What is NVH absorption?
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:30 AM   #21
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I certainly can't claim to be the most hardcore out there, but I wheel mostly in large rocks; that said, it's inevitable to avoid mud completely but I do try. And until I move in another couple of months I'm putting about 100 miles a day on the Jeep commuting to and from work.

After having my JJ arms for about a year, I did an axle swap and took the opportunity to take the joints apart to see how they were holding up. After cleaning them up, they looked perfect; I reassembled them and they're still as tight and quiet as the day I got them. I believe Imped ran his dry for a few years and had the same results. I have no doubt any arm with JJs at both ends will last much longer than the arms you're currently using.

NVH stands for Noise, Vibration, Harshness:

Noise, vibration, and harshness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:33 AM   #22
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Let me google that for you

Research.

As for JKS arms, that's an exact issue a buddy of mine had with them and that's a great reason why I consider them overpriced, glorified stock arms. The pivot is a point of wear and doesn't account for the axles' lateral arcs described by the track bars. That buddy swapped out the JKS arms for Currie arms and said his rig had never driven better on our test drive.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:39 AM   #23
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Sweet, that is what I needed to hear. Since Jeff and Dave at Rokmen are local and I have been buying from them since they were in Dave's Garage, I will just give them call and make the switch soon.

I love to think I could sell my JKS arms but I'd feel bad handing them over knowing they will make noises. Scrap metal for projects I guess.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:41 AM   #24
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I think this begs the question, "When will I see the benefits of using control arms with two Johnny Joints instead of one Johnny Joint and one Clevite bushing?"

I would guess not until you're at least four inches over factory height. My jeep only has an Old Man Emu 2 inch lift. I have Rokmen arms with dual Johnny Joints and my limiting factor has always been the length of my shocks.

As far as rubber vs. Johnny Joint isolation properties... I've very sensitive when it comes to the feel and handling of my jeep. When I had my "Torsion" rubber M.O.R.E. motor mounts installed, I instantly felt a lot more vibration from the engine. But, when I switched from factory control arms to the Rokmen arms with dual Johnny Joints, I couldn't feel any change at all.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:45 AM   #25
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Border Dave,

You bring up a good point. I should have pointed out the I am only running OME as well which is probably why my Clevites have survived so well. I'm quite excited to see how the ride will be with the JJs.
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Old 08-24-2012, 11:58 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Border Dave View Post

I would guess not until you're at least four inches over factory height.
I'm not seeing the correlation. Care to expand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Border Dave View Post
But, when I switched from factory control arms to the Rokmen arms with dual Johnny Joints, I couldn't feel any change at all.
I'm assuming you're referring to perceived NVH?
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Old 08-24-2012, 12:54 PM   #27
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I run TeraFlex arms with a flex joint on one end and a Clevite bushing on the other. They ride smooth, but my flexing is limited. I am also concerned about stress on the frame side CA mounts.

The sales guy that sold them to me said the Clevite will absorb vibration. It makes sense to me. I imagine thick rubber will cushion more than thinner and harder urethane.

However, I've read many first hand experiences about JJs riding fine. I'll take that over a thought experiment any day. Because of this I would choose JJs on both ends without a doubt.
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Old 08-24-2012, 01:01 PM   #28
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Random question :P

What is the difference between the joint TF uses and Rock Krawler ?
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Old 08-24-2012, 05:10 PM   #29
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Quote:
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I'm not seeing the correlation. Care to expand?
With longer springs your axle will flex more and your control arms will twist more, thereby the need for flexier joints such as the Johnny Joints to spare the mounts, no? I don't think you get enough droop out of a two inch lift to necessitate control arms with dual Johnny Joints.

Quote:
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I'm assuming you're referring to perceived NVH?
I don't know what "NVH" is, but When I installed my Rokmen arms with dual Johnny Joints in place of the factory control arms, I felt no extra vibrations through the frame/body and it handled just as well as with the factory arms.

So what I'm saying is that I don't think I take full advantage of having control arms with dual Johnny Joints with only a two inch lift, but there is no downside to them that I can perceive, other than the cost. (and a little more unsprung weight. Man, these CAs are beefy.)
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:43 AM   #30
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Quote:
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With longer springs your axle will flex more and your control arms will twist more, thereby the need for flexier joints such as the Johnny Joints to spare the mounts, no? I don't think you get enough droop out of a two inch lift to necessitate control arms with dual Johnny Joints.
Generally speaking, yes. There are 2-3" coils that have a free length about equal to some 4" springs. I run about 2" over stock with 12" travel shocks, so there's no direct correlation. And what if you take a rig that is setup with 14" coilovers on each corner but happens to sit @ +2" over stock? Again, no correlation. Lastly, I don't consider the 'necessity' for dual JJ arms a function of droop and potential articulation. First and foremost, I recommend JJ's for durability, nearly maintenance-free and silent operation, and a superior ability to constrain the axle vs. bushings. The much-increased misalignment capability is just a nice byproduct.

Quote:
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I don't know what "NVH" is, but When I installed my Rokmen arms with dual Johnny Joints in place of the factory control arms, I felt no extra vibrations through the frame/body and it handled just as well as with the factory arms.

So what I'm saying is that I don't think I take full advantage of having control arms with dual Johnny Joints with only a two inch lift, but there is no downside to them that I can perceive, other than the cost. (and a little more unsprung weight. Man, these CAs are beefy.)
NVH=noise, vibration and harshness. And your'e right, anyone that says they feel an increase in actual vibrations is full of it. You should feel more control and response, a tighter ride, and generally a fantastic-feeling suspension. And believe me, you're not even close to taking full advantage of having dual JJ's if the only piece of criteria you look at is travel. In that regard, neither am I. But look at the other reasons for JJ's and you'll probably agree that you're taking full advantage of them.

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