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Old 01-06-2013, 10:50 PM   #1
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I am running stock speakers with a Sony CDX-GT56UI I got for Christmas. My sony headunit has these stats that I just pulled off sony's website:

[ Automatic Level Optimizer : Yes

Aux-In : Yes (Front)

DM+ (Codec enhancer) : Yes(Gen2.1)

EQ : EQ7: 7 band EQ with +/- 6 dB adjustment at 63 Hz, 160 Hz, 400 Hz, 1000 Hz, 2.5 kHz, 6.3 kHz and 16 kHz.

High Pass Filter : Selectable on/off at: 50, 60, 80, 100 or 120 Hz.

Loudness : Dynamic Loudness

Low Pass Filter : Selectable on/off at: 50, 60, 80, 100 or 120 Hz.

Output Power (4ohm, 1kHz,16V)(W) : 52 watts x 4 ]

After playing around with the settings, I've already gotten the whole system sounding phenomenally better, and being able to use my iPod is something I can't believe I was missing.

My first question is how to interpret the last line of the head unit stats; does that make it a decent, crappy, good, or just-barely-enough-there headunit to run a good sound system? I plan to be driving the Jeep for a very long time (its a stock 04 TJ 4 banger, and it just has 42,000 miles as of yesterday) Regardless of the head unit, after doing some research, I am starting to narrow down my speaker choices. Right now I'm leaning towards these

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DXI6...o-DXi6500.html

for the sound bar (id have to drill the holes for the tweeters) and these

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DB52...io-db5251.html

for the dash, with Nalin's adapter plates and Tweeter location brackets. A big plus(for me anyway) for these speakers is that they are waterproof. I've heard that as long as the cone isn't paper, a speaker is basically waterproof, but its nice to have that big label stating so.

Looking at this setup, the only things missing are the bass and amp. I assume I'll be able to get a sufficient amp for the speakers listed and mount it high and dry under the dash, along with the front 2 crossovers like I've seen done elsewhere on the forum. I'm not sure where I'll mount the rear crossovers. Are they also waterproof?

Anyway, my main questions are:

Is the factory speaker wire in the Jeep sufficient/of a high enough gauge that I don't need to mess with it, or do I need to replace it if I'm gonna be tearing everything apart and running wires anyway?

How do you calculate the wattage needed from an amp for a set of speakers, such as the ones I've listed? Do you add the wattage from each seperate speaker together and then find an amp that supplies that amount?

Do things like polyfil and dynamat make that big a difference?

Do you think that this:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_777B8PT...PT.html?tp=114

would be enough of a bottom end to keep up with the upgraded speakers? Since its a powered sub that fits under the rear seat, it wouldn't take any space/require a seperate amp, but then again its a powered sub that doesn't take any space/require a seperate amp and fits under the rear seat. My jeep didn't come with a console, so one of the first things we did was order a tuffy security center console, so I don't have the option of easily putting a sub there. I have looked into this option:

http://www.jeepz.com/forum/accessori...rear-seat.html

It would require a lot more more blood sweat and tears, and then more blood, than the powered sub, but would probably be able to put out more quality sound than the powered sub as well. I feel that it would be a challenge, but I have full access to a very decent woodshop and experienced carpenter (my dad) so it would be doable. If I went that route, the first speaker I've considered would be 1, maybe/probably even 2, of these:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Pion...hrome&ie=UTF-8

And that goes back to the question of, how to calculate the wattage/voltage to determine what amp to buy, etc. These subs are the first I've looked at, if the powered sub isn't a good idea. I may just get the powered sub anyway, and run it until I get everything for the seat idea. I'm hoping that if you brace it correctly it won't matter who sits on it (I'm 6'3" 288, so it would have to be pretty hefty) but I know that you will be losing padding, and therefore comfort, but hopefully its not ridiculous. I'm guessing I could just put the amp under the seat but not sure. I guess it would stay dry there but not entirely certain.

In case its not already blatently apparent, I plan on the Jeep getting wet. I'll try to not leave it out in a hurricane, but I don't wanna have to worry if I'm in class and it starts dumping in a sudden shower. I'm considering getting the iVault for the storage drawer and the faceplate cover that I could throw on if it started raining. As soon as its warm everything comes off and stays off for as long as possible. I have a bikini top but I barely run that.

Yet another idea I've had are ammo cans with speakers mounted in them, somehow attached to the fender. But this would just be a side project, with speakers that aren't crazy expensive so I won't feel as bad if they got jacked.

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Old 01-06-2013, 11:04 PM   #2
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I would post some pics but it keeps saying I exceeded my quota.

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Old 01-07-2013, 02:28 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_a914
My first question is how to interpret the last line of the head unit stats; does that make it a decent, crappy, good, or just-barely-enough-there headunit to run a good sound system?
With standard coaxial speakers, the aftermarket headunit power is probably sufficient for many listeners. If you go with component speakers, you will want to give them more power with an external amp in order to really hear the benefit components give, as well as improve clarity at high volumes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_a914
right now I'm leaning towards these
{Polk DXi6500}
for the sound bar (id have to drill the holes for the tweeters) and these
{Polk db5251}
for the dash, with Nalin's adapter plates and Tweeter location brackets.
Looking at this setup, the only things missing are the bass and amp. I assume I'll be able to get a sufficient amp for the speakers listed and mount it high and dry under the dash, along with the front 2 crossovers like I've seen done elsewhere on the forum. I'm not sure where I'll mount the rear crossovers. Are they also waterproof?
Crossovers are not really waterproof unless they use all non-corrosive terminals and components. I mounted my front speaker crossovers under the dash near the speakers themselves, and my rear soundbar crossovers are installed directly below my radio, behind the HVAC controls. Mounting them in the soundbar itself would probably be fine, but be sure to secure them in some way so they don't slide/rattle in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_a914
Is the factory speaker wire in the Jeep sufficient/of a high enough gauge that I don't need to mess with it, or do I need to replace it if I'm gonna be tearing everything apart and running wires anyway?
I would replace it all if you plan to add any kind of external amp for the speakers. The factory wiring is around 18 gauge, 16 gauge is more appropriate for anything over 25 watts of continuous power. An important thing to note when buying wire is to make sure it's a true American Wire Gauge wire. Many bargain wire manufacturers use more insulation and less copper to cut costs... look for CEA compliant wiring or the AWG rating somewhere. KnuKonceptz is an excellent online source of quality wire for a good price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_a914
How do you calculate the wattage needed from an amp for a set of speakers, such as the ones I've listed? Do you add the wattage from each seperate speaker together and then find an amp that supplies that amount?
Look at the nominal impedance of the speaker (ohms) , as well as the RMS or continuous power rating (watts). Then look at the amp's RMS power ratings at your speaker's impedance. Amps will advertise "X" watts @ 4 ohms or "Y" watts @2 ohms. If your speaker is 4 ohms, it will get X watts, and if it's 2 ohms, it will get Y watts. Look for an amp that puts out close to the speaker's rated power, but try not to go over unless you know how to properly tune your amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_a914
Do things like polyfil and dynamat make that big a difference?
Yes, they really do. I think the thing that made the biggest difference for my front speakers are the foam baffles I recently installed. Dynamat and polyfill will help improve the midbass in your system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_a914
Do you think that this:
{Sound Ordinance 8"}
would be enough of a bottom end to keep up with the upgraded speakers? Since its a powered sub that fits under the rear seat, it wouldn't take any space/require a seperate amp, but then again its a powered sub that doesn't take any space/require a seperate amp and fits under the rear seat. My jeep didn't come with a console, so one of the first things we did was order a tuffy security center console, so I don't have the option of easily putting a sub there. I have looked into this option:
{Sub in wrangler rear seat}
It would require a lot more more blood sweat and tears, and then more blood, than the powered sub, but would probably be able to put out more quality sound than the powered sub as well. I feel that it would be a challenge, but I have full access to a very decent woodshop and experienced carpenter (my dad) so it would be doable. If I went that route, the first speaker I've considered would be 1, maybe/probably even 2, of these:
{Pioneer slim mount subs}
And that goes back to the question of, how to calculate the wattage/voltage to determine what amp to buy, etc. These subs are the first I've looked at, if the powered sub isn't a good idea. I may just get the powered sub anyway, and run it until I get everything for the seat idea. I'm hoping that if you brace it correctly it won't matter who sits on it (I'm 6'3" 288, so it would have to be pretty hefty) but I know that you will be losing padding, and therefore comfort, but hopefully its not ridiculous. I'm guessing I could just put the amp under the seat but not sure. I guess it would stay dry there but not entirely certain.
I would go the sub in the rear seat route if you are really serious about your sound and don't mind putting a bit of work into it. The seat should hold up to a hefty occupant fine, but it probably won't be real comfortable for them; you will have to remove some of the padding. If you plan to go this route, I would go with a 5-channel amp to mount under the dash - I fit an Alpine MRX-V70 5-channel under mine and still have full tilt on the steering wheel. I would also look into the Kicker CompVT 10" subs; I would think just 1 10" would sound better than having 2 of them crammed into the same airspace.

If you want to keep it simple and don't mind giving up a bit of space, I would go with a good 4-channel amp for under the dash, and the sound ordinance 8" under your seat. This will sound good, but the 8" may have some issues going really low or getting very loud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_a914
Yet another idea I've had are ammo cans with speakers mounted in them, somehow attached to the fender. But this would just be a side project, with speakers that aren't crazy expensive so I won't feel as bad if they got jacked.
If you plan to do this, make sure you dynamat the crap out of the cans... metal doesn't generally make an acoustically pleasing enclosure.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:35 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by eboven View Post

I would go the sub in the rear seat route if you are really serious about your sound and don't mind putting a bit of work into it. The seat should hold up to a hefty occupant fine, but it probably won't be real comfortable for them; you will have to remove some of the padding. If you plan to go this route, I would go with a 5-channel amp to mount under the dash - I fit an Alpine MRX-V70 5-channel under mine and still have full tilt on the steering wheel. I would also look into the Kicker CompVT 10" subs; I would think just 1 10" would sound better than having 2 of them crammed into the same airspace.

If you want to keep it simple and don't mind giving up a bit of space, I would go with a good 4-channel amp for under the dash, and the sound ordinance 8" under your seat. This will sound good, but the 8" may have some issues going really low or getting very loud.
Yeah I considered the fact that 2 subs in the seat enclosure would need more airspace. I figure if I do go that route, and I most likely will down the road, I'll give it just a little over the minimum volume to minimize the amount of foam I would have to cut out.

If I got the same 5 channel amp that you have, with the intention of doing the seat design once I had gathered the materials, do I have to use all 5 channels? I assume that each channel goes to a seperate speaker, but if I got the sound ordinance to hold me over until I could do the seat box, would that cause a problem? And have you done the seat method?
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:54 PM   #5
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You can get the 5-channel amp and only use 4 channels while you are using the sound ordinance, then when you go with an under seat enclosure, you can just connect the sub into the amp. I haven't made the enclosure yet, I need to sell my current sub before the wife will let me dump more money into my audio system...
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:18 PM   #6
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You can get the 5-channel amp and only use 4 channels while you are using the sound ordinance, then when you go with an under seat enclosure, you can just connect the sub into the amp. I haven't made the enclosure yet, I need to sell my current sub before the wife will let me dump more money into my audio system...
What's the deal with everything I've read about having to have 2 amps to run a sub and speakers, and bridging an amp, etc
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:40 AM   #7
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Many car audio amps are either 2 or 4 channel. If you're using them then you generally go with a 4 channel amp to run your main speakers and a separate one for subwoofer.

Bridging means that you're using 2 channels in opposition to effectively double the output voltage into one channel. One channel will handle the positive half of a waveform and the other will do the negative. You have to watch impedances carefully when doing it because it increases the current draw drastically. Most amps that are rated for 2 ohm loads for each channel will be rated for 4 ohms bridged.

The advantage of running separate amps for mains and subs is that you have separate power supplies. If you're really thumping on a 5 channel amp then the power to the sub may be pushing the limits of the single power supply and robbing from the other 4 speakers causing distortion. With the 2 amp setup it won't be a problem as long as your electrical system can handle the load. Note that the issues are resolved with the use of common sense and working within the limits of your equipment but sometimes common sense goes out the window when you're tooling down the road with the top down blasting "Born to Wild".

One more thing on your power rating. The listing says that output is into 4 ohms at 1kHz and 16V power supply. Your Jeep's electrical system is most likely not putting out 16V so you won't be getting that kind of power out of the head unit. How much you get at 13.8V would have to be measured as it's not just a linear scale (not really worth the trouble unless you're going to compete). Just be aware that you are not really going to get 52wpc in real life. The 1kHz measurement is also a bit misleading but the explanation is a lot more technical. If you want to get into it, we can certainly do that.

Personally I don't think I'll be pushing things enough to need an amp for my mains so I'll run a simple 2ch for my microsubs and see how it shakes out. If I were stepping up I'd probably go with the 5 channel like eboven.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:49 AM   #8
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The advantage of running separate amps for mains and subs is that you have separate power supplies. If you're really thumping on a 5 channel amp then the power to the sub may be pushing the limits of the single power supply and robbing from the other 4 speakers causing distortion. With the 2 amp setup it won't be a problem as long as your electrical system can handle the load. Note that the issues are resolved with the use of common sense and working within the limits of your equipment but sometimes common sense goes out the window when you're tooling down the road with the top down blasting "Born to Wild".
This isn't quite true anymore. Amplifiers have come a long way in the last few years in regards to efficiency; the Alpine MRX-V70 is an all Class D design, making it far more efficient than similar amps of even two years ago. Most 2-4 channel amps are Class A+B circuitry, which just isn't as efficient at converting DC power into an AC music signal. Mono channel sub amps have been using Class D circuitry for the last few years, but only recently has it expanded into the 4- and 5-channel world.

Class D 5-channel amps would be a much better choice in regards to the demand on your Jeep's electrical system; hell, my MRX only pulls up to 60 amps, and has a 60wrms x4 + 250wrms x1 rating... most A+B 4-channel amps without the 5th sub channel would pull more like 70 amps.

Do some research, amp technology has come a long way in the last few years!
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:01 AM   #9
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Sure, IMO class D is the way to go in a car. Class A/B is a power drain. I was just speaking in general terms. If you can get a separate power supply for the sub channel, which will be working harder, then you will have less interchannel distortion. In a car, and especially a Jeep, I don't think it would ever really be an issue. I wanted to give a reason for going that route over a single amp.

Like I said, I'd go with the 5 channel class D myself.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:00 PM   #10
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If I get the 6.5 polk components for the rollbar, and the 5.25 for the dash, with the sound ordinance 8" powered sub, will it sound alright without an amp? Because the amp I'm lookin at is another $300 on top of the speakers, but if it'll sound ok, I'll wait. Or should I get the speakers for, let's say the dash first, plus the sub and amp, and then get the rollbar speakers later? Decisions, decisions.
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:21 PM   #11
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Still haven't done anything in the way of speakers. $ has been tighter than I thought it was going to be when I started this thread. But my options haven't changed, still liking the 6.5" polk coaxials in the sound pods, 5.25" polk components in the dash with Nalins brackets, and SO powered sub under rear bench. I'm wishing when we had got the lockbox, we had opted for the one that could accomodate an 8" sub, because although without it has more space, I don't keep anything in it I couldn't relocate to the molly gear seat covers. Oh well. Way too late. :bangbead:
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:55 AM   #12
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My solution: purchased jeep with basic kenwood head unit. Added vdp soundbar ( 200 bucks) with six speakers ( had to do minor rewiring at the harness on the roll bar. They give you diagram. Then added lanzar 8" subwoofer (100 bucks)with built in amp under back seat. I installed it in 30 minutes. Im gonna do kickers in front dash soon but as of now the system kicks butt. Should have bought the 10" one lanzar. So for about 350 you can get thumpin this weekend.



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