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Old 03-26-2014, 12:14 AM   #151
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Looks like I missed another great run.

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Old 03-26-2014, 10:11 AM   #152
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Thank you, let's slap some 37's on your rig and we'll be twins!

Get your nuts all checked out and snugged up!?
37's and a Hemi would be awesome!

I ended up ordering a Grade 8 Hardware Nut Bolt & Washer kit from Northridge, so I'm going to switch them out.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:06 AM   #153
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37's and a Hemi would be awesome!

I ended up ordering a Grade 8 Hardware Nut Bolt & Washer kit from Northridge, so I'm going to switch them out.
Just so you know as long as you're up on your maintenance and keeping things torqued this isn't necessarily needed. I made the switch to help keep my bolts sizes standardized and not need too many different wrenches, I have a touch of OCD...haha. Also Lowes actually carries a decent variety of Grade-8 hardware with stover lock nuts so in a pinch you can prob find then there, I know I bought a lot from them.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:18 AM   #154
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Is there a certain year that the JK had the problem with stock hardware? All of my stock hardware are 10.9 which is the metric equivalent of grade 8. I'd be concerned about using the standard grade 8 because the diameter is going to be slightly smaller than the metric. If not torqued properly it could lead to some more death wobble because if that bolt has any play it could widen the holes on the TB mounts or wear out the TB bushings.

*Edit ... nevermind. Just found out that the stock bolt is the one that is undersized. So the grade 8 "should" fit more snugly. Proper torque is still a must. Maybe that is why I never noticed an issue, I usually check the torque on my bolts before/after I hit the trails.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:37 AM   #155
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Is there a certain year that the JK had the problem with stock hardware? All of my stock hardware are 10.9 which is the metric equivalent of grade 8. I'd be concerned about using the standard grade 8 because the diameter is going to be slightly smaller than the metric. If not torqued properly it could lead to some more death wobble because if that bolt has any play it could widen the holes on the TB mounts or wear out the TB bushings.

*Edit ... nevermind. Just found out that the stock bolt is the one that is undersized. So the grade 8 "should" fit more snugly. Proper torque is still a must. Maybe that is why I never noticed an issue, I usually check the torque on my bolts before/after I hit the trails.
From what I understand is that once you get the DW it takes a serious toll on all of your front end components. So the 9/16ths should actually fit snug inside the TB holes/mounts.

If read some people try and tighten up the factory hardware after a DW experience and since it clapped out the holes the DW still comes back, hence the 9/16th upgrade pkg northridge sells.

When I go back to work tomorrow I'm gonna stock up on some random grade 8 hardware and throw it in the jeep for just in case.

All Luee needed was a damn nut! But after looking around his and our vehicles we couldn't find anything we could remove to replace that nut.

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Just so you know as long as you're up on your maintenance and keeping things torqued this isn't necessarily needed. I made the switch to help keep my bolts sizes standardized and not need too many different wrenches, I have a touch of OCD...haha. Also Lowes actually carries a decent variety of Grade-8 hardware with stover lock nuts so in a pinch you can prob find then there, I know I bought a lot from them.
I wish I could do that with mine! Between the hemi swap, and all the aftermarket crap on this beast I've definetly got a wide variety of std/metric hardware sizes lol
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:42 AM   #156
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Good Evening All!
I want to thank everyone for letting my son and join the FUN trip through John Bull - we had a great time. Ryan says that he is working through the 487 photos and videos that he has taken and we'll start posting as soon as possible. Best to All - Be Safe! ...Karl (Karlitos)
Heyyy!! There he is! Welcome to WF

487 pics... Damn, can't want to see what you got.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:43 AM   #157
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Ok I'm doing it.
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Is there a certain year that the JK had the problem with stock hardware? All of my stock hardware are 10.9 which is the metric equivalent of grade 8. I'd be concerned about using the standard grade 8 because the diameter is going to be slightly smaller than the metric. If not torqued properly it could lead to some more death wobble because if that bolt has any play it could widen the holes on the TB mounts or wear out the TB bushings.

*Edit ... nevermind. Just found out that the stock bolt is the one that is undersized. So the grade 8 "should" fit more snugly. Proper torque is still a must. Maybe that is why I never noticed an issue, I usually check the torque on my bolts before/after I hit the trails.
Most stock hardware is grade 5. So if you have 8 or better, you probably changed out the bolts when doing other mods.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:51 AM   #158
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From what I understand is that once you get the DW it takes a serious toll on all of your front end components. So the 9/16ths should actually fit snug inside the TB holes/mounts.

If read some people try and tighten up the factory hardware after a DW experience and since it clapped out the holes the DW still comes back, hence the 9/16th upgrade pkg northridge sells.
I'd imagine that is because tightening the bolts is just a band aid at that point. You'd have to replace the TB bushings and whatever else the DW destroyed, like ball joints. I've got a few 9/16 bolts laying around, maybe I'll drop my TB this weekend and see if there is much difference. I didn't realize the metrics were too small.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:55 AM   #159
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Most stock hardware is grade 5. So if you have 8 or better, you probably changed out the bolts when doing other mods.
Chrysler uses metric 10.9 (grade 8) all the way around.

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Old 03-26-2014, 12:30 PM   #160
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Chrysler uses metric 10.9 (grade 8) all the way around.

Pretty sure all mine are 10.9 as well.

You have Grade 5 on suspension parts SuicideKing??
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:37 PM   #161
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**I saw this on another forum.

"Most people DON'T know is that the bolt is a 14mm but the hole for the track bar and bushing is 9/16. Thus we have a small clearance issue.

The problem with the stock bolts is that the bolts are completely threaded to the head vs using shoulder bolts to contact the area of the bushing only.
Notice the threads were "eating" in to the metal sleeve in the bushing. ...the importance I'm trying to show here is that it is a very good idea to change out the bolts on the control arms and track bars to shoulder bolts to prevent damage and to also avoid death wobble."
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:49 PM   #162
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**I saw this on another forum.

"Most people DON'T know is that the bolt is a 14mm but the hole for the track bar and bushing is 9/16. Thus we have a small clearance issue.

The problem with the stock bolts is that the bolts are completely threaded to the head vs using shoulder bolts to contact the area of the bushing only.
Notice the threads were "eating" in to the metal sleeve in the bushing. ...the importance I'm trying to show here is that it is a very good idea to change out the bolts on the control arms and track bars to shoulder bolts to prevent damage and to also avoid death wobble."
See this thread: The Importance of changing out stock bolts!!
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:51 PM   #163
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I just had my TB off a couple months ago when I was relocating my steering damper ... I didn't notice any damage like that and it seemed to fit snug ... but now this makes me want to check again. I've got a couple 9/16 partial thread bolts so I'm gonna see the difference. I'll make the decision myself if the bolts need to be changed.
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Old 03-26-2014, 02:06 PM   #164
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I just went out and looked at the track bar I removed a couple months ago that had been on for about 10k mi and had NOWHERE near that kinda damage this guys showing. Yeah you could see lines from the threads but hardly any notching, grinding, cutting going on.

Went I went to remove that bolt is was effin TIGHT! Like 1/2 breaker with a cheater and my 240lb fat ass crankin on it tight.

Jeep + big lift + big tires + offroad abuse = lots of maintenance.

It ain't your mommas Kia!
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Old 03-26-2014, 02:53 PM   #165
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I just went out and looked at the track bar I removed a couple months ago that had been on for about 10k mi and had NOWHERE near that kinda damage this guys showing. Yeah you could see lines from the threads but hardly any notching, grinding, cutting going on. Went I went to remove that bolt is was effin TIGHT! Like 1/2 breaker with a cheater and my 240lb fat ass crankin on it tight. Jeep + big lift + big tires + offroad abuse = lots of maintenance. It ain't your mommas Kia!
May I suggest an impact gun. And for off road use, a Milwaukee 18volt 450 ft lbs impact gun.
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Old 03-26-2014, 03:25 PM   #166
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The stock hardware is 10.9, as said above, about the equivalent to grade 8. When we install any suspension, we use a combination of F911 9/16, 12.9 for all the metrics that need to stay metric, HD washers, and stover nuts. We always stock these, so if guys doing their own work needs good hardware the correct lengths for jeeps, come see us.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:42 PM   #167
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The stock hardware is 10.9, as said above, about the equivalent to grade 8. When we install any suspension, we use a combination of F911 9/16, 12.9 for all the metrics that need to stay metric, HD washers, and stover nuts. We always stock these, so if guys doing their own work needs good hardware the correct lengths for jeeps, come see us.
NO! Lol

I've been trying to avoid your shop for the reason only that my wallet won't like it!


Karl & Sinister where's the pics?!?!
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:57 AM   #168
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John Bull Pic's from Mar. 23, 2014

Good Evening Everyone!
Here come the pic's - it will probably take a couple days to get all posted - we have some great photos!

DISREGARD!!! The pic's are way too large - we have to resize them and upload again - Gosh Golly Darn!!

Karlitos
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:31 AM   #169
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Good Evening Everyone! Here come the pic's - it will probably take a couple days to get all posted - we have some great photos! DISREGARD!!! The pic's are way too large - we have to resize them and upload again - Gosh Golly Darn!! Karlitos

Put them on picasa or photobucket and put the link on here
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:50 AM   #170
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I was talkin to your son and he said he was gonna put them on his flickr account so all he would have to do is post a link. Not sure if that's where they are tho.
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:01 AM   #171
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The stock hardware is 10.9, as said above, about the equivalent to grade 8. When we install any suspension, we use a combination of F911 9/16, 12.9 for all the metrics that need to stay metric, HD washers, and stover nuts. We always stock these, so if guys doing their own work needs good hardware the correct lengths for jeeps, come see us.

Stan has replaced all hardware during my build, there is a feeling of confidence when quality work is done to your JK

Thx JPI

sj
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:05 PM   #172
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The stock hardware is 10.9, as said above, about the equivalent to grade 8. When we install any suspension, we use a combination of F911 9/16, 12.9 for all the metrics that need to stay metric, HD washers, and stover nuts. We always stock these, so if guys doing their own work needs good hardware the correct lengths for jeeps, come see us.
Stan I'm curious as to the use of 12.9 ... doesn't the higher tensile strength make the bolt more brittle meaning that it is more likely to fatigue and fracture? There is a lot of math involved that makes my head hurt, but that is my general understanding.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:42 PM   #173
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Check the underside of your rear bumper and gas tank skid. I guarantee you that tank skid has some new love marks.
Those are battle scars! There not one rock out there that loves a Jeep.
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:34 PM   #174
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[QUOTE="JoeBot13;9389122"] Stan I'm curious as to the use of 12.9 ... doesn't the higher tensile strength make the bolt more brittle meaning that it is more likely to fatigue and fracture?
There is a lot of math involved that makes my head hurt, but that is my general understanding.[/ For a given load, any steel bolt (grade 8 and grade 5 or grade anything) will stretch the same amount, up to its yield strength (also known as its elastic limit). Remove the load, and it "unstretches" back to its original length, i.e. there will be no permanent stretch (like a spring). For a grade 8 bolt, this load (and corresponding stretch) is greater than a lower grade. Above the yield strength, the stretch increases dramatically with very small increases in load, until the ultimate load is reached. Again, the ultimate load is higher for a grade 8 bolt than it is for a grade 5. Furthermore, if you stretch a bolt beyond its yield limit, it will not return to its original length (like a spring you've stretched out of shape). Softer steels will stretch more than harder ones before they break, but the actual load at the break point will still be much lower for the soft steel. I used tension examples, but shear behaves in much the same way. Then there's fatigue strength. Bend a piece of metal back and forth a bunch of times; it may not break right at first, but it will break eventually. For any given metal, there is a fatigue limit, which is lower than the ultimate load. Below the fatigue limit, bend it as many times as you want and it won't break; above that, it will eventually break. Again, in general, the higher the ultimate strength, the higher the fatigue limit. Finally there's impact loading. This is tested by notching a steel bar and hitting it with a hammer (very precisely, of course). This is the one case where a softer steel might do better, as harder materials tend to be more brittle. However, for most of our applications it's not that important (unless you're running a snowplow or trying to snatch a stuck Jeep out with a chain instead of an elastic nylon strap), as the suspension tends to damp out and spread loads below the sharp spike necessary for impact failure. Also, even grade 8 bolts aren't all that brittle; after they're heat treated to get the ultimate strength up they're tempered to bring back the impact strength. Impact strength might be an issue if something's loose, so that it shifts and bangs around before it hits whatever is stopping it (i.e. the loose bolt). Conclusion: grade 8 bolts are stronger in virtually any application on a Jeep. Whether you need that strength, and want to pay extra for it, is another issue (though I bought some 5/16 grade 8's yesterday for $0.60 each; grade 5's were only ten cents cheaper). There may also be situations where you may want the bolt to fail before the expensive part it's holding breaks, but that's another issue. Last September, we had just installed Currie control arms and other suspension components on a 06 LJ, using F911 hardware. Three days later, when this jeep was at a dealer for warranty on the cat conv, a ford mechanic pulled out in front of the LJ, the LJ totaled the van, and the LJ sustained a bent front D44 axle housing, body damage, and other misc damage. The Currie control arms were straight, the hardware was not broken, but ripped the LCA mounts out of the axle. I would think if this hardware was so brittle, the LCA hardware would have failed. I personally believe in top quality hardware for suspension, F911 and 12.9, and you won't find anything less than grade 8 in my new hardware in the shop. All the years in drag racing taught me ARP hardware was well worth the $$.
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Old 03-27-2014, 09:47 PM   #175
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Yeah a set of ARP head studs for my duramax cost me $600.
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:52 PM   #176
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Yeah a set of ARP head studs for my duramax cost me $600.
Money can't buy a better fastener!
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:19 PM   #177
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Thanks, Stan! That was explained very well, I've always understood it as the higher the tensile strength the lower its relative fatigue strength.

I guess what my ultimate question is, if grade 8 is preferable and 10.9 is roughly the equivalent to grade 8, why would I need to switch the 10.9 bolts for 12.9? I get why it may be ideal to switch the trackbar and control arms due to the full threaded body and the slightly smaller diameter of the stock bolts, but if where the metric bolts work as they should why switch if they are already good enough?
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:49 PM   #178
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Thanks, Stan! That was explained very well, I've always understood it as the higher the tensile strength the lower its relative fatigue strength. I guess what my ultimate question is, if grade 8 is preferable and 10.9 is roughly the equivalent to grade 8, why would I need to switch the 10.9 bolts for 12.9? I get why it may be ideal to switch the trackbar and control arms due to the full threaded body and the slightly smaller diameter of the stock bolts, but if where the metric bolts work as they should why switch if they are already good enough?
The 12.9 hardware has a shoulder where the factory bolts don't.
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Old 03-28-2014, 01:41 AM   #179
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ok so here's the first video which is from the front leader point of view. Working on the other videos too but i'm still learning how to edit so its taking me some time.


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Old 03-28-2014, 02:21 AM   #180
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The 12.9 hardware has a shoulder where the factory bolts don't.
Gotcha

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ok so here's the first video which is from the front leader point of view. Working on the other videos too but i'm still learning how to edit so its taking me some time.


Sweet video Geo ... really wish I was able to make it out for that

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