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Old 05-01-2013, 12:28 PM   #61
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Even the truest of facts r in some ways found to be driven by opinions , personal preferences and experiences ....and as a human race there is just no why around that.....
I'm not a machinist nor do I claim to be....but we have a less then 2 year old multi million dollar mega government machine shop here on base capable of make anything we need full of highly educated people that I'm definitely going to pick they're brains on this subject ....

but look if aluminum was the end all be all weather it be skid plates or for armor used to save life's everybody we be making it.....what I can't understand is why the military takes an all aluminum vehicle like the AAV-P7 and wraps it with steel armor or take the HMMWV an aluminum bodied tactical vehicle and grossly over loads them with massive steel armor ....O how about the MTVR troop carrier ....they use 2" thick steel plate and then lay another 1" thick plate on top of that.....must be some reason they over look the weight involved by using steel over aluminum for armor

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Old 05-01-2013, 12:55 PM   #62
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We don't have to deal with survivability like a war machine does. My H34 chopper in Nam was made from mostly magnesium. It would go up like a torch if it got hit right with a tracer. Their answer was self sealing fuel bladders. The Hummers have to with stand shaped charge blasts and IED blasts that were not expected when they were designed. I'm not privy to inside info but I can talk to the guys who come back and they all tell me it was a scramble to get vehicles designed for protection from small arms fire, to be able to handle RPG's. Those same HumVees now weigh a heck of a lot more than their designed weight. And because of it they are breaking down more in stress areas like suspension and driveline. But the guys are surviving and that is what it is all about. Like the cages on the Strykers. They had to go to something to set off the charge before it got to the optimum detonation point to disburse the blast force. This got way off base about armor plate. I am trying to steer it back to rock protection at slow speed vs weight savings.

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Old 05-01-2013, 01:02 PM   #63
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That's wasn't Blaine being heated...

I think he was just clearing up assertions made about aluminum in general..
I don't think either one us r heated....I'm not and I feel this is good stuff...
And as always in good fun...
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:15 PM   #64
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Well for now I am gonna think that light is right for me. I am going to work on getting my rigs weight down. Which means a trip to the weight station for a weigh in. Then I can remove things and weigh them as it comes off.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:42 PM   #65
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I don't think either one us r heated....I'm not and I feel this is good stuff...
And as always in good fun...

I think this was very infomative and stayed on point.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:59 PM   #66
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I think this was very infomative and stayed on point.
Jeep and speed shouldn't even be in the same sentence ... lol
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:05 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by WOKNROX View Post
Even the truest of facts r in some ways found to be driven by opinions , personal preferences and experiences ....and as a human race there is just no why around that.....
I'm not a machinist nor do I claim to be....but we have a less then 2 year old multi million dollar mega government machine shop here on base capable of make anything we need full of highly educated people that I'm definitely going to pick they're brains on this subject ....
No, the truest of facts are just that, facts. 2+2=4 and unless you change some portion of that, it is just a fact devoid of any opinion. Here is how opinion works. It is my opinion that in general, anyone too lazy to type out the word are and uses r in place to save two key strokes is not generally worth my time. In this case I have altered my strongly felt opinion on this matter and will for a short period of time indulge this affront to my sensibilities. Has nary a thing to do with facts and you in fact may not be lazy at all are are simply trying to be efficient.


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but look if aluminum was the end all be all weather it be skid plates or for armor used to save life's everybody we be making it.....what I can't understand is why the military takes an all aluminum vehicle like the AAV-P7 and wraps it with steel armor or take the HMMWV an aluminum bodied tactical vehicle and grossly over loads them with massive steel armor ....O how about the MTVR troop carrier ....they use 2" thick steel plate and then lay another 1" thick plate on top of that.....must be some reason they over look the weight involved by using steel over aluminum for armor
I wouldn't waste my time trying to figure out why the military does what they do. We all know they can waste more money doing less in more areas than just about any other entity in existence.

So, to get back on track, the aluminum debate is very simple and I'll give you a correllation to keep it simple.

There once was an axle company that sold nary a single non imported axle shaft. What their business model centered around was knowing that the vast majority of customers will never break a stock axle much less anything stronger. So, they offered a lifetime no questions asked guarantee, send in a pic and we will ship you another one.

Pay close attention to the underlined part. When it comes to the point in your evolution as a wheeler that you can tell the difference in how your rig performs on difficult terrain, you won't be asking the difference in weight, you will be looking for something to help you make it all work.

The vast majority of built rigs will never get to the point where it matters because they are so overbuilt for what they do, they could add another 500 lbs and still get over the trail.

Just like most will never stress stock axle shafts.

Go spend a weekend up in Big Bear, notice all the coolers, jacks, water jugs and crap hanging off the swing out tire carrier. Then go spend a day cruising around the lake bed in JV looking at the same genre of Jeeps.

It will become glaringly evident that one group cares about performance and the other does not.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:05 PM   #68
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This is what I am talking about. This video was my first time in the sand. I found out that I liked it. What I didn't like was my wonderful jeep that for the most part just handled everything I did with it, suddenly did some very bad things. My spare tire carrier became a rattle trap and the rear end was like a pogo stick. Now I do have the Bilstein 5100's on it and the are pretty new. I was just asking them to control more inertia than they were capable of. They work great on a trail but if I want to go fast they just don't do the job. I end up doing what I did there. The guys I jeep with sometimes drive pretty fast. They have the Fox Res shocks on theirs. If I had less mass hanging off the back it would not have been so out of control with my existing shocks.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:36 PM   #69
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This is what I am talking about. This video was my first time in the sand. I found out that I liked it. What I didn't like was my wonderful jeep that for the most part just handled everything I did with it, suddenly did some very bad things. My spare tire carrier became a rattle trap and the rear end was like a pogo stick. Now I do have the Bilstein 5100's on it and the are pretty new. I was just asking them to control more inertia than they were capable of. They work great on a trail but if I want to go fast they just don't do the job. I end up doing what I did there. The guys I jeep with sometimes drive pretty fast. They have the Fox Res shocks on theirs. If I had less mass hanging off the back it would not have been so out of control with my existing shocks.
Damn look at that thing hop. Thats crazy.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:51 PM   #70
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Heavy right foot and not enough shock to handle the weight.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:29 PM   #71
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Jeep and speed shouldn't even be in the same sentence ... lol

Possibly, but it sure doesn't hurt us, our products or our knowledge when we can take a full body TJ Unlimited and run it across 80 miles of desert at speeds higher than most us will ever run on the freeway and then over the Hammer trails faster than everyone else in our class and the one above us for the Overall Win.

Then we did it again the next {this year} year after moving up in class, took the overall win.

This is the first year, first tuning session.



It got much faster after that. It got even faster this year when the LS motor went into it and for the record, all done on shocks and coils, not coil overs.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:03 PM   #72
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Possibly, but it sure doesn't hurt us, our products or our knowledge when we can take a full body TJ Unlimited and run it across 80 miles of desert at speeds higher than most us will ever run on the freeway and then over the Hammer trails faster than everyone else in our class and the one above us for the Overall Win.

Then we did it again the next {this year} year after moving up in class, took the overall win.

This is the first year, first tuning session.



It got much faster after that. It got even faster this year when the LS motor went into it and for the record, all done on shocks and coils, not coil overs.
Great video !! I guess jeep and speed just aren't in my vocabulary but it looks like you guys have it all covered . Who is that song by in the video ?
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:40 PM   #73
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Man I can't even go half that speed. I would be rolled up in a ball on the side of the trail.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:03 PM   #74
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When it comes to the point in your evolution as a wheeler that you can tell the difference in how your rig performs on difficult terrain, you won't be asking the difference in weight, you will be looking for something to help you make it all work.

The vast majority of built rigs will never get to the point where it matters because they are so overbuilt for what they do, they could add another 500 lbs and still get over the trail.

Just like most will never stress stock axle shafts.

Go spend a weekend up in Big Bear, notice all the coolers, jacks, water jugs and crap hanging off the swing out tire carrier. Then go spend a day cruising around the lake bed in JV looking at the same genre of Jeeps.

It will become glaringly evident that one group cares about performance and the other does not.
I would view this as good news...Being that I am a big bear guy and not a JV guy, means I can stop being such a worrier about a few extra lbs and maybe get that keg trailer someone had for sale

I think the majority of Jeepers would prefer to be a bit over built than under built. I know I would much rather be over built than break on the trail....

Heck some of my best wheelin' friends have coolers, jacks, water jugs and other assorted crap hanging off their swing out tire carriers and they have a good old time
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:23 PM   #75
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Let's not get speed as the total performance end all for the average jeeper. I am looking at weight as something that will either increase or decrease climbing ability. Maybe I am way off here and it does not apply to jeeps. Performance cars usually respond best when lighter. And then maybe as Bill stated it is just not important to the weekend jeeper. Overbuilt is maybe better.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:26 PM   #76
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Can anyone school me on driveshaft and how to measure the length. I've been helping a buddy of mine 03 tj tomb raider with terraflex tummy tuck and motor lift. Snice doing the upgrade we find that the drive shaft is making a whinning sound. Thnx
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:35 PM   #77
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I would view this as good news...Being that I am a big bear guy and not a JV guy, means I can stop being such a worrier about a few extra lbs and maybe get that keg trailer someone had for sale

I think the majority of Jeepers would prefer to be a bit over built than under built. I know I would much rather be over built than break on the trail....

Heck some of my best wheelin' friends have coolers, jacks, water jugs and other assorted crap hanging off their swing out tire carriers and they have a good old time

There is a difference between overbuilt and "are you f-ing kidding me?"

That is especially true for your rig Bill. It is very JV capable as it sits right now if you can handle a few paint scrapes and even most of that is avoidable. I would have no qualms in the least hopping in your rig and running over Sledge, Jack, Outer Limits, Wrecking Ball, Aftershock, Spooners, Claw, Boulderdash, or Sunbonnet.

I had a conversation with a buddy last night who was contemplating removing his factory Rubi Lockers and going to ARB's "because he didn't want to break on the trail and had heard the Rubi lockers aren't bulletproof".

I explained to him that his dilemma is simple. If you don't want to break on the trail, stay home. That is the only way to guarantee you won't break on the trail.

When you consider that there is almost no trail in BB that can't be done in a near stock rig repeatedly, the vast majority I see up there or have seen up there are not in the "bit over built" category.

I know some of you can recognize a trail and some of you can tell how built a rig is that is on it. This is our friend Don. No stacking, no tugs, no lockers, no winching, no skill.

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Old 05-01-2013, 10:38 PM   #78
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Let's not get speed as the total performance end all for the average jeeper. I am looking at weight as something that will either increase or decrease climbing ability. Maybe I am way off here and it does not apply to jeeps. Performance cars usually respond best when lighter. And then maybe as Bill stated it is just not important to the weekend jeeper. Overbuilt is maybe better.
Speed is very likely the benchmark by which you should be comparing your aspirations to.

What you missed is that the rigs at speed in that race also have to do the trails at speed. They are also traction limited to keep the high speed stuff safe, so if they weigh them down, the lack of traction and agility will kill them on the trails and negate any performance in the fast stuff.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:56 PM   #79
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Well for now I am gonna think that light is right for me. I am going to work on getting my rigs weight down. Which means a trip to the weight station for a weigh in. Then I can remove things and weigh them as it comes off.
I bet once u move to a soft top u'll see major changes in the characteristics of your jeep.
I know when I remove the hard top from my jeep for the summer it has a much more stable feel to it with its lower center of gravity ...especially on side hills and through whoops ...
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:40 AM   #80
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I bet once u move to a soft top u'll see major changes in the characteristics of your jeep.
I know when I remove the hard top from my jeep for the summer it has a much more stable feel to it with its lower center of gravity ...especially on side hills and through whoops ...
Very accurate statement. When I went to a soft top and take the doors off I feel a huge change in handling. The center of gravity dropped and off camber stuff was less worrisome. That tippy feeling was gone.

Sometimes I'd rather be a bit heavy than be the guy slowing the group down because I'm broken.
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:57 AM   #81
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First question where is the radiator drain on a 2007 JKU. I had to take off thelower hose to drain it to replace the water pump.
Right lower side of radiator, pain to get to
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:19 AM   #82
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I bet once u move to a soft top u'll see major changes in the characteristics of your jeep.
I know when I remove the hard top from my jeep for the summer it has a much more stable feel to it with its lower center of gravity ...especially on side hills and through whoops ...
Yeah, I notice this right away when I take the hard top off. Much nicer handling.

I need to get a hoist!
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:00 AM   #83
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My feelings are this on this weight issue: I spent many years Drag Racing in the NHRA circuit from California to Indiana, Texas to Seattle. Spent countless dollars on parts and machine work, some was worth the money, some makes me wish I had the wasted dollars so I could pay cash for a nice house by the beach. Carbon fiber, aluminum, magnesium, and lots of titanium parts were part of my car and engine. The most scrutinized part on that car going through NHRA tech inspection was the chromoly chassis. No aluminum, magnesium, or any other alloy because this piece would save your life in the event of an unfortunate crash.
Now back to these Jeeps, I'm with Steve, steel under and sides and put aluminum wherever else you want. We wheel trails, not competition in KOH, not jeep speed or other off road events. The steel, although heavier, withstands rock beatings weekend after rocky weekend. As far as your jeep not performing as well being heavy, were not racing as earlier said, and my pig of a JK unlimited weighs at minimum 6200 lbs, or pounds so I don't get called lazy. Anyone who wheels with me or wants to can see for themselves it will go where I point it. Ready for the KOH? No. Ready for any weekend to have fun with you guys on this forum that actually get out and wheel on a regular basis? Yes! And it does carry an ice chest, tools, jack, and maybe a bumper dumper for those unplanned movements!
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:54 AM   #84
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Blaine just sent you a PM.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:46 AM   #85
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Guys, I'm gonna drop out of this thread. I find that I just no longer have it in me to handle confrontation and angst. I also don't have a budget like I did when I was racing. I decided after talking with my wife today that I am just gonna enjoy my jeep and wheel with my old slow buddies. Because of my health I will most likely never see the Rubicon or Fordyce and I had to cancel my Dusy trip. It takes too much out of me when people argue. So I am dropping out. This is my last post in it and I won't be looking back in. See you on the forum.
Bob
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:22 AM   #86
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Sometimes I'd rather be a bit heavy than be the guy slowing the group down because I'm broken.
I'm not quite sure how you correlate extra weight and putting more stress on components as making a rig less likely to break on the trail.

Can you expand on that a bit?
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:11 PM   #87
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I am out on this thread. I am not hear to explain myself. It's about exchanging ideas.
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:54 PM   #88
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How about another subject: Shocks!

I have Bilstein 5100's which I've been content with. What are the advantages for switching to a more expensive shock like remote reservoir or coil overs?

I touched on this briefly last time I was at JPI: I know 5100's are basically disposable whereas you can rebuild the more expensive ones.

Plus I know that if you're racing, the coilovers and other expensive shocks will be more advantageous.

How about for rock crawling though? What benefits would I get from switching to coil overs or remote reservoir?

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Old 05-02-2013, 10:35 PM   #89
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How about another subject: Shocks!

I have Bilstein 5100's which I've been content with. What are the advantages for switching to a more expensive shock like remote reservoir or coil overs?

I touched on this briefly last time I was at JPI: I know 5100's are basically disposable whereas you can rebuild the more expensive ones.

Plus I know that if you're racing, the coilovers and other expensive shocks will be more advantageous.

How about for rock crawling though? What benefits would I get from switching to coil overs or remote reservoir?

Good question. I would like to know myself!
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:42 AM   #90
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Good question. I would like to know myself!
Ok, the real answer is the rocks and your jeep dont care what kind of shocks you have, fox, king, bilstien, Monroe, Gabriel, sway a way, Kuster, no res, remote res, etc, etc. Getting to the rocks is another story, and more so if you drive fast on rough fire roads. You will feel the difference on rough roads, fire roads with drainage dips, whoops, etc. And the longer you drive on rough areas the more the remote res shocks will perform. And when you need more wheel travel, that's when the coil overs come into play. More important than shock brand or style is making what suspension you have work efficiently, setting up droop and bump correctly, make sure there is no binding, no interference between tie rod, drag link, track bars, axle, sway bars, etc. the best way to do this is to have it on a rack, pull the shocks and springs, then work that front axle every way possible. Start with that, and the rest will start making sense.
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