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Old 04-16-2013, 06:53 PM   #1
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Are roulette wheels rigged?

Played roulette twice this week lost pretty bad both times....no big deal in the long run and im not mad, just thinking here....

Now these are normal american wheels with a 0 and 00. One was four winds casino in hartford, mi, the other was isle of capri in kansas city, mo. real dealers. wheel is spun by hand. But there is a computer that uses lasers to monitor ball position. In kansas city, there are also lights under the table, that light up the winner and point out what bets would win.

Both times i played i started with a good winning streak and then lost. In hartford, i was strictly playing alone. In kc i played alone and with some guy betting several hundred dollars.

I am aware that wheels arent perfect and will tend to prefer certain numbers. But other than that, i wonder if this is rigged and how. both wheels were putting out suspicious patterns if you ask me.

I also wonder how much imperfection is in these wheels. What would happen if i observed the wheel constantly and made a spread sheet and figured out if certain numbers hit more often? Hmmmmmmmmm......

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Old 04-16-2013, 06:57 PM   #2
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IMO....... and I am sure people will tell me I am wrong, and that is fine...when you bet against the "house" they are betting every other but what you are covering...the odds are in their favor...maybe I don't know enough about gambing but I haven't lost much....

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Old 04-16-2013, 07:25 PM   #3
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A friend of mine works for the MS gaming commission. His job is to look for rigged games, and according to him, they never find any.. ever. Casinos don't need to rig games when you're playing 30-1 odds in their favor.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:14 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by michiganadam View Post
Played roulette twice this week lost pretty bad both times....no big deal in the long run and im not mad, just thinking here....

Now these are normal american wheels with a 0 and 00. One was four winds casino in hartford, mi, the other was isle of capri in kansas city, mo. real dealers. wheel is spun by hand. But there is a computer that uses lasers to monitor ball position. In kansas city, there are also lights under the table, that light up the winner and point out what bets would win.

Both times i played i started with a good winning streak and then lost. In hartford, i was strictly playing alone. In kc i played alone and with some guy betting several hundred dollars.

I am aware that wheels arent perfect and will tend to prefer certain numbers. But other than that, i wonder if this is rigged and how. both wheels were putting out suspicious patterns if you ask me.

I also wonder how much imperfection is in these wheels. What would happen if i observed the wheel constantly and made a spread sheet and figured out if certain numbers hit more often? Hmmmmmmmmm......
Ahhhhhhh......casinos don't look like they do 'cause they hand out money. Casino gambling is akin to throwing money away. That and the Lottery, are the two biggest sucker bets out there.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:14 PM   #5
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the number generator might even be more random than a physical ball. You would have to monitor thousands of spins to even start to charting patterns. They test random number algorithms millions of times to ensure randomness.

and really, you are playing roulette, it's like craps, but worse.
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Old 04-16-2013, 08:33 PM   #6
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I also wonder how much imperfection is in these wheels. What would happen if i observed the wheel constantly and made a spread sheet and figured out if certain numbers hit more often? Hmmmmmmmmm......
The bouncer would probably toss you out or worse, thinking you were somehow cheating, long before you had compiled enough data to make any conclusions.
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:30 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by jp2611 View Post
IMO....... and I am sure people will tell me I am wrong, and that is fine...when you bet against the "house" they are betting every other but what you are covering...the odds are in their favor...maybe I don't know enough about gambing but I haven't lost much....
yeah, i know. But thats why i play a game where my odds are 3:1. i havent lost much either. Infact last night it took me about 3 hours before i even lost anything. Was winning until the end.

But it seems alot like the dealers are very skilled at throwing the ball and can somewhat choose where it lands. But when the table is swamped with bets they cant do much about it.

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Ahhhhhhh......casinos don't look like they do 'cause they hand out money. Casino gambling is akin to throwing money away. That and the Lottery, are the two biggest sucker bets out there.
look, i do it to have fun. And i realize im probably going to lose money. Its more like trading money for entertainment. Im also "losing" money if i take my jeep offroading. Gas is expensive and anywhere good here to ride costs money to get in and is far away.....

Casinos are way more fun than the lottery anyway. I dont play that crap.

And most people are way bigger suckers than i am. I usually only gamble when im in vegas and even then i can lose less money than the value of the free booze. Is that really losing?

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the number generator might even be more random than a physical ball. You would have to monitor thousands of spins to even start to charting patterns. They test random number algorithms millions of times to ensure randomness.

and really, you are playing roulette, it's like craps, but worse.
Well, it is a physical ball. No random number generator.

Why is roulette worse than craps and how the heck do you play craps?

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The bouncer would probably toss you out or worse, thinking you were somehow cheating, long before you had compiled enough data to make any conclusions.
I believe i could get away with it because of the digital displays. Id only have to e within viewing range of a fairly big lcd display every 10 mins or so and could even be playing another game. Worth a try. Maybe google glass would help.


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A friend of mine works for the MS gaming commission. His job is to look for rigged games, and according to him, they never find any.. ever. Casinos don't need to rig games when you're playing 30-1 odds in their favor.
Thats very interesting. But in particular, slot machines seem very rigged.

I knew someone who used to be a carnie before. He said theyd only rig the games after the inspector showed up. For example, the thing where you pop balloons to win prizes.....theyd check and make sure there were actually balloons that won large prizes. There were but they never got replaced after being popped for the day...hahaha.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:31 AM   #8
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Casino's dont rig games, they dont have to. The house has the odds in their favor in every single game no matter what anyone tells you.

There is also a lottery commission that makes sure the games arent rigged. No casino would take the chance of being busted for rigging a game when they are going to win anyway. Sure they pay out big sometimes but they never go a day losing a single penny. Even smaller casino's are bringing in over a million a day.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:56 AM   #9
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Casino's dont rig games, they dont have to. The house has the odds in their favor in every single game no matter what anyone tells you.

There is also a lottery commission that makes sure the games arent rigged. No casino would take the chance of being busted for rigging a game when they are going to win anyway. Sure they pay out big sometimes but they never go a day losing a single penny. Even smaller casino's are bringing in over a million a day.
since you mention the lottery. And they didnt rig it but. The lottery in illinois paid out with a bunch of bad checks a few years ago. Did ya hear about that one? Bahahahaha.....

I dont believe the lottery profits are being used for what they claim they are.

Also certain scratchoff tickets come in rolls which are in a certain order. cashword in michigan, theres several losers, and then a 2 dollar winner (on a 2 dollar ticket, so a mere break even). Theres always a 5 dollar winner after that, and sometimes a bigger winner like 25 or 50 after that or even a loser. Always followed by a long sequence of losers.

Strange, huh?
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:37 AM   #10
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since you mention the lottery. And they didnt rig it but. The lottery in illinois paid out with a bunch of bad checks a few years ago. Did ya hear about that one? Bahahahaha.....

I dont believe the lottery profits are being used for what they claim they are.

Also certain scratchoff tickets come in rolls which are in a certain order. cashword in michigan, theres several losers, and then a 2 dollar winner (on a 2 dollar ticket, so a mere break even). Theres always a 5 dollar winner after that, and sometimes a bigger winner like 25 or 50 after that or even a loser. Always followed by a long sequence of losers.

Strange, huh?
Yea I suppose that is a bit odd. I actually meant to type gaming commission. I dont know about lottery. LOL. I guess it could be rigged. Once again one of those things that the favor is always going to the house or lottery (state) in this sense.

I guess they could rig it, just seems like such a big gamble (no pun intended) to take when you are clearly making more than enough money to begin with. Money makes people crazy. Its sad really, people think money is the answer. While it does help, it makes people nasty and greedy. 2 traits of people I can not tolerate.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:18 PM   #11
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Roulette wheels are biased. There have been several well known exploits of this flaw.

One family tracked every spin of every roulette wheel in a casino for weeks, somewhere overseas, and also made notes about the wheel itself (in case it was moved to another base/stand or table). This gave them an edge on what numbers were more likely to come up. They were profiled in an episode of "Breaking Vegas".

Here's a blurb from Wikipedia about wheel bias:

Biased wheels
Whereas betting systems are essentially an attempt to beat the fact that a geometric series with initial value of 0.95 (American roulette) or 0.97 (European roulette) will inevitably over time tend to zero, engineers instead attempt to overcome the house edge through predicting the mechanical performance of the wheel, most notably by Joseph Jagger at Monte Carlo in 1873. These schemes work by determining that the ball is more likely to fall at certain numbers, and if sufficiently good will raise the return of the game above 100%, defeating the betting system problem.

In the early 1990s, Gonzalo Garcia-Pelayo believed that casino roulette wheels were not perfectly random, and that by recording the results and analysing them with a computer, he could gain an edge on the house by predicting that certain numbers were more likely to occur next than the 1-in-36 odds offered by the house suggested. This he did at the Casino de Madrid in Madrid, Spain, winning 600,000 euros in a single day, and one million euros in total. Legal action against him by the casino was unsuccessful, it being ruled that the casino should fix its wheel.[9][10]

To prevent exploits like these, the casinos monitor the performance of their wheels, and rebalance and realign them regularly to try to keep the result of the spins as uniform as possible.

In 1982, several casinos in Britain began to lose large sums of money at their roulette tables to teams of gamblers from the USA. Upon investigation by the police, it was discovered they were using a legal system of biased wheel-section betting. As a result of this, the British roulette wheel manufacturer John Huxley manufactured a roulette wheel to counteract the problem.

The new wheel, designed by George Melas, was called "low profile" because the pockets had been drastically reduced in depth, and various other design modifications caused the ball to descend in a gradual approach to the pocket area. In 1986, when a professional gambling team headed by Billy Walters won $3.8 million using the system on an old wheel at the Golden Nugget in Atlantic City, every casino in the world took notice, and within one year had switched to the new low-profile wheel.

Edward O. Thorp (the developer of card counting and an early hedge-fund pioneer) and Claude Shannon (a mathematician and electronic engineer best known for his contributions to information theory) built arguably the first wearable computer to predict the landing of the ball in 1961. This system worked by timing the ball and wheel, and using the information obtained to calculate the most likely octant where the ball would fall. Ironically, this technique works best with an unbiased wheel though it could still be countered quite easily by simply closing the table for betting before beginning the spin.

Thomas Bass, in his book The Eudaemonic Pie (1985) (published as The Newtonian Casino in Britain), has claimed to be able to predict wheel performance in real time. The book describes the exploits of a group of University of California Santa Cruz students, who called themselves the Eudaemons, who in the late 1970s used computers in their shoes to win at roulette. This is an updated and improved version of Edward O Thorp's approach, where Newtonian Laws of Motion are applied to track the roulette ball's deceleration; hence the British title.

In 2004 it was reported that a group of two Serbs and one Hungarian in London had used a laser scanner hidden inside a mobile phone linked to a computer to predict the sector of the wheel where the ball was most likely to drop.[11] They were arrested, but released without charge as there was no proof they had technically interfered with casino equipment.
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:48 PM   #12
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From what I remember, roulette has the WORST odds for the player among all the games in a casino.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:21 PM   #13
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From what I remember, roulette has the WORST odds for the player among all the games in a casino.
but roulette has many ways of betting. If you bet on even/odd, you have a one in 4 chance of winning. That cant be the worst. But the big money is in the lower odd bets.....which have a 1:38 chance at the worst...

But patterns develop in the spins and sometimes you can predict where it will land....which is why i started this thread, cause sometimes its awfully strange .....
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:59 PM   #14
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Gambling is by design, meant to be advantageous to the house - no casino in it's right mind would have a game where the player had the advantage. Even if you do find a flaw to exploit (like card counting in Blackjack or predicting the outcome of a Roulette wheel), if a casino doesn't agree with your winning streak or if they think you are somehow using a "system" to beat the house, they will simply escort you from the casino.

So, in that sense, you can consider any casino game rigged to the house advantage.
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:17 PM   #15
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Gambling is by design, meant to be advantageous to the house - no casino in it's right mind would have a game where the player had the advantage. Even if you do find a flaw to exploit (like card counting in Blackjack or predicting the outcome of a Roulette wheel), if a casino doesn't agree with your winning streak or if they think you are somehow using a "system" to beat the house, they will simply escort you from the casino.

So, in that sense, you can consider any casino game rigged to the house advantage.
I hear ya. But i wouldnt use my system to try to win tens of thousands either
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:33 PM   #16
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but roulette has many ways of betting. If you bet on even/odd, you have a one in 4 chance of winning. That cant be the worst. But the big money is in the lower odd bets.....which have a 1:38 chance at the worst...

But patterns develop in the spins and sometimes you can predict where it will land....which is why i started this thread, cause sometimes its awfully strange .....
I agree with you the pattern is very strange. Roulette is my game of choice and I have done very well with the odds over the years. One of the strange patterns is how often a number will repeat. For that reason if I have a number hit I always double the bet for the next spin.

Just an FYI, the nickname for the Isle of Capri in KC is the Pile of Debris. I have only gambled there a few times but have never left there ahead.
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Old 04-25-2013, 01:09 AM   #17
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Roulette wheels are not fixed. They are setup mathematically for a house edge. It really is the worst game to play (playing inside #'s on American wheel). Don't care what strategy you have, you must keep something blank to win money. If you put 1 chip on every number, you'll lose 2 chips every time. Play black... 18/38 you will win, 20/38 you will lose.

No way to beat the game unless you are cheating. Guess and hope for the best.

The wheel's speed and ball spin is supposed to be changed every time it's spun. It goes around and if it hits one end of the canoe, it may go left or right, it's random, hits another end, may go the opposite direction. They're not rigged, just made with a large house advantage and it's tough to win.

Yes, some #'s hit more than others, it's random. If you go to 1000 spins it will even out. Just the 30 spins you have seen is not a big enough sample size. I've hit 4 #'s in a row a few times. I once spun a group of 15 #'s where they were all neighbors. If I had tried to do it, I wouldn't have been able to.

Yes, I'm a Roulette dealer. If you play roulette to make money, I suggest you go work some OT instead as very few make money. If they do, they give it back in a hurry. Human nature... money - I want more - bye bye. Just lost your winnings and buy-in. Off to the bank machine.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:30 AM   #18
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I like your post, st. Dont have much to say but i like that a dealer posted with such honesty.

I figured there was atleast a trick the dealers could use to hit certsin parts of the wheel...ha.

You guys look so bored when no ones playing by the way.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:04 AM   #19
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I can move the ball to the opposite side of the wheel, 80% of the time if I try. I can stay in the same section (if I don't try) and everything is the same (same spin/time between spins and wheel speed) about 50% of the time. There are too many factors for it to go wrong. If I try to keep it in the same area, it's hit or miss. Not trying or thinking about it is more accurate.

I've heard of a guy cheating with a physics program, with one dealer who didn't vary his spin... on his smartphone. This stuff just gets you banned from the casino or in jail. If you do a "past post" you will go to jail. Anyone who tries to cheat in a casino with facial recognition cameras is an idiot.

No way to beat the game. Whomever developed the game was a math genius as it cannot be beat. I've seen people write down every # and look for patterns and such, it doesn't work. Best way to play is to guess or find a consistent dealer and play neighbors (people still lose this way).

Wheels are leveled every day and are serviced regularly. An out of spec wheel would be noticeable... again, no need to cheat. Best house odds here. These wheels are very expensive and are 'true'. Only ones I've seen that need service are the ones that slow down too fast. Need new bearings or grease.

Just telling you guys the truth. Go play to have fun, not to make money. Gambling is very addictive.

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