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Old 10-20-2010, 01:52 PM   #31
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The bible has been the most scrutinized book in existence and has withstood the test of science, astrology, and archeology. Skeptics and critics have attacked it and "tried" to debunk it's claims and have failed time after time. With even that said Christianity is an experience and no unbeliever will understand our position fully without taking that percentage of faith in the belief that it's true. Just remember if I'm wrong, fine I'm not sinning against any supreme being and therefore have no eternal consequences
But if the atheist or agnostic is wrong...
Okay, first you didn't get the joke. You obviously haven't read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Second, if someone gets punished by the supreme being for not believing, that's not a just, loving, forgiving God. That's a spiteful, angry, egotistical God and I want no part of it.

If I end up getting judged by something at the end of my life, I want to be judged for what I did in my life, how I treated others and the kind of person I was. Not just whether or not I kept telling some deity how great he is all the time.

Look, I won't get into it any more, I hate religious discussions because they just don't go anywhere. Point is, my original post was a lighthearted reference to a lighthearted book about a guy lost in space. Nothing more.

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Old 10-20-2010, 02:02 PM   #32
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Proof of the existence of God would be the destruction of God, if you subscribe to Douglas Adams' babelfish-inspired theory. So if you're a religious type you'd better hope no one ever figures it out for sure!
LoL I love douglas adams. how about that time travel grammar problem !

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Old 10-20-2010, 02:14 PM   #33
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Okay, first you didn't get the joke. You obviously haven't read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Second, if someone gets punished by the supreme being for not believing, that's not a just, loving, forgiving God. That's a spiteful, angry, egotistical God and I want no part of it.

If I end up getting judged by something at the end of my life, I want to be judged for what I did in my life, how I treated others and the kind of person I was. Not just whether or not I kept telling some deity how great he is all the time.

Look, I won't get into it any more, I hate religious discussions because they just don't go anywhere. Point is, my original post was a lighthearted reference to a lighthearted book about a guy lost in space. Nothing more.
Fair enough. I didn't catch the reference and I apologize. I have some pretty good refutations to God's prefect deity and the need for judgment on his creation "man." but I will concede on the subject for the sake of a more lighthearted discussion.
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Old 10-20-2010, 02:14 PM   #34
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I HATE Douglas Adams books... I've broken my nose 13 times so far trying to miss the ground!
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Old 10-20-2010, 02:18 PM   #35
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I HATE Douglas Adams books... I've broken my nose 13 times so far trying to miss the ground!
LoL
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:09 PM   #36
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I have nothing to add except this picture. It's meant to be funny, nothing more, nothing less. Just thought I'd share it.

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Old 10-20-2010, 05:16 PM   #37
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:18 PM   #38
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:27 PM   #39
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If we admit that human life can be ruled by reason, then all possibility of life is destroyed.

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I believe in a higher power, but it hasn't told me it's name yet. So instead of worshipping in a man made cathedral once a week, I prefer to worship the one concrete creation of this higher power, the ground we walk on, and I do so everyday, not once a week. Indians had religion figured out. Too bad we killed most of them off with our mundane perceptions of divinity.
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:37 PM   #40
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Proof that everybody can agree on something

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Old 10-20-2010, 06:03 PM   #41
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Proof that everybody can agree on something
Having spent all summer in Clearwater, that's hilarious. Those people really are out there.
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:22 PM   #42
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I have nothing to add except this picture. It's meant to be funny, nothing more, nothing less. Just thought I'd share it.

Awesome . . . totally awesome!!!
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:26 PM   #43
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Having spent all summer in Clearwater, that's hilarious. Those people really are out there.
Ugh. Why couldn't they have HQ'd in a place that no one cares about? Maybe somewhere on the I10 corridor between Tallahassee and Jacksonville. Or better yet, get the F outta my state.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:28 PM   #44
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Ugh. Why couldn't they have HQ'd in a place that no one cares about? Maybe somewhere on the I10 corridor between Tallahassee and Jacksonville. Or better yet, get the F outta my state.
I know what you mean, I'm trying to move to the FL as we speak, where you from?
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:47 PM   #45
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My favorite George Carlin skit on the subject. It's not family friendly so if you want to watch it just youtube "george carlin - religion is BS" but spell out the BS part. If your eaisly offended obviously stay away from pretty much anything Carlin says!
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:52 PM   #46
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George Carlin is my hero. I like his take on organized religion, even if it doesn't necessarily mirror my own. I like his Joe Pesci reference.....
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:14 PM   #47
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He was very smart and like you said, even if you don't agree with his point of view he does make a good argument and it's funny to boot! This is true for most of his comedy, one of the best comedians ever. I can listen to his stuff over and over and it never gets old.
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Old 10-20-2010, 09:25 PM   #48
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The bible has been the most scrutinized book in existence and has withstood the test of science, astrology, and archeology. Skeptics and critics have attacked it and "tried" to debunk it's claims and have failed time after time. With even that said Christianity is an experience and no unbeliever will understand our position fully without taking that percentage of faith in the belief that it's true. Just remember if I'm wrong, fine I'm not sinning against any supreme being and therefore have no eternal consequences
But if the atheist or agnostic is wrong...
I actually enjoy a good debate. Especially on this topic. I came from a very religious family who is still very involved in thier church.

I find pretty much everything in the stories of the bible to be just that, stories. I cannot understand how someone can take "faith" as fact. They are not even related at all. Fact is based on physical proof of something. Faith is based on just taking someones word on it.

Also, you state that if you are wrong about being religious, you have no eternal consequences, but if the athiest/agnostic/etc is wrong they get the punishment of eternal hell fire.

So, are you stating that you are religious "just in case"? If we do go on to an afterlife and are judged for our actions, wouldn't that be known also? How would your supreme being feel about being worshipped "just in case"?

I am not flaming or looking to pick a fight, I would like to honestly hear your opinions. I have seen this topic on this forum before and we were able to keep things family friendly.

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Old 10-20-2010, 09:47 PM   #49
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I actually enjoy a good debate. Especially on this topic. I came from a very religious family who is still very involved in thier church.

I find pretty much everything in the stories of the bible to be just that, stories. I cannot understand how someone can take "faith" as fact. They are not even related at all. Fact is based on physical proof of something. Faith is based on just taking someones word on it.

Also, you state that if you are wrong about being religious, you have no eternal consequences, but if the athiest/agnostic/etc is wrong they get the punishment of eternal hell fire.

So, are you stating that you are religious "just in case"? If we do go on to an afterlife and are judged for our actions, wouldn't that be known also? How would your supreme being feel about being worshipped "just in case"?

I am not flaming or looking to pick a fight, I would like to honestly hear your opinions. I have seen this topic on this forum before and we were able to keep things family friendly.

Jeff
Let me answer your first statement/question of faith and facts. As I stated earlier, there is plenty of historical, archeological, and astronomical evidence that not only backs the Bible's references to places and events but validates Jesus's claims of a resurrection. With that we then take the step by weighing what we've learned and if we want to accept that is in fact true - (faith). Then so much more is revealed!
Secondly, let me answer your next question of, "Am I a Christian by convenience?" Although that wasn't what I meant by stating that, but saying the implications for each party being wrong and that the Atheists implications is a "bit" more concerning.
Let's get personal for a second and talk about my circumstances. I left a high paying job to serve in ministry and make not even a fraction of my previous salary. Although to me it was the perfect decision but to one that is 'Christian for convenience' that would not be the move in their best interest. So is the case for millions that serve God, since he calls us to serve outside of convenience and comfortableness.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:48 PM   #50
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Bah just when I thought I could avoid this thread it came up again. im not going to resort to being rude I just want to put my 2cents out there

I dont care what people belive in. believe in a giant bhudda dude in the sky I dont care. If it improves your life and gives you comfort to believe someones up there wathcing thats awesome. Thats what its supposed to be all about.

But what erks me is when people start telling me what to believe in.
Whats even worse is when those same people resort to using my fears (of going to hell) to persuade me to believe. No one should use fear as a means of control .
And whats the worst is when people kill other people because they didnt believe. No one is better than someone else because they believe in a certain thing. people forget that and start wars and countless lives are lost. every religious person is an atheist to all other religions besides their own.

I praise the man who goes to church to improve his life and spread joy to others, not to please god but to please himself and others. and I pity the man who goes out of fear. its that simple.
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Old 10-20-2010, 11:14 PM   #51
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Let me answer your first statement/question of faith and facts. As I stated earlier, there is plenty of historical, archeological, and astronomical evidence that not only backs the Bible's references to places and events but validates Jesus's claims of a resurrection. With that we then take the step by weighing what we've learned and if we want to accept that is in fact true - (faith). Then so much more is revealed!
Secondly, let me answer your next question of, "Am I a Christian by convenience?" Although that wasn't what I meant by stating that, but saying the implications for each party being wrong and that the Atheists implications is a "bit" more concerning.
Let's get personal for a second and talk about my circumstances. I left a high paying job to serve in ministry and make not even a fraction of my previous salary. Although to me it was the perfect decision but to one that is 'Christian for convenience' that would not be the move in their best interest. So is the case for millions that serve God, since he calls us to serve outside of convenience and comfortableness.

I appreciate your response to my questions. Can you please give some examples of evidence of religious stories, more directly, evidence of a ressurection taking place 3 days after a person has died due to an execution?

I accept your statement of not being Christian for convenience. My family feels the same way for the most part. Do you ever feel that maybe you are blessed by your culture? That you were born into a region of the world where Christianity is the dominate religion? Do you feel that people born into other cultures have the same chances for "Salvation" as one born into the Christian culture?

If you have any questions for me, please feel free to ask, I guranatee you I will not be offended. I have thick skin.

Jeff
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Old 10-21-2010, 03:18 PM   #52
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I appreciate your response to my questions. Can you please give some examples of evidence of religious stories, more directly, evidence of a ressurection taking place 3 days after a person has died due to an execution?

I accept your statement of not being Christian for convenience. My family feels the same way for the most part. Do you ever feel that maybe you are blessed by your culture? That you were born into a region of the world where Christianity is the dominate religion? Do you feel that people born into other cultures have the same chances for "Salvation" as one born into the Christian culture?

If you have any questions for me, please feel free to ask, I guranatee you I will not be offended. I have thick skin.

Jeff
This may help, another video addressing historical evidence for Jesus's resurrection.
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:33 PM   #53
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^^^Sorry, but that does not give any proof of a resurrection. The video states that a 2000 year old story about an empty tomb being discovered by three of his female followers. Not proof, but a statement apparently by people that were there... 2000 years ago. The video then goes on to compare Greek and Roman beliefs as being told over several generations of the event occuring. Isn't that exactly what teaching the Gosple is? Telling the stories from one generation to the next? This is exactly the way if you and I are on different sides or a room, I state that "I have a stomache ache", and by the time the word gets around to you and the way you hear it is that "I ate a sour grape".

As for "women" finding the empty tomb and being in a male dominated society, so that women were not likely to be mentioned as Mark and Matthew are, still is not proof. It is a really neat story.

The proof I am asking for is something tangable. Something physical. Just because someone said something, does not make it true.

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Old 10-21-2010, 07:41 PM   #54
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Sometimes, we get so educated, that we just seem to outsmart ourselves.....

Faith is an individual thing.
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:55 PM   #55
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:06 PM   #56
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^^^Sorry, but that does not give any proof of a resurrection. The video states that a 2000 year old story about an empty tomb being discovered by three of his female followers. Not proof, but a statement apparently by people that were there... 2000 years ago. The video then goes on to compare Greek and Roman beliefs as being told over several generations of the event occuring. Isn't that exactly what teaching the Gosple is? Telling the stories from one generation to the next? This is exactly the way if you and I are on different sides or a room, I state that "I have a stomache ache", and by the time the word gets around to you and the way you hear it is that "I ate a sour grape".

As for "women" finding the empty tomb and being in a male dominated society, so that women were not likely to be mentioned as Mark and Matthew are, still is not proof. It is a really neat story.

The proof I am asking for is something tangable. Something physical. Just because someone said something, does not make it true.

Jeff
That's a key tenet of religion. Faith. A hope for things which aren't seen but which you believe to be true. You aren't going to get a palpable manifestation. You either attribute the good that comes as blessings from god or as good luck. You make a conscious decision whether or not to exercise faith. It's an action, and not just a physical object like proof is.
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:28 PM   #57
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And that is the biggest thing I see wrong with the "Proof agrument" It is based soley on faith. Not fact.

Jeff
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:31 PM   #58
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^^^Sorry, but that does not give any proof of a resurrection. The video states that a 2000 year old story about an empty tomb being discovered by three of his female followers. Not proof, but a statement apparently by people that were there... 2000 years ago. The video then goes on to compare Greek and Roman beliefs as being told over several generations of the event occuring. Isn't that exactly what teaching the Gosple is? Telling the stories from one generation to the next? This is exactly the way if you and I are on different sides or a room, I state that "I have a stomache ache", and by the time the word gets around to you and the way you hear it is that "I ate a sour grape".

As for "women" finding the empty tomb and being in a male dominated society, so that women were not likely to be mentioned as Mark and Matthew are, still is not proof. It is a really neat story.

The proof I am asking for is something tangable. Something physical. Just because someone said something, does not make it true.

Jeff
Heading home now and will answer all of your questions/doubts when I get to my keyboard. I've typed all the others on my iPhone. It just takes too long.
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:43 PM   #59
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^^^Sorry, but that does not give any proof of a resurrection. The video states that a 2000 year old story about an empty tomb being discovered by three of his female followers. Not proof, but a statement apparently by people that were there... 2000 years ago. The video then goes on to compare Greek and Roman beliefs as being told over several generations of the event occuring. Isn't that exactly what teaching the Gosple is? Telling the stories from one generation to the next? This is exactly the way if you and I are on different sides or a room, I state that "I have a stomache ache", and by the time the word gets around to you and the way you hear it is that "I ate a sour grape".

As for "women" finding the empty tomb and being in a male dominated society, so that women were not likely to be mentioned as Mark and Matthew are, still is not proof. It is a really neat story.

The proof I am asking for is something tangable. Something physical. Just because someone said something, does not make it true.

Jeff
Your asking for what does not exist. If tangible evidence existed about the resurrection of Christ, other religions would have a hard time without the same caliber of evidence persuading followers to their religion above Christianity. If you take the time to watch the first video on here about how God can be immediately experienced, that may help you see how it is more about the individuals experience and relationship with him in their lives.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:19 PM   #60
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^^^Sorry, but that does not give any proof of a resurrection. The video states that a 2000 year old story about an empty tomb being discovered by three of his female followers. Not proof, but a statement apparently by people that were there... 2000 years ago. The video then goes on to compare Greek and Roman beliefs as being told over several generations of the event occuring. Isn't that exactly what teaching the Gosple is? Telling the stories from one generation to the next? This is exactly the way if you and I are on different sides or a room, I state that "I have a stomache ache", and by the time the word gets around to you and the way you hear it is that "I ate a sour grape".

As for "women" finding the empty tomb and being in a male dominated society, so that women were not likely to be mentioned as Mark and Matthew are, still is not proof. It is a really neat story.

The proof I am asking for is something tangable. Something physical. Just because someone said something, does not make it true.

Jeff
Okay, so much good stuff I don't know where to start.
Let me start with the eyewitness account for Jesus' and his resurrection. I think I can answer two questions in one here. The standard scholarly dating, even in very liberal circles, is Mark in the 70's (AD), Matthew and Luke in the 80's, John in the 90's. But that's still within the lifetimes of the various eyewitnesses of the life of Jesus, including hostile eyewitnesses who would have served as a corrective if false teachings about Jesus were going around.
Consequently, these late dates for the gospels really aren't all that late. In fact, we can make a comparison that's very instructive.
The two earliest biographies of Alexander the Great were written by Arrian and Plutarch more than four hundred years after Alexander's death in 323B.C., yet historians consider them to be generally trustworthy. Yes, legendary material about Alexander did develop over time, but it was only centuries after these two writers.
In other words, the first five hundred years kept Alexander's story pretty much intact; legendary material began to emerge over the next five hundred years. So whether the gospels were written sixty years or thirty years after the life of Jesus, the amount of time is negligible by comparison. It's almost a nonissue.
I'm sorry but to compare the transcribing of the gospels of the bible as that of a childish game of telephone is silly. The community would constantly be monitoring what was said and intervening to make corrections along the way. That would preserve the integrity of the message.

As for him stating the women finding the tomb empty is not the only witnesses to Jesus' resurrection. Hundreds were recorded as a witness to his appearance after crucifixion including many of those that were not his followers. Dr. Bloomberg was merely saying that to use these women as some of the witnesses doesn't seem fit for a group that would be trying to make something up.

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