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Old 10-22-2010, 03:47 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by ESP123 View Post
Your asking for what does not exist. If tangible evidence existed about the resurrection of Christ, other religions would have a hard time without the same caliber of evidence persuading followers to their religion above Christianity. If you take the time to watch the first video on here about how God can be immediately experienced, that may help you see how it is more about the individuals experience and relationship with him in their lives.
I agree completely about if tangible evidence were present, then other religions would have a heck of a time getting others to follow thier views. That is why I feel that there are so many differing belief systems in this world.

I have not watched the first video yet and will not watch till tomorrow as it is late and I am in need of rest. But, and this is biased from personal experience, if the video states a feeling of wonderment and unconditional love, then I have heard that before. I actually thought I felt it at one time when I was younger and looking for a path in life. What I discovered is that I was actually looking for acceptance from my peers and the local youth group was a great place to find it. After my "acceptance of Christ" into my heart, I did feel something. That feeling was fear, coupled with concearn for my family and friends. I did not want them to suffer an eternal fate of damnation if they thought wrong, believed wrong, or forgot to beg for forgivness of something they had done in life.

While typing this, my mind starts racing on different things I find don't hold water in logical terms. The forgiveness factor is one of the major issues I have. If someone is a murderer, pedophile, rapist or what every other waste of skin you can think of, and they accept Jesus into their life, then they are rewarded an eternity in paradise. Even though they destroyed untold lives with their actions while living as a sinner. But if someone is a generally good person, helps others when they can, but has not accepted Jesus, then they are doomed to hell fire for eternity. Not really fair if you ask me.

Another issue I have is how does one know the true religion to follow? Most people will follow the faith of the culture they are born into. So Muslims follow the Koran, Christians follow the Bible etc. How does one know that the holy book they follow is the correct one. All religions feel that their belief is the correct version and one should not sway from the path.

Jeff

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Old 10-22-2010, 04:02 AM   #62
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Okay, so much good stuff I don't know where to start.
Let me start with the eyewitness account for Jesus' and his resurrection. I think I can answer two questions in one here. The standard scholarly dating, even in very liberal circles, is Mark in the 70's (AD), Matthew and Luke in the 80's, John in the 90's. But that's still within the lifetimes of the various eyewitnesses of the life of Jesus, including hostile eyewitnesses who would have served as a corrective if false teachings about Jesus were going around.
Consequently, these late dates for the gospels really aren't all that late. In fact, we can make a comparison that's very instructive.
The two earliest biographies of Alexander the Great were written by Arrian and Plutarch more than four hundred years after Alexander's death in 323B.C., yet historians consider them to be generally trustworthy. Yes, legendary material about Alexander did develop over time, but it was only centuries after these two writers.
In other words, the first five hundred years kept Alexander's story pretty much intact; legendary material began to emerge over the next five hundred years. So whether the gospels were written sixty years or thirty years after the life of Jesus, the amount of time is negligible by comparison. It's almost a nonissue.
I'm sorry but to compare the transcribing of the gospels of the bible as that of a childish game of telephone is silly. The community would constantly be monitoring what was said and intervening to make corrections along the way. That would preserve the integrity of the message.

As for him stating the women finding the tomb empty is not the only witnesses to Jesus' resurrection. Hundreds were recorded as a witness to his appearance after crucifixion including many of those that were not his followers. Dr. Bloomberg was merely saying that to use these women as some of the witnesses doesn't seem fit for a group that would be trying to make something up.
You state that the community would be monitoring what was said and making corrections along the way. Fair enough. But how much monitoring can be made in a society when the spoken word is the most common form of communication. Most people were illiterate during the dates in question. So the written word would not be used as a form of record keeping. The spoken stories that are passed down from neigobor to neighbor, town to town, generation to generation and so on would be the stories that held the test of time.

You also talk about Roman and Greek cultures with Alexander the Great. Outstanding. So you feel that the Greek Mythology that was once thought as fact is just gibberish? You know that thunder is not caused by clouds bumping into each other and that there is not a Mt. Olympus with several gods living there. If a faith that was once thought of as fact by entire cultures is now commonly regarded to as superstition, can you be sure that your faith is reality?

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Old 10-22-2010, 08:40 AM   #63
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:02 PM   #64
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You state that the community would be monitoring what was said and making corrections along the way. Fair enough. But how much monitoring can be made in a society when the spoken word is the most common form of communication. Most people were illiterate during the dates in question. So the written word would not be used as a form of record keeping. The spoken stories that are passed down from neigobor to neighbor, town to town, generation to generation and so on would be the stories that held the test of time.

You also talk about Roman and Greek cultures with Alexander the Great. Outstanding. So you feel that the Greek Mythology that was once thought as fact is just gibberish? You know that thunder is not caused by clouds bumping into each other and that there is not a Mt. Olympus with several gods living there. If a faith that was once thought of as fact by entire cultures is now commonly regarded to as superstition, can you be sure that your faith is reality?

Jeff
Okay, sit back and strap on your seat belts. You wanted to challenge once again the "telephone game theory". Before I start let me first state that I proved that we had written account no more than 30 years after Jesus' resurrection. Thus meaning any legend or mythology although doesn't form for generations would still be corrected by the account of the gospels.

On to the refutation of, 'the spoken word making the account for Jesus false.'

We have to remember as you have already suggested, we're in a foreign land in a distant time and place and in a culture that has not yet invented computers or even the printing press, books-or actually, scrolls of papyrus -were relatively rare. Therefore education, learning, worship, teaching in religious communities- all this was done by word of mouth.
Rabbis became famous for having the entire Old Testament committed to memory. So it would have been well within the capability of Jesus' disciples to have committed much more to memory that what appears in all four gospels put together - and to have passed it along accurately.
This may seem like an absurd amount of memorization but this was an oral culture, in which there was great emphasis placed on memorization. And remember that eighty to ninety percent of Jesus' words were originally in poetic form. This doesn't mean stuff that rhymes, but it has a meter, balanced likes, parallelism, and so forth - and this would have created a great memory help.
The other thing that needs to be said is that the definition of memorization was more flexible back then. In studies of cultures with oral traditions, there was freedom to vary how much of the story was told on any given occasion - what was included, what was left out, what was paraphrased , what was explained, and so forth.

About Greek mythology:
I will put this short since this has been a silly argument from many with no true correlation between the two. The God of the old testament predates any Greek/Roman mythology. Also, no myth - scratch that - most books written a century or more ago can hold up to the test of time as that of the bible. The old testament accounts are proven more true with each passing archaeological dig/discovery. Things said to be untrue in the past are now being recanted by naysayers because of the discoveries made today.
More can be said for the New Testament and the fine tooth comb/ microscopic study it has been under for centuries yet still holds its ground.
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Old 10-22-2010, 05:55 PM   #65
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Just to clarify the dissuasion, from which of the over 21,000 denominations, sects and synods are we basing the Christian beliefs?

It would also help to know if the discussion is based on innarant or allegorical belief in biblical writing.

Also, what is considered the opposite of Christian?
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:47 PM   #66
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Just to clarify the dissuasion, from which of the over 21,000 denominations, sects and synods are we basing the Christian beliefs?

It would also help to know if the discussion is based on innarant or allegorical belief in biblical writing.

Also, what is considered the opposite of Christian?

Valid concerns Mcbear. My belief and basis rest solely on the bible. I am part of the Independent Christian Reformation movement.

The discussion I'm having here, and I am not trying to speak for any other posters here, I believe the bible is the inerrant word of God.

As far as the opposite of Christian? The short answer is non-Christian, "unbeliever."
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:37 PM   #67
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Thank you for responding. I appreciate you taking the time to give a thought out answer.

As for the spoken word to be taken into account as proper record keeping and memorization of the entire Old Testimate to memory, I still find it hard to believe verbal stories can be taken as fact, without something concrete to support it. Even my memory of things that have occured to me directly 30 short years ago can be a little different from what others involved in the same events. Does that make my memories true of false? Or maybe I remember different things that stood out for me. Which memory is actually the fact? This is how flexable memories can happen. If I were to think of my first kiss, to me it may have been magical and romantic and that is the way I believe it to be. But to her, maybe I had bad breath or I drooled on her cheek and her memory would have been a negative event. Like you said, "freedom to paraphrase, what was included or left out" could give completely differing stories depending on when it was told, and what is the memory of the person telling the story.

You are correct that the Bible has been scrutenized for centries and still is followed by millions of believers. So has the Qur'an. It dates to the same era as the Bible. Involves the same characters, [Borrowed from wikipedia: The Qur'an assumes familiarity with major narratives recounted in Jewish and Christian scriptures, summarizing some, dwelling at length on others, and, in some cases, presenting alternative accounts and interpretations of events].

So which interpretation is correct? Same stories told by different people, but which one is the true fact?

McBear, thank you for your participation. Your comment of the extreme number of differing dominations was one of the first things that made me question religion in general. Most religions feel that they are the correct way to follow and serve their god of choice and that others are wrong. Well if everybody else is wrong,then who is right?

Thanks again for reading and I am looking forward to your response.

Jeff
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:58 PM   #68
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Thank you for responding. I appreciate you taking the time to give a thought out answer.

As for the spoken word to be taken into account as proper record keeping and memorization of the entire Old Testimate to memory, I still find it hard to believe verbal stories can be taken as fact, without something concrete to support it. Even my memory of things that have occured to me directly 30 short years ago can be a little different from what others involved in the same events. Does that make my memories true of false? Or maybe I remember different things that stood out for me. Which memory is actually the fact? This is how flexable memories can happen. If I were to think of my first kiss, to me it may have been magical and romantic and that is the way I believe it to be. But to her, maybe I had bad breath or I drooled on her cheek and her memory would have been a negative event. Like you said, "freedom to paraphrase, what was included or left out" could give completely differing stories depending on when it was told, and what is the memory of the person telling the story.

You are correct that the Bible has been scrutenized for centries and still is followed by millions of believers. So has the Qur'an. It dates to the same era as the Bible. Involves the same characters, [Borrowed from wikipedia: The Qur'an assumes familiarity with major narratives recounted in Jewish and Christian scriptures, summarizing some, dwelling at length on others, and, in some cases, presenting alternative accounts and interpretations of events].

So which interpretation is correct? Same stories told by different people, but which one is the true fact?

McBear, thank you for your participation. Your comment of the extreme number of differing dominations was one of the first things that made me question religion in general. Most religions feel that they are the correct way to follow and serve their god of choice and that others are wrong. Well if everybody else is wrong,then who is right?

Thanks again for reading and I am looking forward to your response.

Jeff
If the fact that we accept other ancient documents as historical evidence and they use the same method as the Bible for transcribing and verbal reciting not sure what more in that area you would want.
If you want to develop a checks and balances of the first century community, you'd have to say that every third person, out loud in a very clear voice, would have to ask the first person, 'Do I still have it right?' and change it if he didn't.

Let's move on to the Qur'an and the Bible and how they differ greatly in truth and accuracy.

The Qur'an:
Starting with the Qur'an, it is reasonable to conclude that these findings indeed give us reason for pause concerning its reliability. Manuscript, as well as documentary and archaeological evidence indicates that much of what the Qur'an maintains does not coincide with the historical data at our disposal which comes from that period. From the material amassed from external sources in the7th-8th centuries, we now know:

1) that the Jews still retained a relationship with the Arabs until at least 640 A.D.;

2) that Jerusalem and not Mecca was more-than-likely the city which contained the original sanctuary for Islam, as Mecca was not only unknown as a viable city until the end of the seventh century, but it was not even on the international trade route; 3) that the Qibla (direction of prayer) was not fixed towards Mecca until the eighth century, but to an area much further north, possibly Jerusalem;

4) that the Dome of the Rock situated in Jerusalem was possibly the original sanctuary;

5) that Muhammad was not known as the seal of prophets until the late seventh century;

6) that the earliest we even hear of any Qur'an is not until the mid-eighth century;

7) and that the earliest Qur'anic writings do not coincide with the current Qur'anic text. All of this data contradicts the Qur'an which is in our possession, and adds to the suspicion that the Qur'an which we now read is NOT the same as that which was supposedly collated and canonized in 650 A.D. under Uthman, as Muslims contend (if indeed it even existed at that time). One can only assume that there must have been an evolution in the Qur'anic text. Consequently, the sole thing we can say with a certainty is that only the documents which we now possess (from 790 A.D. onwards) are the same as that which is in our hands today, written not 16 years after Muhammad's death but 160 years later, and thus not 1,400 years ago, but only 1,200 years ago.

The Bible:
1) LITTLE HAS BEEN LOST OF THE ORIGINAL

As for the Bible, with the abundance of existing manuscripts (handwritten copies) of the New Testament (more than 24,000), we know little has been lost through the transmission of the text. In fact there is more evidence for the reliability of the text of the New Testament than there is for any ten pieces of classical literature put together. It is in better textual shape than the 37 plays of William Shakespeare which were written a mere 300 years ago, after the invention of the printing press! This is indeed surprising, considering the early period in which the manuscripts were compiled, as well as the flimsy material on which they were written. The fact that we have such an abundance of manuscripts still in our possession points to the importance the scriptures have held for the church over the centuries.

2) THE TEXT IS RELIABLE AND HAS THE AUTHORITY OF THE WORD OF GOD

As far as we can know, the names, places, and events mentioned in the Bible have been recorded accurately so that what we have is the representation of what God said and did.

3) ONGOING DISCOVERIES CORROBORATE THE BIBLE

Besides the massive numbers of early New Testament documents, the Old Testament can also be substantiated by the Jewish community who continue to corroborate the proof for its accuracy, as well as documents such as the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls which give added weight to the claim that it has never been changed.

Even the Qur'an, possibly written during the 7th-8th centuries recognized the authority of our scriptures (see suras 2:136; 3:2-3; 4:136; 5:47-52,68; 10:95; 21:7; and 29:46). We also know that, outside of the few scribal errors, the historical events and personages are adequately correct, as they do not confuse names, dates and events, and in fact, surprisingly, continue to coincide with current archaeological findings. This is indeed significant, since with each successive year, ongoing documental and archaeological discoveries fail to divulge any historical contradictions. Instead they continue to corroborate what the Bible has been saying for 2,000-3,000 years (examples such as the Ebla tablets, or the newly discovered tomb of the priest Caiaphus give continuing credibility to the scriptures historical trustworthiness).

*Also, despite the small discrepancies about your first kiss between you and your companion at the time, the fact that the kiss happened would still have remained true.
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:20 PM   #69
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Just some thoughts on what has been said if I may. Regarding the passing down of stories verbally being problematic and unreliable: II Timothy 3:16 states: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" The obvious point here is that when the written words of the Bible were put down on paper, it was God Himself that inspired the various writers. Therefore in reality the words of the Bible are God's Words. Now, could Paul, who wrote Timothy, have just written verse 3:16 to make his words seem more powerful or whatever? Sure, I suppose so. But as Christians we take it on, here's that word again, faith, that the Bible is truth. Without faith, there is no hope. If you choose to reject the Bible, whether you realize it or not, you are taking it on faith, (you might call it lack of proof - I see it as the same thing really), that it is not true and that you will not suffer the consequences it warns of. That is your hope.

I understand the argument that using the Bible to prove the existence of God and the redeeming work of Christ can be deemed as circular reasoning, but that really does simplify the amazing continuity of the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation which you can only understand by first accepting Christ by faith, and then studying His word.

Also, it was previously stated that scare tactics of eternal hell fire are not appreciated. Well, I would look at it as warning someone of danger. If I saw, from across the street, that you were about to walk into the path of a speeding car, wouldn't you want me to warn you to look out? I would be too far to pull you away, just as I, or anyone else, cannot force you to become a believer in Christ. But I could yell out for you to stop, just as I can warn you of eternal damnation. So is it fair for God to allow people to spend eternity in Hell? He doesn't send unbelievers there, they choose to go by rejecting God's free gift of salvation. It's up to the individual where he will spend eternity. God offers the way out, you can accept it, or reject it. Your call.
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:49 PM   #70
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soonercamp and oldgus both have really good responses. Thanks for adding!
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:11 PM   #71
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Why don't we just end this ridiculous debate? No amount of arguing is going to change anyone's mind. You can all type until you are blue in the face (or fingers), all it is going to do is keep all of you arguing in circles. I promise you, no amount of quoting scripture and attempts to instill fear and guilt is going to change my mind or anyone else who is a non believer, and no amount of arguing about a lack of proof is going to change a "believer's" mind.

How about we all leave his thread alone and go hack to bickering about who waves and who doesn't?
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:24 PM   #72
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Why don't we just end this ridiculous debate? No amount of arguing is going to change anyone's mind. You can all type until you are blue in the face (or fingers), all it is going to do is keep all of you arguing in circles. I promise you, no amount of quoting scripture and attempts to instill fear and guilt is going to change my mind or anyone else who is a non believer, and no amount of arguing about a lack of proof is going to change a "believer's" mind.

How about we all leave his thread alone and go hack to bickering about who waves and who doesn't?
I don't believe we are arguing, nor am I pushing anything on unwanted ears and eyes. I would hope that after seeing evidence from both sides you would hopefully see that neither is in circular thinking...
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:28 PM   #73
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I don't believe we are arguing, nor am I pushing anything on unwanted ears and eyes. I would hope that after seeing evidence from both sides you would hopefully see that neither is in circular thinking...
This was not directed at you. These type of threads always go down the wrong path eventually and are full of circular logic and arguing. I am merely pleading for this thread to get lost in the archives, so it doesn't need to continue to be monitored.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:56 PM   #74
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Per the request of our Admins I will let this thread fall off the grid. Just want to say a quick thanks for the conversation and for keeping this all G rated.

Now to go and not wave at JKs.

Have a great day everyone.

Jeff
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:31 AM   #75
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Let me clarify, this thread is very civil especially given the topic. I apologize for the mixed signal that I was giving. This thread is more than welcome to continue as long as it is kept civil (as is has to this point). This thread is not in violation of any rules. My previous posts more from a personal non-admin standpoint and I should have made that clear. I apologize for my poor attempt to convey my point. Please continue debating the topic as long as all that participate are doing so in a civilized manner. I will keep my comments to myself unless I need to step in due to rule violations. Again, my most sincere apologies for sending a mixed message.
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:35 AM   #76
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Old 10-23-2010, 07:29 AM   #77
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I cannot believe people can still have this discussion. All religion is wrong. It is an attempt to tell the story of where we came from and where we are going after we die. No one knows this. Anyone who tells you they do is lying.

The fact that people still believe in the Bible is dumbfounding. It is the basis for some of the more crazy religions out there. They are always full of magic and mythical beings.

Now days we have so much better approximations. Science is a modern form of religion. The Big Bang Theory seems pretty ridiculous in its self, but science paints the most accurate picture of the world around us that we have available.

Science, however, is flawed as well. It is flawed at the core, its base, Math. Math is another great idea thought up by people, but you can never really have two of anything.

My religion says that "I" am god... But at least I know I am wrong.
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Old 10-23-2010, 09:44 AM   #78
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I cannot believe people can still have this discussion. All religion is wrong. It is an attempt to tell the story of where we came from and where we are going after we die. No one knows this. Anyone who tells you they do is lying.

The fact that people still believe in the Bible is dumbfounding. It is the basis for some of the more crazy religions out there. They are always full of magic and mythical beings.

Now days we have so much better approximations. Science is a modern form of religion. The Big Bang Theory seems pretty ridiculous in its self, but science paints the most accurate picture of the world around us that we have available.

Science, however, is flawed as well. It is flawed at the core, its base, Math. Math is another great idea thought up by people, but you can never really have two of anything.

My religion says that "I" am god... But at least I know I am wrong.
Prove it.
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Old 10-23-2010, 10:09 AM   #79
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Prove it.
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I cannot believe people can still have this discussion. All religion is wrong. It is an attempt to tell the story of where we came from and where we are going after we die. No one knows this. Anyone who tells you they do is lying.

The fact that people still believe in the Bible is dumbfounding. It is the basis for some of the more crazy religions out there. They are always full of magic and mythical beings.

Now days we have so much better approximations. Science is a modern form of religion. The Big Bang Theory seems pretty ridiculous in its self, but science paints the most accurate picture of the world around us that we have available.

Science, however, is flawed as well. It is flawed at the core, its base, Math. Math is another great idea thought up by people, but you can never really have two of anything.

My religion says that "I" am god... But at least I know I am wrong.
Alas I cannot.
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Old 10-23-2010, 11:14 AM   #80
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First, let me state that I am a born again Christian, saved by the blood of Christ, who died on the cross for my sins. That being said, I look at it this way:

"IF" they are right and there is No God, No after life, No Heaven, then I have lived a good life, I have played hard, loved much, raised my children to be responsible adults, wheeled all over this land, and have no regrets.

But just say, by the off chance that I am right, and you do have to be saved, and there is a God, and Jesus did die for our sins, just say, ... "IF" I am right, ..... I will go to heaven, ...
will you ?

My .02
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Old 10-23-2010, 02:12 PM   #81
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Yall know what?

at 47 years I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of God, Simply because I have never net him in person, But I WILL say this, I never been in a foxhole, but on the flight deck of a U.S.Navy aircraft carrier, when a explosion or flight deck fire or crash happens, theres no Atheists to be found, and a lot of preying going on.
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Old 10-23-2010, 02:36 PM   #82
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Why don't we just end this ridiculous debate? No amount of arguing is going to change anyone's mind. You can all type until you are blue in the face (or fingers), all it is going to do is keep all of you arguing in circles. I promise you, no amount of quoting scripture and attempts to instill fear and guilt is going to change my mind or anyone else who is a non believer, and no amount of arguing about a lack of proof is going to change a "believer's" mind.

How about we all leave his thread alone and go hack to bickering about who waves and who doesn't?
But if the thread reaches 20 pages maybe someone will get "saved"
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Old 10-23-2010, 03:35 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by soonercamp View Post
Prove it.
The Bible can only be proven to be a collection of books, culled and collected during the Synod of Carthage and the Council of Nicea that contain the early oral and written history of both the Jewish and Christian faith. It is a book that contains a whole bunch of good fables, life lessons and prophecies.

Much like a Tom Clancy novel there are elements in the Bible that are contemporaneous to events of the time and there are characters that exist both in the books of the Bible and in secular history.

Other than that, there is nothing that can be proven.
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Old 10-23-2010, 03:39 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by jgano23 View Post
Why don't we just end this ridiculous debate? No amount of arguing is going to change anyone's mind. You can all type until you are blue in the face (or fingers), all it is going to do is keep all of you arguing in circles. I promise you, no amount of quoting scripture and attempts to instill fear and guilt is going to change my mind or anyone else who is a non believer, and no amount of arguing about a lack of proof is going to change a "believer's" mind.

How about we all leave his thread alone and go hack to bickering about who waves and who doesn't?
From experience on other fora I don't believe most have a desire to change other's minds. Much like a chat at a bar or conversation at a club this debate, like that of economics or politics is a way to broaden our own views, to just "think".

And for the most part that is a really good end game.
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:05 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by McBear
The Bible can only be proven to be a collection of books, culled and collected during the Synod of Carthage and the Council of Nicea that contain the early oral and written history of both the Jewish and Christian faith. It is a book that contains a whole bunch of good fables, life lessons and prophecies.

Much like a Tom Clancy novel there are elements in the Bible that are contemporaneous to events of the time and there are characters that exist both in the books of the Bible and in secular history.

Other than that, there is nothing that can be proven.
Archaeology has made some important contributions but it certainly can't prove whether the New Testament is the Word of God. If we dig in Israel and find ancient sites that are consistent with where the Bible said we'd find them, that shows that its history and geography are accurate. However, it doesn't confirm that what Jesus Christ said was right. Spiritual truths cannot be proved or disproved by archaeological discoveries. Should this automatically make what he claims false? I think that more of what your describing could be said of the Old Testament since it includes mostly stories or what I would call accounts of God interacting with his people on a personal level.
But I will strongly disagree that want the girth of the New Testament offers is anything but stories.
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:45 AM   #86
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Just wanted to say, the entire bible is begging the question. It gives no references to prove itself, it's basically like saying "The bible is right because the bible says so." Telling stories about Jesus walking through a "desert of temptation" doesn't prove anything, just that people can make up really good stories. It plays on your emotion instead of logic to make you think. It's like a really good speech that's been written by a very diplomatic person. Very nice and convincing, but not much truth or evidence to back it up.

It actually uses many logical fallacies to get you to believe. The one most people are familiar with is the Appeal to Force, basically a threat. Just saying, "You're going to go to hell if you don't believe this" doesn't prove anything.

Another is the Appeal to Pity, basically whenever Jesus was tortured or anything like that. This causes empathy for the story of Jesus and again, doesn't actually prove anything.

And just some stuff about other beliefs:

Egyption God Horus, (3000 BC)
- Born on Dec 25th
- Born of a Virgin
- Star in the East on day of birth
- Adorned by 3 kings
- Was a teacher at 12
- Had 12 disciples

Greek God Attis (1200 BC)
- Born on Dec 25th
- Born of a Virgin
- Crucified
- Dead for 3 days
- Ressurected

Persian God Mithra (1200 BC)
- Born on Dec 25th
- Born of a Virgin
- 12 Disciples
- Performed miracles
- Dead for 3 days
- Ressurected
- Sunday worship

Seem familiar?
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:47 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Oswald View Post
Just wanted to say, the entire bible is begging the question. It gives no references to prove itself, it's basically like saying "The bible is right because the bible says so." Telling stories about Jesus walking through a "desert of temptation" doesn't prove anything, just that people can make up really good stories. It plays on your emotion instead of logic to make you think. It's like a really good speech that's been written by a very diplomatic person. Very nice and convincing, but not much truth or evidence to back it up.

It actually uses many logical fallacies to get you to believe. The one most people are familiar with is the Appeal to Force, basically a threat. Just saying, "You're going to go to hell if you don't believe this" doesn't prove anything.

Another is the Appeal to Pity, basically whenever Jesus was tortured or anything like that. This causes empathy for the story of Jesus and again, doesn't actually prove anything.

And just some stuff about other beliefs:

Egyption God Horus, (3000 BC)
- Born on Dec 25th
- Born of a Virgin
- Star in the East on day of birth
- Adorned by 3 kings
- Was a teacher at 12
- Had 12 disciples

Greek God Attis (1200 BC)
- Born on Dec 25th
- Born of a Virgin
- Crucified
- Dead for 3 days
- Ressurected

Persian God Mithra (1200 BC)
- Born on Dec 25th
- Born of a Virgin
- 12 Disciples
- Performed miracles
- Dead for 3 days
- Ressurected
- Sunday worship

Seem familiar?
Thats because there is only 1 God, unless your Pagan, Satanic/Demonic or muslim/islamic, and you worship God you worship the same God
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I am finally on board with obama's hope and change thing. I now HOPE that when its all over I have at least a little CHANGE left.
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Old 10-24-2010, 01:33 PM   #88
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Old 10-24-2010, 02:16 PM   #89
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I gotta say that on most forums, this would have turned into a free for all and mud slinging....


I commend ALL of the participants!
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Old 10-24-2010, 06:20 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by jim_n_Looziana View Post
I gotta say that on most forums, this would have turned into a free for all and mud slinging....


I commend ALL of the participants!
yep, but ya gotta remember were adults here, not children or religious fanatics.

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I am finally on board with obama's hope and change thing. I now HOPE that when its all over I have at least a little CHANGE left.
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