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Old 10-25-2010, 12:14 AM   #91
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I need to put my .2 in as well. So- the person who says they are a believer & will go to heaven thinks that someone who doesn't believe BUT has led a moral, kind & giving life is still going to hell because they don't choose to be saved?
Kind of doesn't make sence to me, we are still GOOD people who don't intentionally do the wrong thing by others so whats the deal with us going down under anyway?
One things for sure if thats the case then I won't be needing a coat where I'm going

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Old 10-25-2010, 01:48 AM   #92
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I'm chiming in late...and I'm just gonna make this really quick based on the only reply I see on this page which is jcf's. The bible doesn't say good people deserve to go to heaven...it says those who believe Jesus died for our sins, who accept Jesus into their hearts, etc. go to heaven.

A terrible Christian may not necessarily go to heaven either though...in the end it all comes down to, "Are you right with God?" If you're a terrible person but claimed to be a Christian...you may not be right with God and he will be the one to judge you when you die. A good person still didn't believe in God... so why should they be accepted into heaven? It's kinda like being covered under your auto insurance after a wreck when you refused to pay for the premiums...it's too late once you wreck. You're not allowed to just buy in once you realize you need it.

That's why they call it having FAITH in God.

Now off to bed I go

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Old 10-25-2010, 10:00 AM   #93
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It all comes down to personal prefferance & freedom of what you want to believe in & I think we would all agree on that. Anyone can say they do or don't believe in something, but they are the only ones who know if they are being truthfull with themselves & at the end no one really knows whats in store for us, it's a big guessing game.
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Old 10-25-2010, 11:34 AM   #94
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I think the title of this thread is a little mis-leading. I believe in God but don't call myself a Christian. Atheists don't believe in God, a supreme creator, maker of heaven and earth.
My reason for not calling myself a Christian is the same as some others have stated. Condemning one to eternal damnation for not proclaiming Jesus as your personal savior isn't consistent with the compassionate Creator I have come to know and love, who I can pray too, and who gives me comfort.

Why is it all religions have a common theme, "my way or no way" ? (sound familiar?)

And here is a serious question to Christians : what happens to all the human beings on this planet (Amazonian Indians, Australian Pygmies, remote African tribes, etc.) who have never seen or heard anyone from the "outside" world, when the "almighty rapture" happens ? Or a deaf blind person for that matter.
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Old 10-25-2010, 11:56 AM   #95
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↑ please define "Australian Pygmy" & does 5'4" meet the requirments?
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Old 10-25-2010, 12:07 PM   #96
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^ God's "smallest children"
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Old 10-25-2010, 03:52 PM   #97
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Archaeology has made some important contributions but it certainly can't prove whether the New Testament is the Word of God. If we dig in Israel and find ancient sites that are consistent with where the Bible said we'd find them, that shows that its history and geography are accurate. However, it doesn't confirm that what Jesus Christ said was right. Spiritual truths cannot be proved or disproved by archaeological discoveries. Should this automatically make what he claims false? I think that more of what your describing could be said of the Old Testament since it includes mostly stories or what I would call accounts of God interacting with his people on a personal level.
But I will strongly disagree that want the girth of the New Testament offers is anything but stories.
My concerns with the New Testament are how they changed to become the current collection of 27 Books. As the Bible became its current form for Christians through the two major "conferences" [Synod of Carthage and Council of Nicea] the number of books was winnowed down. Books by Disciples such as Thomas were removed from the Bible. Why? Was it because he had a different point of view? The Agnostics provide extra insight to the times but were removed because they didn't preach the same message.

Then there is the very simple list of the Disciples. There were 12 of them. They were together for several years yet, when we read Matthew, Mark, Luke and Acts the lists show different names. The cynic in me says that the Divine word needed proof reading. It at least brings questions of accuracy and factual integrity to bear.

I firmly believe that the Bible is a good book to teach a good life and good moral principles. To suggest that it is inerrant or to suggest that it is divine wanders into the realm of personal faith only. Not a bad thing but a personal thing none the less.
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Old 10-26-2010, 01:08 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by King of Beers View Post
I cannot believe people can still have this discussion. All religion is wrong. It is an attempt to tell the story of where we came from and where we are going after we die. No one knows this. Anyone who tells you they do is lying.

The fact that people still believe in the Bible is dumbfounding. It is the basis for some of the more crazy religions out there. They are always full of magic and mythical beings.

Now days we have so much better approximations. Science is a modern form of religion. The Big Bang Theory seems pretty ridiculous in its self, but science paints the most accurate picture of the world around us that we have available.

Science, however, is flawed as well. It is flawed at the core, its base, Math. Math is another great idea thought up by people, but you can never really have two of anything.

My religion says that "I" am god... But at least I know I am wrong.
I agree with King of Beers, and not just because he has such a cool handle, lol! Well I am not a full blown atheist, more agnostic, I try to be open minded. But even so I find it hard to believe that grown men believe in a book that tells of talking snakes and walking on water and expects us to believe that it is true. How can one believe such nonsense? Maybe there is a god and maybe there isn't but I don't believe in that book. To me it's just paper with typing and a binding. I know I'm a good person so that's all that matters to me.
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Old 10-27-2010, 05:15 AM   #99
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Now this topic isn't such a bad thing, everyone has kept their cool & voiced their opinion without a heated argument or resorting to name calling & personal abuse. Well done forum! It is a touchy subject & it's good that we can all get on regardless of our conflictions
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:46 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudenCrafty View Post
I agree with King of Beers, and not just because he has such a cool handle, lol! Well I am not a full blown atheist, more agnostic, I try to be open minded. But even so I find it hard to believe that grown men believe in a book that tells of talking snakes and walking on water and expects us to believe that it is true. How can one believe such nonsense? Maybe there is a god and maybe there isn't but I don't believe in that book. To me it's just paper with typing and a binding. I know I'm a good person so that's all that matters to me.
I think people back in those days were just crazy and that was considered normal... as an avid reptile hobbyist, I traveled to Kansas one weekend back in 05 to look for rattlesnakes and while in a local family restaurant/tavern we got to talking to these old folks who were eating beside us and they swore up and down that the rattlesnakes there would make a hoop and roll across the road (hoop snakes anyone?) and if you came up on one while it was rolling across the road, they would jump right up on your hood.

When we tried to explain to these folks that rattlesnakes can't roll across the road in a hoop...and it's also physically impossible for one to jump onto the hood of your vehicle from the ground, they looked at US like we were crazy and said, "That's not true! I've seen it with my own eyes!"

These people weren't just a bunch of old rednecks with no teeth in a bar...they were nicely dressed and looked/talked pretty normal aside from living in the middle of BFE.

Anyway...if that was their normal way of thinking, I don't think they're any crazier than some of the books in the bible. My roommates are both a lot stronger Christians than I am...but we're all "different" from your normal bible thumpers. We have our own beliefs on Christianity, we don't attend church regularly, and one of them seems to have a scientific explanation for a lot of the crazy unexplained stuff...granted the timing is so coincidental he feels that it is perfect evidence suggesting there IS a God, but at the same time, it explains what happened pretty well. Those people weren't scientists...so they didn't know exactly what happened and they just came up with some crazy story to describe it.
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Old 10-27-2010, 09:00 AM   #101
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To quote the movie Easy Rider; "if God doesn't exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

And it is much more reasonable that Jesus was the result of artificial insemination by a superior alien race looking to advance the human race than the magical "immaculate conception" by an all-knowing, all-powerful spiritual being/beings.
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Old 10-27-2010, 12:02 PM   #102
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Not sure how far this has gone or which direction it is in now, but I have been through several Theology courses and it changed my thoughts on any organized religion. I suggest everyone go through a coarse and make their own determination about religion. With that being said, I have landed on Buddhism as a way of life solely based on what the founder wanted. The original Buddha was an atheist, but knew that there were many religions in the world. That is why he wanted his system to be more of a guide for life.

I personally feel that organized religion is a way for people to control the masses through fear or the promise of better times. It is also a way for people to explain things that they do not understand. See an space craft or meteorite in the sky; Well heck...that must be Apollo riding on his fiery chariot.
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:02 AM   #103
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Sorry, but there are more facts for Jesus's claims being true than not.
Ever had someone try to take your life?
Ever come close to losing your life?
Ever look at the mountains or the ocean?
Ever look into the face of a kitten or puppy?

Aint no one can convince me there's no God. I know better.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord".
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Old 11-17-2010, 10:10 AM   #104
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Ever had someone try to take your life?
Ever come close to losing your life?
Ever look at the mountains or the ocean?
Ever look into the face of a kitten or puppy?

Aint no one can convince me there's no God. I know better.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord".
Yes, once in a foreign country I had a terrorist try to kill me while I was repairing a helicopter.
Yes, on the Flight Deck of an Aircraft Carrier during a fire
Yes, both
Yes, when ever I can

Like I said before I can neither confirm or deny the existence of God. Is a matter of faith weather or not somebody believes, after all I have seen I can say I have faith, and I believe.
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Old 11-17-2010, 12:28 PM   #105
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Without faith, there is no hope.
Yup, thus my quote from Easy Rider.

Many religions share similar stories. The most common is the story of the great flood. Although different religions mention this large disaster, it is only the Christians who claim the salvation of life on this planet to only one rightuous man: Noah.

Extraterrestrial theorists hypothesize that Noah was another person who was born via artificial insemination of the extraterrestrials (like Jesus). Humankind was stagnant, undeveloping, so the "otherly beings" chose Noah's mother to inseminate with their dna to help the human race advance. Then the flood was "created" to wipe out the rest of the stagnant humanoid race.

Ever wonder how after thousands of years, civilization has advanced exponentially in just the last 100 years? How DID that happen without any outside influences?
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Old 11-17-2010, 06:41 PM   #106
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saw a bumper sticker today.
"If 10 percent is enough for the government, It should be enough for god"
I work with a guy that pays 150 smackers to his church every week as does his wife. It's his and her 10 percent but it seems to me that this is the business to be in.
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Old 11-17-2010, 08:29 PM   #107
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I work with the Student Ministries at my church. I come across Atheists and Agnostics frequently. After long conversation of my views/beliefs and their views and beliefs if they have any. The conversation usually ends with me telling them:

One of these days when I die, if the atheist is right, then I will die knowing that I haven't lost much. I lived a moral, healthy, responsible life. But if I, the Christian, is right when the atheist dies he has lost everything. He lived a life with no care, but will pay for it for eternity.

Some people say it's wrong, scaring people into heaven, but it's more like sac ring people out of hell.

One of my favorite quotes ever:
Question with BOLDNESS, the very existence of God, for if there be a God, he would rather honest questioning over blindfolded fear. Thomas Jefferson
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Question with BOLDNESS, the very existence of God, for if there be a God, he would rather honest questioning, over blindfolded fear.
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Old 11-18-2010, 06:33 AM   #108
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All of these ancient beliefs and rituals fascinate me.
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Old 11-18-2010, 07:57 AM   #109
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Wow, this thread is back. Please do me and some of the others a favor and read through the thread. Lots of this stuff has been addressed in previous posts.

Let me say another thing. HOW IN THE WORLD - can you compare theories and myths to the bible which holds its ground historically and archeologically. Not even a comparison. If the bible came first then it's easy to deduce that all myths legends and stories were branches off of biblical truths.
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:00 AM   #110
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The bible didn't come first. Nostradamus didn't write it. The bible was written as a historical account of history. AND... commen men chose which books to include or exclude. There are a lot more "biblical writings" than what is actually included in the copy you pick up and read today.
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:41 AM   #111
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Here's a link to a video of last weeks sermon from where I go to church. The pastor does a good job of explaining why there is only one way to heaven.

Just click on the video link once you get to the page. Yes this is a church sermon and it is 1hr long but if you have certain questions or reservations, humor me and watch it. If I'm wrong it will only cost you one hour. If your wrong it will cost you your life.
Life Center Foursquare Church Sermons > Exclusivity
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Old 11-18-2010, 01:01 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by PatriotNC View Post
Ever had someone try to take your life?
Ever come close to losing your life?
Ever look at the mountains or the ocean?
Ever look into the face of a kitten or puppy?

Aint no one can convince me there's no God. I know better.

"As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord".
Yes
Yes
Yes, Yes
Yes, Yes

None of that suggests that a higher power exists. Or that it doesn't exist. Or that if it does it is or is not the Christian representation of the higher power.

I have also seen men burned to a crisp.
I have also seen the World Trade Center burning [from 49th and 8th]
I have also seen the good die, the bad live.
I have also seen prayers for miracles at hospitals and at football games.

There are millions of people dieing of starvation on one side of this world and millions of people dieing from the effects of gluttony on the other.

All anecdotal facts of nature and human behavior.
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Old 11-18-2010, 02:28 PM   #113
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Without faith, there is no hope.

I have faith but am not a Christian (or any other belief). I have faith in myself that I can accomplish what I want or accept when I fail and try again.
I would consider myself an agnostic. While I don't think there is a God I understand that are a lot of things that happen that can't be explained by science. The Bible may be considered the word of God but it was still written by men. With so many cultures, how can only one be right? You guys all sound like you know a lot and from my view, you could be right, but you could be wrong as well. I don't lean 100% to anyoes team because I know I could also be wrong.


agnostic
–noun
1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as god, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
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Old 11-18-2010, 05:56 PM   #114
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I have faith but am not a Christian (or any other belief). I have faith in myself that I can accomplish what I want or accept when I fail and try again.
I would consider myself an agnostic. While I don't think there is a God I understand that are a lot of things that happen that can't be explained by science. The Bible may be considered the word of God but it was still written by men. With so many cultures, how can only one be right? You guys all sound like you know a lot and from my view, you could be right, but you could be wrong as well. I don't lean 100% to anyoes team because I know I could also be wrong.


agnostic
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1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as god, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
Bravo!
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:54 PM   #115
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I know one thing...Myself being Christian, I sure am glad that God, revealed himself just enough for man to question whether he exists or not. Also, that he has revealed enough for me to believe in his existence without being ignorant or blinded like that of any "religion."
Is there hurt, pain, and detestable things in this world? Yes.
Does the bible have clear and solid reasoning that a loving God can condemn and allow this? Yes.
Is there enough evidence to believe that the bible could actually be God's word? Yes.

I'm sorry, if your hurt, mad or just plain wanting to reject God, so be it. But don't use your emotion to prove my God(Jehovah) does or doesn't exist.

My everyday, consist of working for God. I am in the ministry and so are millions of others. Don't you think that just maybe we have weighed these questions before considering making service to God a 'career'?

Okay, consider this. Doesn't it just seem a little strange that Christianity has withstood the test of time and extreme scrutiny through the centuries. I would tend to think it would have died out the second Jesus did not rise from the grave...But there is not only written evidence that he did but an amazing foundation from which we serve today. Just like Gamaleil said, "For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." Acts 5:38-39

There is just too much to keep me from seeking God!
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:20 PM   #116
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This is not a football game. This is not SD vsDEN . There will never be a clear winner. SD. Fans will never roo for the home team at mile high. I don't see what the.point here is. I'm going back to watch MNF hehe.have a good night both worshippers of god and none believers alike
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:30 PM   #117
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This is not a football game. This is not SD vsDEN . There will never be a clear winner. SD. Fans will never roo for the home team at mile high. I don't see what the.point here is. I'm going back to watch MNF hehe.have a good night both worshippers of god and none believers alike
Problem here with this analogy is that in this "game" there is a winner and a loser...and what are the ramifications? You would say, there are none and I would simply say, there are too many.

The game will end. But who will be the winners? Tune in to see. When the game of life is at it's end.
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:38 PM   #118
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Problem here with this analogy is that in this "game" there is a winner and a loser...and what are the ramifications? You would say, there are none and I would simply say, there are too many.

The game will end. But who will be the winners? Tune in to see. When the game of life is at it's end.
What about the deaf and blind man, who is unable to "tune in to see" ?..Will he be a winner, or a loser ?
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Old 11-19-2010, 08:27 AM   #119
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What about the deaf and blind man, who is unable to "tune in to see" ?..Will he be a winner, or a loser ?
We have deaf and blind man that attend our church.

Even better, I have seen people that can't hear, begin to hear, people come into our church in a wheelchair walk out pushing it. I've seen cancer supernaturally removed, tumors vanish, it's even happened to me and my family. I'm a living testimony, doctors said I had a brain tumor, saw it on the MRI, after prayer, the doctor can't seem to find it, no more headaches. Hmmmmmmmm

There ain't no convincing me there is no God. But maybe some haven't had quite the experience I have. And there will be some that say: well what about the children in Africa dying of AIDS and the people on 9/11 and the babies killed in abortion clinics. Yeah sometimes it rains, and sometimes when it rains it really pours hard. But the God in heaven that spoke EVERYTHING into existence, has a reason for everything.

I'm still not sure why my little 5 yr old nephew had to die in a car wreck, but murderers, rapist, terrorists, etc get released from prison everyday just to go back to their olds ways, but God knows.
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Old 11-19-2010, 08:58 AM   #120
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Okay, consider this. Doesn't it just seem a little strange that Christianity has withstood the test of time and extreme scrutiny through the centuries.
The problem with this statement is that it automatically implies that all other Gods/religions haven't stood the test of time and therefore are not correct. The fact that Christianity still exists today has no bearing on whether other religions are wrong & Christianity is right. If that be the case, then why couldn't Hindus or Jews use that same argument to prove that their religion is correct & Christianity is wrong?

You should really think about these things before making these types of baseless rationale for your argument that Christianity is the one and only correct religion.

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