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Old 11-19-2010, 01:19 PM   #121
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I just found this thread. I am not a person who likes to debate. I do not have alot of education or schooling and I simply do not like confrontations.

But I will boldly say that I absolutely do believe Jesus was supernaturally born of a virgin, walked the earth just as mentioned in the Bible and he is alive even today and that he is the son of God. I believe that he suffered and died for me and he is risen, not dead. He has the power to forgive and to heal. He gives peace and comfort if we call on him for help. In other words, he is compassionate... the most compassionate person to have existed.

People speak about Jesus and God who is his Father as not being compassionate because they have believed a lie that has been told them. Believign that Jesus and God are not compassionate is believeing a lie... because satan wants, more than anything, to prevent us from being saved, from being at peace, he wants to prevent us from receiving the gift of eternal life which Jesus is offering to us. The Devil is the father and source of all lies. And God hates the sin. God and sin can not coexist, it is impossible. Sin seperates us from God. People with sin are seperated from God. We ALL have sinned and fallen short. So we ALL have sin in our hearts even if we are the nices person on earth. We've inherited sin into our lives at birth because of the fall in the garden of Eden by Adam. Hell was created only for the Devil and his angles. But when sin entered into Adam in the garden, from that point on we were all born into sin. Again, sin and God cannot coexist. And so, when we refuse the salvation and forgiveness from Jesus by not accepting Jesus (who is the only one capable of forgiving sin), then WE condemn OURSELVES. God wants us to be delivered from that fate so much that he sent his only son Jesus to take on all of my sin so that I would not have to go to hell. That is compassion!

And so, if a person, regardless how good, kind, generous, giving and loving they are (even if they were as wonderful a person as mother tereesa was)... if they choose not to accept Jesus then they cannot be cleansed from the sin that they are born with.

The answer? Jesus is the ONLY one who can wipe away your and my sins. The only one. Regardless of what other religions there are, there is only one way to salvation. That is not politically correct. But it is truth. The Devil created those other distractions and religious lies to prevent our salvation and to cause massive confusion. THere is only one way. But it is very easy to be freed from our sins by just having a repentent heart and asking "Jesus, please forgive me. I am sorry. I believe that you are Gods son and only you can heal and wash me clean.". That is easy, but it came at a very high cost for the person who made it possible. We must believe that Jesus is real and the son of God and that he died for the sins of the world so that we would not have to go to hell. That is where faith comes in. "Blessed are they have not seen, and yet have believed". Thomas, one of Jesus own disciples, did not believe Jesus was risen again until he saw Jesus and touched Jesus hands and feet where the nails went through him and until he put his hand into Jesus side where a spear had piearced his body.

So, without proof, why should we believe? And how is it possible to believe? Jesus said that he draws people to him through the Holy Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit can cause a person to feel convicted in their hearts enough to say "Jesus, I believe in you. Please forgive me of my sins. Wash me clean again.". But do not expect to see miraculous signs to prove anything. Do not ask for miracles to prove. Jesus says that a wicked generation only asks to see signs and wonders. Instead, you must choose to believe and ask for forgiveness when you feel that conviction (alot of times conviction is seen as guilt) .

I do not like to debate but I did want to share that with you all and what I believe. I'm not one who likes confrontation so this is rare for me. I've not type anything like this before in a public forum or anywhere else for that matter. I've recently been delivered from my sins of alcoholism and many other disgusting thing by doing what I described above. I asked Jesus to forgive me, to help me, and to keep me from falling back into my past habits and sin. And that is why I can say without a doubt that I believe on Jesus and all that the Bible says. Because he has answered that prayer I made. If what I've type helps anyone then great, If it doesn't then I'm okay with that too.

Thanks,

Ben

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Old 11-19-2010, 02:05 PM   #122
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I just found this thread. I am not a person who likes to debate. I do not have alot of education or schooling and I simply do not like confrontations.

But I will boldly say that I absolutely do believe Jesus was supernaturally born of a virgin, walked the earth just as mentioned in the Bible and he is alive even today and that he is the son of God. I believe that he suffered and died for me and he is risen, not dead. He has the power to forgive and to heal. He gives peace and comfort if we call on him for help. In other words, he is compassionate... the most compassionate person to have existed.

People speak about Jesus and God who is his Father as not being compassionate because they have believed a lie that has been told them. Believign that Jesus and God are not compassionate is believeing a lie... because satan wants, more than anything, to prevent us from being saved, from being at peace, he wants to prevent us from receiving the gift of eternal life which Jesus is offering to us. The Devil is the father and source of all lies. And God hates the sin. God and sin can not coexist, it is impossible. Sin seperates us from God. People with sin are seperated from God. We ALL have sinned and fallen short. So we ALL have sin in our hearts even if we are the nices person on earth. We've inherited sin into our lives at birth because of the fall in the garden of Eden by Adam. Hell was created only for the Devil and his angles. But when sin entered into Adam in the garden, from that point on we were all born into sin. Again, sin and God cannot coexist. And so, when we refuse the salvation and forgiveness from Jesus by not accepting Jesus (who is the only one capable of forgiving sin), then WE condemn OURSELVES. God wants us to be delivered from that fate so much that he sent his only son Jesus to take on all of my sin so that I would not have to go to hell. That is compassion!

And so, if a person, regardless how good, kind, generous, giving and loving they are (even if they were as wonderful a person as mother tereesa was)... if they choose not to accept Jesus then they cannot be cleansed from the sin that they are born with.

The answer? Jesus is the ONLY one who can wipe away your and my sins. The only one. Regardless of what other religions there are, there is only one way to salvation. That is not politically correct. But it is truth. The Devil created those other distractions and religious lies to prevent our salvation and to cause massive confusion. THere is only one way. But it is very easy to be freed from our sins by just having a repentent heart and asking "Jesus, please forgive me. I am sorry. I believe that you are Gods son and only you can heal and wash me clean.". That is easy, but it came at a very high cost for the person who made it possible. We must believe that Jesus is real and the son of God and that he died for the sins of the world so that we would not have to go to hell. That is where faith comes in. "Blessed are they have not seen, and yet have believed". Thomas, one of Jesus own disciples, did not believe Jesus was risen again until he saw Jesus and touched Jesus hands and feet where the nails went through him and until he put his hand into Jesus side where a spear had piearced his body.

So, without proof, why should we believe? And how is it possible to believe? Jesus said that he draws people to him through the Holy Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit can cause a person to feel convicted in their hearts enough to say "Jesus, I believe in you. Please forgive me of my sins. Wash me clean again.". But do not expect to see miraculous signs to prove anything. Do not ask for miracles to prove. Jesus says that a wicked generation only asks to see signs and wonders. Instead, you must choose to believe and ask for forgiveness when you feel that conviction (alot of times conviction is seen as guilt) .

I do not like to debate but I did want to share that with you all and what I believe. I'm not one who likes confrontation so this is rare for me. I've not type anything like this before in a public forum or anywhere else for that matter. I've recently been delivered from my sins of alcoholism and many other disgusting thing by doing what I described above. I asked Jesus to forgive me, to help me, and to keep me from falling back into my past habits and sin. And that is why I can say without a doubt that I believe on Jesus and all that the Bible says. Because he has answered that prayer I made. If what I've type helps anyone then great, If it doesn't then I'm okay with that too.

Thanks,

Ben
I couldn't have said it better myself.

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Old 11-19-2010, 02:11 PM   #123
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I couldn't have said it better myself.
Chris - you posted that while I was reading his post and you took the words right out of my mouth. Great witness and testimony Ben!
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Old 11-19-2010, 03:02 PM   #124
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The problem with this statement is that it automatically implies that all other Gods/religions haven't stood the test of time and therefore are not correct. The fact that Christianity still exists today has no bearing on whether other religions are wrong & Christianity is right. If that be the case, then why couldn't Hindus or Jews use that same argument to prove that their religion is correct & Christianity is wrong?

You should really think about these things before making these types of baseless rationale for your argument that Christianity is the one and only correct religion.
To put this as lightly as I can...

I have thought, studied, and questioned all of this. Nothing I have said is from emotion or without basis. Maybe to better refute your statement. You should study and see why religion doesn't withstand that which the bible endures and asks to take on. Religion lives because man is always seeking... whether he decides to believe in the God of the bible or some other religion, or more of what I am seeing today - belief in self - none the less he is seeking.
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Old 11-21-2010, 09:58 PM   #125
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The answer? Jesus is the ONLY one who can wipe away your and my sins. The only one. Regardless of what other religions there are, there is only one way to salvation.
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So is it fair for God to allow people to spend eternity in Hell? He doesn't send unbelievers there, they choose to go by rejecting God's free gift of salvation. It's up to the individual where he will spend eternity. God offers the way out, you can accept it, or reject it. Your call.
I respect everyones opinion, but I still haven't seen an answer to my question :
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I think the title of this thread is a little mis-leading. I believe in God but don't call myself a Christian. Atheists don't believe in God, a supreme creator, maker of heaven and earth.
And here is a serious question to Christians : what happens to all the human beings on this planet (Amazonian Indians, Australian Pygmies, remote African tribes, etc.) who have never seen or heard anyone from the "outside" world, when the "almighty rapture" happens ? Or a deaf blind person for that matter.
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Old 11-21-2010, 10:11 PM   #126
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just checking in on the argument again. back to MNF

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Old 11-21-2010, 10:46 PM   #127
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^ Giants need a miracle
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Old 11-21-2010, 11:02 PM   #128
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I respect everyones opinion, but I still haven't seen an answer to my question :
Alright, to the best of my ability, I will tell you what I think and how I understand it ...

Those who have never been given the OPTION to accept Christ as their savior would be in heaven ... for people who have been given to option and rejected it will be in hell ... that's how I have always understood it.

I have been a Christian for about 20 years (not always the best reflection of that though), my dad was one of my Youth Pastors, and is a licensed minister and a deacon, I'm an inactive deacon.
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Old 11-21-2010, 11:52 PM   #129
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^ O.K., thanks for the response. It doesn't sound very fair to me.

I spend a lot of time in the desert, which is hotter than hell, so I'll be prepared...
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:50 AM   #130
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To put this as lightly as I can...

I have thought, studied, and questioned all of this. Nothing I have said is from emotion or without basis. Maybe to better refute your statement. You should study and see why religion doesn't withstand that which the bible endures and asks to take on. Religion lives because man is always seeking... whether he decides to believe in the God of the bible or some other religion, or more of what I am seeing today - belief in self - none the less he is seeking.
Again, you are forcing the fact/assumption that the Bible is the true and only correct account of God/man/religion. Crawl out of your box of Christianity. Had you been alive 200 years ago, you probably would have still been a Christian and a slave owner; thinking that nothing is wrong with that. It sounds like you are the type of person who has to live outside of your comfort zone and experience other people's point of view before you could even consider them valid.
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So, without proof, why should we believe? And how is it possible to believe? Jesus said that he draws people to him through the Holy Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit can cause a person to feel convicted in their hearts enough to say "Jesus, I believe in you. Please forgive me of my sins. Wash me clean again.". But do not expect to see miraculous signs to prove anything. Do not ask for miracles to prove. Jesus says that a wicked generation only asks to see signs and wonders. Instead, you must choose to believe and ask for forgiveness when you feel that conviction (alot of times conviction is seen as guilt)
That's all find and dandy for those who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit. What about those who haven't? Isn't that why there are missionaries all over the world? So, out of ignorance of your God & lack of the Holy Spirit, all these others are condemned for eternity? That's your loving, rightuous God?
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Old 11-22-2010, 12:24 PM   #131
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A couple things here...
1) Don't state your opinion as fact and the only possible correct answer. Don't just say, I'm a Christian, I believe in Jesus Christ as the savior & the Bible is the only true account of God because some of the writings in it are provable through archealogical findings.

That's popycock. It's your opinion and it does not disprove anybody else's religion. If you're going to discuss this, do some research, state some proven facts and make your point.

Other religions fall in line with archealogicl findings too. Christianity was forced down the world's throats in the dark ages which is why it was so widely accepted as correct. Had it not been for the crusades spreading Christianity and forcing it upon others, the world might be worshipping the Greek or Roman gods to this day. Right now, Muslims are on the front line with their missionary evangelism. When they kill all the non-believers or foce their religion on the rest of the world like the Christians did, will all of the sudden THAT become the one true religion?


2) As a Christian, what is going to happen to you after you die if you are wrong? What if Jesus was just a prophet of another God but he had a Messiah complex (ever see The Life of Brian)? If Christians are wrong, and they face their maker in a day of judgement, and the God says to them, "why were you so judgemental and not accept others' religions? Why did you not believe in me?" Then, what's going to happen?
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Old 11-22-2010, 12:26 PM   #132
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That's all find and dandy for those who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit. What about those who haven't? Isn't that why there are missionaries all over the world? So, out of ignorance of your God & lack of the Holy Spirit, all these others are condemned for eternity? That's your loving, rightuous God?
I think what they're telling us is, if we had ignored that knock at the door when those two kids rode up on bicycles, wearing ties, we would be going to heaven. But since we opened the door and listened to their spiel, we are going to hell. Something like that. I think.
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Old 11-22-2010, 01:07 PM   #133
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I think the title of this thread is a little mis-leading. I believe in God but don't call myself a Christian. Atheists don't believe in God, a supreme creator, maker of heaven and earth.
My reason for not calling myself a Christian is the same as some others have stated. Condemning one to eternal damnation for not proclaiming Jesus as your personal savior isn't consistent with the compassionate Creator I have come to know and love, who I can pray too, and who gives me comfort.

Why is it all religions have a common theme, "my way or no way" ? (sound familiar?)

And here is a serious question to Christians : what happens to all the human beings on this planet (Amazonian Indians, Australian Pygmies, remote African tribes, etc.) who have never seen or heard anyone from the "outside" world, when the "almighty rapture" happens ? Or a deaf blind person for that matter.
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I think what they're telling us is, if we had ignored that knock at the door when those two kids rode up on bicycles, wearing ties, we would be going to heaven. But since we opened the door and listened to their spiel, we are going to hell. Something like that. I think.
In some of these discussions the first question I ask is "what is opposite of Christian?" The usual answer is "Atheist" which is not correct. The correct answer is "NON Christian" which includes Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish and the hundreds of other religions that dot the Earth [including those who have never heard of any organized religion]. Most Christians seem to believe, however that it is either Christian or Nothing. And that is what puts them in a class of religion with folks like Muslims...believing that theirs is the only religion that counts.

Interestingly they base their assumption of religious superiority on Jewish texts [the first four books of the Old Testament]. That conundrum never ceases to amaze folks who look at Christianity from the outside.

Full disclosure: Recovering Southern Baptist for 25 or so years. Former in-laws were officers in the Southern Baptist Convention, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville and Western Recorder and I was very involved in ALL that.

Then I studied Comparative Religions after I finished Economics.
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Old 11-22-2010, 02:19 PM   #134
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A couple things here...
1) Don't state your opinion as fact and the only possible correct answer. Don't just say, I'm a Christian, I believe in Jesus Christ as the savior & the Bible is the only true account of God because some of the writings in it are provable through archealogical findings.

That's popycock. It's your opinion and it does not disprove anybody else's religion. If you're going to discuss this, do some research, state some proven facts and make your point.

Other religions fall in line with archealogicl findings too. Christianity was forced down the world's throats in the dark ages which is why it was so widely accepted as correct. Had it not been for the crusades spreading Christianity and forcing it upon others, the world might be worshipping the Greek or Roman gods to this day. Right now, Muslims are on the front line with their missionary evangelism. When they kill all the non-believers or foce their religion on the rest of the world like the Christians did, will all of the sudden THAT become the one true religion?

2) As a Christian, what is going to happen to you after you die if you are wrong? What if Jesus was just a prophet of another God but he had a Messiah complex (ever see The Life of Brian)? If Christians are wrong, and they face their maker in a day of judgement, and the God says to them, "why were you so judgemental and not accept others' religions? Why did you not believe in me?" Then, what's going to happen?
Read some of my refutations on why Christianity has held through time. I will not re-post what I have already discussed. You ask me to do some research, well it has been done over and over again. Again check my replies in earlier post then we will continue.

You cannot disprove a divine creators existence based on his fallen creation. Nothing done during the dark ages (crusades) was biblical.

Don't try to attack my character without knowing who I am or where I've been. You assume way too much.

I am not stating my opinion as fact but as credible source.
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Old 11-22-2010, 03:55 PM   #135
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Heres a real good idea, why don't we all just wait till we dia and ask?
Cause I'll tell ya what, their either is or isn't a God, and visa versa there either is or isn't a devil
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Old 11-23-2010, 03:27 AM   #136
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This is going to be my last post in this thread, here's my full disclosure: raised Catholic, I was an altar boy, went to catechism every Saturday. I won't get into the Catholic thing, but it was creepy. First Confession, one of the most terriffying moments of my childhood. By high school rebelled and refused to go.

Mid twentys I spent a lot of time in Jamaica and hung out with Rastafarians. They believe Haile Selassie, emperor of Ethiopia was the second coming of Christ. And it's all backed up in the bible. He was the direct descendant of King Soloman and the Queen of Sheba. He called himself the Conquering Lion from the tribe of Judah mentioned in the book of revelations. Listen to his speech to the U.N., which Bob Marley turned into lyrics for his song "War". Was Selassie the the second coming of Christ? I don't know. I believe he was a prophet.

I attended Saddleback Church in Orange County when Rick Warren was preaching in the El Toro high school gymnasium. I had lunch with Rick Warren when he welcomed new members with his "Saddleback 101" course. Saddleback Church is now a huge mega-church.

Now my church is anywhere I'm praising, discussing, or "reasoning" as the Rastas call it,
the glory of life, with one or more persons. Or by myself, with God.
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Old 11-23-2010, 09:01 AM   #137
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Read some of my refutations on why Christianity has held through time. I will not re-post what I have already discussed. You ask me to do some research, well it has been done over and over again. Again check my replies in earlier post then we will continue.


Don't try to attack my character without knowing who I am or where I've been. You assume way too much.

I am not stating my opinion as fact but as credible source.
Unless your are Jesus' mother, father or brother, you are NOT a credible source. You were not there (were you) and your opinion is based on what you've read and how you were raised. My point is that Christianity is full of holes just like other religions. There are no living credible sources. Man has stuck his hand into the biblical writings & teachings to the point that it is tainted and can not be trusted as fact other than on blind faith.

And if you don't think man has tainted history, read ANY of the history textbooks from the 20th century. Up until the late 90s, they are full of misinformation written by white people who failed to recognize many of the historical acomplishments of anybody who wasn't white.

If Christopher Columbus discovered America yet there were Indians here too, how did the Indians get here? Did CC bring them over?

Who really invented the steam boat, the cotton gin... ?


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You cannot disprove a divine creators existence based on his fallen creation. Nothing done during the dark ages (crusades) was biblical.
I don't know what kind of "reading between the lines" or what you're smoking to pull this out of any of my posts. I never said that God doesn't exist. I never said that because the "devil" exists, God doesn't. Have another cup of coffee, adjust your spectacles, take a deep breath and read what others are posting before you respond.

AND... the crusades were biblical in the essence that they were carried out under the guise of spreading Christianity. Even though we all know it was all about using the fear of God to control/govern the people. They didn't act biblically, torturing and killing non-believers, but they sure did it in Jesus Christ's name.
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:38 PM   #138
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Soonercamp, the more I read your posts (as you suggested) the more of a self-rightous, blinded blowhard you seem.

You state that the mistakes in the Koran mean that it can't be the true religion. But, you mention the "minor" inconsistancies/mistakes in the bible are not of consequence and don't discount it as the true word of God. You also said that you believe the bible is the word of God but also say that the new testament can't be proven as the word of God.

And you don't have any common sense either. When boasting about how self-rightous you are by taking a job in the ministry, you state that your current job doesn't pay even a fraction of your previous job... OF COURSE IT DOES! Even if you work for free, you're making 0/100 of your previous salary!

It's people like you who hurt the cause of their religion the more you talk about it because you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You condemn other's religions because of mistakes but try to sweep the mistakes of the bible under the rug.

Maybe I've misread your posts or am taking them too literally. Your arguments for Christianity just aren't adding up. I'll look through them in more detail when I have more time. I will send my apologies if I've mis-spoken due to not understanding your posts. But at this time, I think you'd do Christianity a lot more good if you just stopped posting.
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Old 11-23-2010, 12:59 PM   #139
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Unless your are Jesus' mother, father or brother, you are NOT a credible source. You were not there (were you) and your opinion is based on what you've read and how you were raised. My point is that Christianity is full of holes just like other religions. There are no living credible sources. Man has stuck his hand into the biblical writings & teachings to the point that it is tainted and can not be trusted as fact other than on blind faith.

And if you don't think man has tainted history, read ANY of the history textbooks from the 20th century. Up until the late 90s, they are full of misinformation written by white people who failed to recognize many of the historical acomplishments of anybody who wasn't white.

If Christopher Columbus discovered America yet there were Indians here too, how did the Indians get here? Did CC bring them over?

Who really invented the steam boat, the cotton gin... ?

I don't know what kind of "reading between the lines" or what you're smoking to pull this out of any of my posts. I never said that God doesn't exist. I never said that because the "devil" exists, God doesn't. Have another cup of coffee, adjust your spectacles, take a deep breath and read what others are posting before you respond.

AND... the crusades were biblical in the essence that they were carried out under the guise of spreading Christianity. Even though we all know it was all about using the fear of God to control/govern the people. They didn't act biblically, torturing and killing non-believers, but they sure did it in Jesus Christ's name.
I'm done with this reasoning since it obviously has no grounds here. You yourself are stating things and have no references or sources. I have given mine from much earlier in this thread with many facts.

Even his brother didn't think he was the Christ until later on in Jesus' ministry. So, his family wasn't all on board until later. We have eye witness testimony that holds well. People have been convicted in our court system with much less than what the bible gives us for his resurrection.

I rejected Jesus and his claims before I believed so don't lecture me on my upbringing.

Honestly, I'm about done with this. I am open to a debate but you keep attacking me and not just the God I serve.
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:06 PM   #140
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Soonercamp, the more I read your posts (as you suggested) the more of a self-rightous, blinded blowhard you seem.

You state that the mistakes in the Koran mean that it can't be the true religion. But, you mention the "minor" inconsistancies/mistakes in the bible are not of consequence and don't discount it as the true word of God. You also said that you believe the bible is the word of God but also say that the new testament can't be proven as the word of God.

And you don't have any common sense either. When boasting about how self-rightous you are by taking a job in the ministry, you state that your current job doesn't pay even a fraction of your previous job... OF COURSE IT DOES! Even if you work for free, you're making 0/100 of your previous salary!

It's people like you who hurt the cause of their religion the more you talk about it because you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You condemn other's religions because of mistakes but try to sweep the mistakes of the bible under the rug.

Maybe I've misread your posts or am taking them too literally. Your arguments for Christianity just aren't adding up. I'll look through them in more detail when I have more time. I will send my apologies if I've mis-spoken due to not understanding your posts. But at this time, I think you'd do Christianity a lot more good if you just stopped posting.
Wow, you have truly mis-interpreted what I was saying in those posts. I boast in nothing but Christ and if I came across as self-righteous I apologize that wasn't my intent.

And I would never say the New Testament couldn't be proven as God's word. Again that wasn't my context.

I honestly don't know what to say if you are going to skew my words without knowing it's intent.
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:22 PM   #141
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I just had to post about the other comment about native americasns , remote tribes, etc getting a free ride to heaven just because they havent ever heard or been offered jesus. So basically since because Ive had the pleasure of someone trying to convert me and I refused, I go to hell, yet a native american serial killer and rapist can go to heaven because he hasnt been offered.

So what Im getting out of this is heaven is full of self righteous christians and native american serial killer rapists , no? Doesnt sound like a very fun place.

Plus I hear there are a lot of rocky 4 x 4 trails in the barren landscapes of hell. Give me a jeep and send me to hell, Ill have fun forever.
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:43 PM   #142
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if this is going to become a religion based pissing match, i am locking this thread. cool it or it will be my pleasure to lock it.
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:49 PM   #143
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I don't know why the moderators are so concerned with forums concerning Religion or Politics. They have just as many wrong answers as the other forums. Maybe even less wrong answers.
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:53 PM   #144
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I just had to post about the other comment about native americasns , remote tribes, etc getting a free ride to heaven just because they havent ever heard or been offered jesus. So basically since because Ive had the pleasure of someone trying to convert me and I refused, I go to hell, yet a native american serial killer and rapist can go to heaven because he hasnt been offered.

So what Im getting out of this is heaven is full of self righteous christians and native american serial killer rapists , no? Doesnt sound like a very fun place.

Plus I hear there are a lot of rocky 4 x 4 trails in the barren landscapes of hell. Give me a jeep and send me to hell, Ill have fun forever.
That's not what that means at all. The bible says, all have an inherent sense of who God is and if they haven't had the chance to read his words given to us non-the-less they can live Godly lives. (John 14:6 NIV) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." but there are many cases that we see that just because some didn't get to know Jesus they still got to heaven. I mean how does the old testament people get into heaven?

Job had faith that his Redeemer existed and that He would one day stand upon the earth. In other words he had faith that God would send His perfect lamb to die for Job's sins. Even though these people did not know what Jesus' name was or was going to be, they still had faith and trusted God to redeem them. So they were saved just like we are today, by faith, not by works. Now the Law did have something to do with their salvation, but not in the way most people think. The people were attesting to their faith by following the Law that God commanded them to follow. If they had refused to follow the Law then they would have been saying they no longer had faith in God and no longer believed He would deliver them. I believe that is still true today. When a person goes back into sin and does not follow Christ they are in effect saying they no longer have faith in Him. But that is a different discussion.

First we must look at the question of whether a person can know God without hearing about Him from someone else:

(Romans 1:20 NIV) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

We see that no one has an excuse. Now if no one has an excuse but yet not everyone has heard of Jesus Christ that would make me think that there is a way to do what the people in the Old Testament did, believe in God and serve Him, even without knowing who Jesus is.

(Romans 15:21 NIV) "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

A missionary visited a tribe up in the mountains of a remote region of Asia near India. The missionary was a white man and the tribes people were dark brown. They had been isolated and had never seen a white man before. The missionary hired another native from a surrounding village to lead him to this tribe. When he arrived the villagers got very excited. When he asked the guide to tell him what was happening he was told that they wanted to know if he was the one who was going to give them "the Book?" He asked what book they were talking about and he heard a story that gave him goose bumps.

The villagers had handed down from generation to generation the legend that one day a white man (remember they had never seen a white man before) would come and give them a book which would tell them how to be reconciled to God. Now they had another name for God, which I can't remember right now, but their legend said that they used to know God, but had become separated from Him and needed someone to help them gain that relationship back again. For generations they had had faith that one day God would send a white man to them with a book that would explain what they had to do to be reconciled with God. Of course the missionary showed them the Bible and taught them about Jesus Christ.

Now here is the question. What happened to those who died before this missionary arrived to give them the gospel? Remember how the Old Testament Saints were saved; by having faith in God to send a redeemer to reconcile them to Him. Isn't that what these people had faith in too, even if it was stated a little differently?
There is a bunch of references I could give but it would just clog this up even more.

I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I claim to speak for God, but I do think I understand His nature because He has showed it to us in His word. Therefore I believe my view is consistent with His nature and with Scripture. No matter what, I know that God is fair and loving to His creation.
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Old 11-23-2010, 02:14 PM   #145
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his words?

and yet mistranslations have occurred. ie, red sea should have been "reed sea", thus changing, explaiining and demystifying the "exodus". science has explained the seven plagues, no divine intervention. one needs to read other jewish texts from the same era and study their literary style to understand the bible.
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Old 11-23-2010, 03:52 PM   #146
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and yet mistranslations have occurred. ie, red sea should have been "reed sea", thus changing, explaiining and demystifying the "exodus". science has explained the seven plagues, no divine intervention. one needs to read other jewish texts from the same era and study their literary style to understand the bible.
The translation Sea of Reeds is given as an alternate to Red Sea in many Study Bible foot notes for the Hebrew Yam Suph. Since reeds only grow in fresh water, scholars have looked for centuries for a fresh water lake the Israelites could have crossed and of course none exists.

But a more accurate translation of the Hebrew word would be seaweed and of course this grows in salt water. So the Hebrew phrase Yam Suph really doesn’t mean Red Sea or Sea of Reeds, it means Sea of Seaweed. The name Red Sea probably stems from its proximity to Edom, the land occupied by the descendants of Esau, whose name in Hebrew means Red.

And as far as science having the best and clear understanding on the Exodus is highly debatable. I have read all too many topics and books on this subject for both sides. Conclusion...there is no conclusion. My conclusion, I serve a big God.
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Old 11-23-2010, 05:52 PM   #147
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soonercamp

wrong, reed sea has been found, but after 2000 years it has been dried up. artifacts from the time of moses have been found in this area. now, how do you suppose they got there. instead of parting the red sea, it seems like moses waded across the edge of a shallow body of water. as i said, the bible tells a story, the meanings of words change and are lost over a period of time.
you really need to look at other hebrew literature from the period to understand style and intent of the bible. pay attention to the details and take it literally and you will never get your points across. many believe it is the message that comes through that is important. study of catholic/ christian religions and trace them back far enough and you will find it is mish mosh of combined smaller religions combined.
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:07 PM   #148
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Wow, you have truly mis-interpreted what I was saying in those posts. I boast in nothing but Christ and if I came across as self-righteous I apologize that wasn't my intent.

I honestly don't know what to say if you are going to skew my words without knowing it's intent.
soonercamp,
I understand your intent. I understand what you're trying to do. Like all good Christians, you're trying very hard to fulfill the great commission of spreading the word of Jesus Christ as Lord & savior.

My posts are a test for you to evaluate how well you responded to my posts. You are trying hard to do a good thing but you have to make sure that you are always true to the cause & always react/respond as Jesus would.

The biggest, most important thing you need to understand is that no matter how much you try to convince others that the Jesus is Lord, basing your standpoint on the bible and discounting others' religions is not going to convert anybody. You should leave other religions out of this. Trying to prove your brand of religion at the expense of other people's religions will only anger people and make them hate christians even more.

Please continue your commission but choose your words very carefully. My posts should serve as an example of just how easily your words can be misinterpreted by others.

And lastly, everybody should have an open mind, including you. I was raised in the Catholic church in the "bible-belt" of the USA. This means that religion was force fed to us in the grand Catholic fashion; "that's the way it is, accept it." I've had to deal with too many deacons, priests and bishops who couldn't answer some of the simplest questions. They weren't open to people in the church questioning the Catholic religion or even the concept of faith. That is why I took exception to your posts with the seeming closed-minded attitude. You should encourage others to think for themselves but guide them to you way of thinking.

Good luck in your crusade. Those who try the hardest are sure to meet with the most resistance!
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:17 AM   #149
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There you go, this is an unwinnable debate. No solid proof on either side. A pissing match it is. A sad way of putting it is like with D B COOPER ,will never really know unless you produce a body.
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:10 PM   #150
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soonercamp,
I understand your intent. I understand what you're trying to do. Like all good Christians, you're trying very hard to fulfill the great commission of spreading the word of Jesus Christ as Lord & savior.

My posts are a test for you to evaluate how well you responded to my posts. You are trying hard to do a good thing but you have to make sure that you are always true to the cause & always react/respond as Jesus would.

The biggest, most important thing you need to understand is that no matter how much you try to convince others that the Jesus is Lord, basing your standpoint on the bible and discounting others' religions is not going to convert anybody. You should leave other religions out of this. Trying to prove your brand of religion at the expense of other people's religions will only anger people and make them hate christians even more.

Please continue your commission but choose your words very carefully. My posts should serve as an example of just how easily your words can be misinterpreted by others.

And lastly, everybody should have an open mind, including you. I was raised in the Catholic church in the "bible-belt" of the USA. This means that religion was force fed to us in the grand Catholic fashion; "that's the way it is, accept it." I've had to deal with too many deacons, priests and bishops who couldn't answer some of the simplest questions. They weren't open to people in the church questioning the Catholic religion or even the concept of faith. That is why I took exception to your posts with the seeming closed-minded attitude. You should encourage others to think for themselves but guide them to you way of thinking.

Good luck in your crusade. Those who try the hardest are sure to meet with the most resistance!
All sounds good to me except when someone brings to me that Christianity is just like any other religion and saying it's the same as Islam, etc. I am going to plead Christianity's case to defend it. And That's what I did. I was not stating or saying in any fashion that mine is better but purely building a case of defense out of love.

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