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Old 10-21-2012, 08:29 AM   #31
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Terrific discussion! I'm reading with great interest. Its like a great tv show, can't wait for the next episode.
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:10 PM   #32
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:23 PM   #33
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The Inspiration of the Bible #1

These excepts are from the current Catechism of the Catholic Church. It was the first catechism put out by the Church for the entire Church in over 400 years. (There have been smaller catechisms to make the faith simpler to citizens of different countries... such as, in the United States, we had the Baltimore Catechism which was specifically designed for American children during the late 1800s.)

The quotes teach what the Church teaches about Holy Scripture. There are a lot of foolish things that are said to be Catholic Church teachings about Holy Scripture out there, but this is from the "horse's mouth."

I broke this up into two parts to make is easier to read and not so lengthy.

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Inspiration and Truth of Sacred Scripture (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”
“For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.”

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. “To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.”

107 The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living.” If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open (our) minds to understand the Scriptures.”
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:50 PM   #34
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The Inspiration of the Bible #2

The Holy Spirit, Interpreter of Scripture

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.

110 In order to discover the sacred author’s intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking, and narrating then current. “For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression.”

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. “Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written.”
The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.

112 1. Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture.” Different as the books which comprise it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God’s plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover...

113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”...

114 3. Be attentive to the anology of faith. By “analogy of faith” we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.


A side note...

Over the past five hundred years, many have read the Bible and personally interpreted it to mean "start your own religion, interpret scripture anyway you want, all interpretations are equal, etc."

St. Francis of Assisi had a different approach. He was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit to read the Holy Bible and two passages "jumped out at him." They inspired St. Francis to start a new religious order WITHIN the Catholic Church. His order (the Franciscans) came to the Holy Church when it was falling apart at the seams. God used him to remind the Church what was important. He literally (by the grace of Christ) "rebuilt" the Catholic Church from the ground up.

The history of the Church will show it parallels the history of mankind in many ways, with its "ups and downs", its "dark moments and its bright moments." But there is one thing for certain... countries will rise and fall, but the Catholic Church will keep going. Why? Because God protects it. He keeps it one Faith. He keeps it going. He takes our human frailty and the miserable wretches we are and makes it work BECAUSE HE TRULY IS GOD.

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Old 10-26-2012, 11:24 PM   #35
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While I can't quote scriptures, I do still have a very strong faith.

And like klkb I believe God knows what is in your heart. Though as Humans I think forgiveness is a quality we have yet to master even when it's self-forgiveness.

Now, while sin is sin is sin, am I wrong in thinking that I remember Eve had the added punishment of bearing children for her part in the apple eating? So wouldn't that go to show that her "sin" was greater because her punishment was more? Although this punishment should be viewed as a blessing instead because there is a magical moment when you see that little face and all the pain is forgotten.

Anyway, I doubt there is a person among us without sin and in the grand plan it's where you go after the sin that matters. So, overall it's what in heart and how you live your life.
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Old 10-27-2012, 08:07 AM   #36
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The teaching of Israel in the Old Testament, carried on through the Church since Christ walked the Earth is that because of Adam and Eve's sin (Original Sin), the gates of Heaven were closed to all mankind, Eve would have to bare children in agony and be subject to Adam, and Adam would have to work and toil to produce his livelihood. (I recently read this, but I believe the meaning is correct but not the actual words.) The gates of Heaven being closed is far greater than any child birthing experience if the ultimate goal is to get to Heaven.

Of course, God knows our hearts better than we do... and because of that, we will never truly know whether we are forgiven for our sin or not UNLESS we look at His arrangement He created to "forgive our sins." This arrangement began in the desert of the Old Testament with the Jewish sacrifices to atone for their sin through the priesthood. Leviticus, Numbers, Joshua are all books of the Old Testament that show a priesthood installed by God, their relationship to the people of Israel, their procedures for atoning for the people's sins. (Joshua shows a little of this but more about God not being a "warm and fuzzy" kind of person...) This tradition was alive and well when Christ walked this earth. He gave the apostles the power to forgive sins and this "power" was passed on to their successors, all the way to present day priests.

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Old 10-27-2012, 10:57 PM   #37
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The teaching of Israel in the Old Testament, carried on through the Church since Christ walked the Earth is that because of Adam and Eve's sin (Original Sin), the gates of Heaven were closed to all mankind, Eve would have to bare children in agony and be subject to Adam, and Adam would have to work and toil to produce his livelihood. (I recently read this, but I believe the meaning is correct but not the actual words.) The gates of Heaven being closed is far greater than any child birthing experience if the ultimate goal is to get to Heaven.

Of course, God knows our hearts better than we do... and because of that, we will never truly know whether we are forgiven for our sin or not UNLESS we look at His arrangement He created to "forgive our sins." This arrangement began in the desert of the Old Testament with the Jewish sacrifices to atone for their sin through the priesthood. Leviticus, Numbers, Joshua are all books of the Old Testament that show a priesthood installed by God, their relationship to the people of Israel, their procedures for atoning for the people's sins. (Joshua shows a little of this but more about God not being a "warm and fuzzy" kind of person...) This tradition was alive and well when Christ walked this earth. He gave the apostles the power to forgive sins and this "power" was passed on to their successors, all the way to present day priests.

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I'm going to look for the white smoke billowing from your chimney in a few minutes.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:27 AM   #38
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I'm going to look for the white smoke billowing from your chimney in a few minutes.
??
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:50 AM   #39
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white smoke shows that new pope has been chosen
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:42 AM   #40
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All I know is this, I am a sinner and I have been forgiven. Thank you, Lord for your son.
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btw.....great thread!
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:25 PM   #41
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I have to commend all who have participated in this discussion. Its very rare to have a thread concerning religious concepts that lasts past 5 posts before taking a left hand turn. All posts have been respectful, insightful and a great window in to different beliefs. I appreciate the information, especially from those who took the time to really research and give reference material.
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:47 PM   #42
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Fantastic thread. I hope this is seen as constructive.

I find a few things relating to this conversation interesting:

1. The notion of a waivering God. The old testament is a very obvious early mankind history, that is not for debate. But the codes and values contained within can lead to one conclusion - we were learning how to live together. For example, "eye for an eye" is likely the most common misquote from the Bible. It was never intended to escalate punishment to an equivalent measure, but to limit punishment to an equivalent measure. You can't stab your neighbor for taking your beets, you can only take his. This is the foundation of society. Yet we find a vengeful God, who will blast entire cities from the Earth. Then, all of a sudden, he realises it's lonely in Heaven or the bar is too high, so he sends Christ to make it all a little easier on us - this is after destroying 2 cities and washing the Earth of nearly every man. Every man sinned, and until now you had to be free of sin to walk with God for eternity. Christ made it where any sin you commit can be absolved. Now we can sin and get away with it.

2. Forgiveness as the Christians or Catholics teach. If we are to follow these teachings we must confess our sins to God via man, then ask the forgiveness of Jesus and God for them and have our spirit washed clean. John the Baptist taught this (baptism of sin) before Jesus was old enough to. Jesus' deciples asked him to "teach them to pray, as John had done with his diciples". Jesus then recited the Lords Prayer (there are a couple interpretations of this, whether "as John had done" was meant to be "similar to" or "exactly as"). So JTB was waisting his time? If Jesus hadn't been sent to forgive our sins baptism was just wierd bathing.

3. These questions made me ask my Pastor some deep questions. First, what about native peoples? Are they punished for their ignorance? He told me, as well as my father who attended a religious college, that they should've know better. They should be able to live by the laws of God without specific instruction of Baptism, and if they did they would be rewarded in Heaven. Yet, somehow, I am more succeptable to sin and Damnation. I need to be cleansed of sin at birth or early childhood, in a teaching that predates its teacher, to walk with our Father? So virtuous monks can get to Heaven, except they are blasphemous - and don't ask forgiveness for it. A God that would punish a man who got the moral right but the story wrong is no god I will serve. This is when I decided the semantics of man are not adequate to explain the composure of God.

The Bible is not a book. It is an encyclopedia of books, written by various authors, over a decent span of time. Someone later decided which ones qualified as cannon and which did not. They were again revised by KJ in he 1500s, which did enable the masses to become educated in biblical scripture, but likely changed many details of the Scripture. A good and bad.

In relation to the Catholic/abortion bumper sticker, wih Guantanamo and foreign CIA detention centers, can you pay US taxes and call yourself Christian knowing you willfully fund the torture of man in direct conflict with his teachings?

For the record, I was raised in a Church of Christ every Sunday all day, then "converted" to Southern Baptist as a young teen (big difference, lol). I have walked independently of orginized religion but with the Lord in my own respect, mainly through nature, for the past 10 years.

Take life, for instance. I have a good bit of medical knowledge, and I know how a lot of the pieces attach. I can take soft tissue and hook it all up, start the mechanical functions, hook up the electric impulses, and nothing will ever happen. But if someone in front of me collapses and I do the exact same thing they can live, or even come back to life. An assembly of organs is not life, so what is? Is that lifeforce itself not God? Or is it the ability to grant life, with another, that is God? Something no person can do alone - assemble those organs and soft tissue, but give it life as well...

Thoughts?
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:18 PM   #43
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KikB,

You are something! White smoke... I hope you have a great weekend!

Take care,
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:26 PM   #44
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BlueridgeYJ,

You brought up some very interesting points about many things... I want to answer but I am not sure if I would do more harm than good. All judgements involve a "fine line." The point we come closer to that line, the cloudier it gets but at some point, the line has been crossed and action must be taken. I understand a lot of what you said, because I held those same beliefs at certain times in my life. Sometimes, with all of what goes on in all the churches, it is hard to figure it out. Sometimes it seems to be a lost cause.

With me, I prayed that God show me the truth. I prayed that if Christ is the Son of God, that He show me. At some point later in life, I came to believe Christ is the Son of God and He is the truth itself. In my search for the truth, the Truth brought me to Him.

I hope you have a fantastic weekend and can pardon my not answering your questions appropriately.

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Old 10-28-2012, 08:41 PM   #45
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I have to commend all who have participated in this discussion. Its very rare to have a thread concerning religious concepts that lasts past 5 posts before taking a left hand turn. All posts have been respectful, insightful and a great window in to different beliefs. I appreciate the information, especially from those who took the time to really research and give reference material.
Yes.Thats the reason I titled it the way I did.Im thankful for everyone who has given there advice and input.I dont think I can be anymore remorceful(spelling??) about my sin and Im sure the Lord knows that.I have to trust he has forgiven me.I love this thread.I hope it continues for a while.Thanks everyone.
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:36 PM   #46
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Organized religion is a scam. It's all about getting your money and your energies. One's beliefs should be personal and inward.....not "in your face" like all the organized ones.
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:21 AM   #47
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Organized religion is a scam. It's all about getting your money and your energies. One's beliefs should be personal and inward.....not "in your face" like all the organized ones.
Buddism is about money???

Don't confuse all religion with those you have been exposed to in American culture.

I agree that our journeys with God must be selfguided. (And that nearly all religious institutions in this capatalist society are greatly interested in your contributions)
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:24 AM   #48
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Yes.Thats the reason I titled it the way I did.Im thankful for everyone who has given there advice and input.I dont think I can be anymore remorceful(spelling??) about my sin and Im sure the Lord knows that.I have to trust he has forgiven me.I love this thread.I hope it continues for a while.Thanks everyone.
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Organized religion is a scam. It's all about getting your money and your energies. One's beliefs should be personal and inward.....not "in your face" like all the organized ones.
Aaaaand here is our downward turn!!!!!!

OP was asking nothing about the business operations of organized religion, but how God views sin. Lets not derail and ruin a good thread.
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:10 PM   #49
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Now I know religion can lead to a heated debate,which I dont want.I was flipping thru stations & heard a preacher or priest,not sure which one saying that all sins are the same.That if you break one sin its the same as breaking another.Even asked someone who is very into religion & she agreed.So stealing a cookie is the same as murdering someone?? How can it be??
That is a question that may very from one belief to the next. I can only answer from a Catholic standpoint. In Catholism there are venial and mortal sins. Venial as in stealing a cookie. Mortal as in I murdered someone. To commit either the person has to know the action is a sin and do it anyway. If guilty of a mortal sin you are not allowded to take holy Communion until you go to confession. We believed any sin can be forgiven at any time by God, but you don't know for sure unless going through confession. This belief is based on Jesus telling Peter that those sins released on Earth are released in heaven. There is more to it, but I hope this helps. Feel free to ask if you want to know more.
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:54 PM   #50
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The Old Testament says," Ye shall be judged by backwards and shall judgement be made"
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:18 PM   #51
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I think the simple answer to your question is, yes all sin is the same. Not equal in severity, but equally evil. We should abhor all sin, great or small. Thinking that any sin is "more okay" than another is wrong. Just like a single chip of paint or a large dent in the hood of your jeep, any imperfection is just that. So in that way, all sin is the same, because one sin no matter how big or small, keeps us from being perfect. Every single one of us. I don't think the argument was meant to be extended beyond that. There is such a thing as stretching an argument too far.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:06 AM   #52
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The Old Testament says," Ye shall be judged by backwards and shall judgement be made"
It also says after I have my Hebrew slave for 7 years I have to let him go, but if he finds a wife while my slave I get to keep her, and any children they bear. Gods law.

The Old Testament cannot be taken word for word.

As far as sin, the general non-Catholic Christian view is that all men sin. Every one. That is what seperates us from Jesus - he is the only "man" with clean hands. The only way to have your sins forgiven is to first ask Jesus into your heart as your true Lord and Savior, through Baptism, usually in early childhood. Then, anything you ask Jesus' forgiveness for you will receive it, so long as you are repentful. There is very little difference in sin with this school of thought.

I once asked my preacher if Kurt Cobain could've made it into Heaven as he began to find Jesus at the end of his life. While most agree that you cannot repent suicide (because you die before you can ask forgiveness), he actually told me if Love for Jesus was in his heart, Jesus will welcome him into the Kingdom.

Problem I have is this:
I found the absolute love of my life. She is beautiful, smart, funny, educated - all the things I ever wanted in a partner. Except she stopped feeling that way about me YEARS ago. At night, she is still in my dreams. In the day, she occupies my thoughts. If all I want is to spend my life wih her, she is obviously the one I want by my side in the Kingdom. But she doesn't want me by hers, so how can I find happiness in eternity without the one I love the most? Who gets to pick? Doesn't sound very Heavenly to me...
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:11 AM   #53
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Organized religion is a scam. It's all about getting your money and your energies. One's beliefs should be personal and inward.....not "in your face" like all the organized ones.
There was a group of Christian students at Reed College who set up a confession booth on campus. The non-Christian students began to filter in, one by one, mostly as a joke and out of curiosity. There was a twist when they went in, though. Instead of being asked their sins, the students who had set up the confessional began to confess to them. They laid it out completely and honestly, how the church had fallen short, the crusades, the bs politics, the wig-wearing tv evangelists asking for money, everything. They asked for forgiveness from the secular community for the shortcomings of the church. I think we Christians could learn a lot from those students. Many times I get a glimpse of what the secular community sees when they hear the word Christian, and it shames me. I'd prefer to be known as a follower of the teachings of Jesus. Most of the people I've met in churches want to do the right thing, they want to feed the poor, etc., but really don't know how. We're all broken people in our own way, trying to do the best we can.
In my church, I happen to know that other than building maintenance, and operating costs, my tithe money goes to several good causes. We send backpacks of food home to kids who wouldn't eat otherwise. We drill wells and buy livestock for our adopted sister church in Mozambique, Africa. Several members go to nursing homes to spend time with residents who would otherwise be alone, just to name a few. Do we have problems? Of course, we're all human. But, we do the best we can...
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:51 PM   #54
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Im really enjoying this thread.I know this sounds like a question a a child would ask but how does God know whats in my heart and what Im feeling? I guess his power is just that powerful.I guess we will never understand it.
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