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Old 12-19-2012, 10:23 PM   #121
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Same in my area, and I'd wager a majority of America.
Agreed. Absolutely.

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Old 12-19-2012, 10:30 PM   #122
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I teach a local long-distance marksmanship class every month for people who want to learn to be a better long gun shooter.
I mite have to hit you up for a class or two.

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Old 12-19-2012, 10:47 PM   #123
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I think that is cool that you do the classes too. I was raised and taught how to shoot, and also shoot competitively with both pistol and rifle for around 5-6 years. People need to know more about shooting a gun than just point and pull.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:58 PM   #124
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I mite have to hit you up for a class or two.
Anytime bud. But I assume you already know what you're doing. We could do a little Army sniper / Air Force sniper cross training if you'd like...
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:31 AM   #125
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I am still curious as to why people rush to buy semi auto rifles. The trend is obvious and as mentioned, it's almost difficult to get lowers now. I understand that you can obviously take more shots with a semi, but for the home defense crowd, are they planning on taking on a gang of armed house thieves or what? I can proficiently shoot a bolt action or pump action firearm with accuracy, and at nearly the same rate I can shoot a semi auto. You still have to pick and choose your shots.

I feel like the people who are not buying the AR platform for the sheer joy of firing a semi auto weapon that can be super customized etc., and are buying them for fear of not being able to get a gun for defense, are misinformed. I would choose a large caliber bolt action rifle over a smaller .223 semi any day. It's almost as if folks are buying them just because they heard Big Brother is going to say no soon. In Pa, you can't hunt with any semi auto, so the AR is either for defense or target shooting. I guess that explains my view of the rifle a little more. I want a gun I can actually shoot things other than paper with. How many rifles do you guys think are actually used in home defense yearly? I would bet a negligible percent. I think a pistol would be a much smarter purchase for home defense.

I like the gun view here and WF and really enjoying reading everything you all have to say. I have several friends who build and shoot semi autos, but I have never really felt the need, or had the resources to dump into one.
A 'large caliber bolt action" would be a poor choice for home defense for most people. Think penetration and barrel length. The accesories that can be mounted on an AR can be a plus. A light can allow you to see the assailant and blind him at the same time. If 2 or 3 break in, I might get the first, then the rest will leave or take cover. I think I would then hunker down instead of hunt them. I certainly wouldn't want to run out of ammo. I would definitely want superior fire power in any such situation.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:38 AM   #126
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US Constitution says they can't pass a law and make what you have had already a crime. No confiscation. That is why the Reagan\Hughes bill allows all machine guns prior to it's signage to stay, and is the only reason you can still own select fire. This is also why NJ just did a massive gun "buyback" from the citizens.

The conversation (politically) is future sales; moot point. As mentioned, there are 300mil guns in the US.

I own semiauto weaponry for target shooting and defense of my locality. I will not wait for another man to defend my home, whomever the attacker(s) may be.

“The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.” (Thomas Jefferson Papers p. 334, 1950)

And really a 9mm carbine is a great HD weapon. Good punch, manuverable, won't overpenetrate, isn't easily stolen by your kid, etc.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:47 AM   #127
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A 'large caliber bolt action" would be a poor choice for home defense for most people. Think penetration and barrel length. The accesories that can be mounted on an AR can be a plus. A light can allow you to see the assailant and blind him at the same time. If 2 or 3 break in, I might get the first, then the rest will leave or take cover. I think I would then hunker down instead of hunt them. I certainly wouldn't want to run out of ammo. I would definitely want superior fire power in any such situation.
Maybe you don't have the same home as me, haha. I have the only home for around 1/2 mile around, clear line of sight, on top of a hill. #1 home defense is a pistol all day long. No matter what gun you are shooting inside your home, my concern is shooting to kill, not if I end up with lead in my sofa, but I see your point. I would take my .243 or 25 WSSM that we typically use for deer and shoot open sights. All day. I agree with you about the limiting barrel length but the rifles I named aren't too long or clumsy, at all, and about the perks of the AR, but for the 1 grand plus it costs to buy and build one, the guns I have now are plenty sufficient for my needs. Taking a .25 to the chest wouldn't be fun. I have blown multiple body parts off of deer. In the case of 2 or 3 guys I can pump action shoot all day. The time it takes me to pump, I will be spending acquiring and sighting my next target. Chances are they aren't going to be standing around for me to have target practice. You still have to take careful shots. I would rather shoot 3 well placed shots than 10 quick fire - hope I hit them shots. If I really wanted to take them out I would just use the 12 gauge.

I guess my thoughts are one well placed shot is all I need. Why waste time and money when I am already capable of that. I am all for the AR15 and think it's awesome. If I had superfluous amounts of money laying around I would have one in my collection.

I think we all take too lightly the actual process of taking a human life as well. Pulling the trigger is a big decision to make. I know I would never willingly choose to have to do it. When someone is in your home in the dark, do you want to be slamming multiple shots into them before you know what's going on? I feel like ill informed shooters are going to be much more likely to do this. We have all heard the horror stories of family members shooting one another for mistaken burglars. I am all for gun rights but we all need to take responsibility for our actions and prepare ourselves if we are going to put ourselves in the position where we have a gun and could take a like.

I know you guys don't need to be preached to, just more or less voicing my thoughts. The AR platform is an awesome HD gun, but not the only weapon capable of doing so, I guess is my point.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:04 PM   #128
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I agree with you Ryan. Notice that I said "most" people. I recognize that not everyone lives in an urban or suburban location. If I owned any weapons , I might have several available to me. AR 15 "type" weapons can come in many different calibers, from the aforementioned 9mm to .22 LR as well as price.

No matter how much training an practice, it would be a very intense situation for a non military trained person to handle. I would think marksmanship would simply go to hell and the ability to put as many rounds as possible in the direction of the bad guy(s) would be extremely important.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:12 PM   #129
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I agree with you Ryan. Notice that I said "most" people. I recognize that not everyone lives in an urban or suburban location. If I owned any weapons , I might have several available to me. AR 15 "type" weapons can come in many different calibers, from the aforementioned 9mm to .22 LR as well as price.

No matter how much training an practice, it would be a very intense situation for a non military trained person to handle. I would think marksmanship would simply go to hell and the ability to put as many rounds as possible in the direction of the bad guy(s) would be extremely important.
That is true, absolutely every word I think you outlined some of the issue I was getting at in your last paragraph. With an AR you are capable of putting as many rounds as possible in their direction. What happens when that turns out to be your neighbors, or your kid coming home late, or someone who was in a car accident and needed to use the phone for emergency. I know it's unlikely, but with a standard rifle I am not pumping shot after shot into someone just because it takes the simple pull of my finger.

I would like to think I would have the ability to stay calm, or as calm as possible in that situation, but as you mentioned there is a huge difference between what you think you can do and what you have been trained to do.

I also know that AR's can shoot basically anything, but didn't want to act like I was trying to target the AR15 specifically.

All this gun talk and I want to go shoot now, lol.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:21 PM   #130
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So since this thread has gone a little off topic from the OP...Ive got a question for you.

So IF an assault weapons ban does go into affect, and it is similar to the ban in the past...if an AR-15 lower is purchased before the ban, would it be exempt from the "ban?"

Also, being in California, how affected would we be by this ban do you think? Since we have the "bullet button" (so Ive heard it called) on the ARs, would our ARs be considered "assault weapons?"

I know no one knows the exact answer, since the laws havent been written up yet...but just trying to stir some conversation.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:27 PM   #131
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Bullets tend to keep going until they strike something that stops them. A number of years ago I was living in a townhouse. The police had been called to the neighbor for the sound of gun shots. The next day I noticed my neighbors window broken as well as the glass to their electric meter.
The police came back to investigate further. 9mm shell casings were found about 150 yards away. After looking closer I found a hole in my siding. We then realized the round went through the corner of my house (two walls) and then into the electric meter on the house next door. The houses were offset, but together.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:37 PM   #132
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Bullets tend to keep going until they strike something that stops them. A number of years ago I was living in a townhouse. The police had been called to the neighbor for the sound of gun shots. The next day I noticed my neighbors window broken as well as the glass to their electric meter.
The police came back to investigate further. 9mm shell casings were found about 150 yards away. After looking closer I found a hole in my siding. We then realized the round went through the corner of my house (two walls) and then into the electric meter on the house next door. The houses were offset, but together.
That is kind of nuts... but completely believable.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:38 PM   #133
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So since this thread has gone a little off topic from the OP...Ive got a question for you.

So IF an assault weapons ban does go into affect, and it is similar to the ban in the past...if an AR-15 lower is purchased before the ban, would it be exempt from the "ban?"

Also, being in California, how affected would we be by this ban do you think? Since we have the "bullet button" (so Ive heard it called) on the ARs, would our ARs be considered "assault weapons?"

I know no one knows the exact answer, since the laws havent been written up yet...but just trying to stir some conversation.
They would be "grandfathered", as they were purchased legally - and would be referred to as "pre-ban". You could (likely) still buy and sell them second hand.

I doubt cali would notice a difference. As it is you guys cant have hicap, pistol grip, vfg, folding stocks, etc. That is the verbage they are likely to use in DC to ban MSRs.

The govt could atempt a forced registration of 300mil guns, but it simply would not work.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:41 PM   #134
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So since this thread has gone a little off topic from the OP...Ive got a question for you.

So IF an assault weapons ban does go into affect, and it is similar to the ban in the past...if an AR-15 lower is purchased before the ban, would it be exempt from the "ban?"

Also, being in California, how affected would we be by this ban do you think? Since we have the "bullet button" (so Ive heard it called) on the ARs, would our ARs be considered "assault weapons?"

I know no one knows the exact answer, since the laws havent been written up yet...but just trying to stir some conversation.
"Bullet button?" What is that?
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:46 PM   #135
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They would be "grandfathered", as they were purchased legally - and would be referred to as "pre-ban". You could (likely) still buy and sell them second hand.
This is what I figured.

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I doubt cali would notice a difference. As it is you guys cant have hicap, pistol grip, vfg, folding stocks, etc. That is the verbage they are likely to use in DC to ban MSRs.
Well that is where I am curious...you can go down to the local gun shop and pick an AR up legally. We cannot have hicap, vfg, etc. However the ARs do come with telescoping stocks (usually), pistol grips, threaded barrels/flash suppressors. I am curious though, if "our" ARs even fall under the "assault weapons" category though due to the bullet button....because technically speaking I believe that makes our magazines "fixed."
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:49 PM   #136
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"Bullet button?" What is that?
I am assuming in other states you can push the mag release to drop the mag out, correct? In California, if I were to go buy an AR, you cannot do this. In the mag release there is a hole...in order to drop the mag, you must put something (tool) in this hole to release it.



http://www.riflegear.com/p-58-ar15-bullet-button.aspx
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:54 PM   #137
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Yea, that is why a new M4 costs 800$ and a 28 year old M16 costs 20,000$. You aren't allowed to buy the first one, only the latter.

I am not up to date on CA law, and do not plan to learn em. Sorry.

Attachment 189315

No pistol grip, folding stock, f/s or m/b, or vfg. Less dangerous then, right? (i cant see it well enough, maybe there is a muzzle brake on there) this and thumbhole stocks made a mockery of the cali no pistol grip law (which I thought still existed, I reckon not though)
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:55 PM   #138
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I am assuming in other states you can push the mag release to drop the mag out, correct? In California, if I were to go buy an AR, you cannot do this. In the mag release there is a hole...in order to drop the mag, you must put something (tool) in this hole to release it.



AR15 Bullet Button
And morons actually think that does anything? If I wanted to I could so easily modify that and still reload just as fast...probably even faster if I make an oversized mag release. ****ing dumba** politicitians
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:56 PM   #139
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So what you're telling me is that buttons are illegal in CA?
Instead of pressing a button, you would stick something into the hole to drop the mag and replace it with another? That takes, what, an additional second or 2?
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:59 PM   #140
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If I read your link correctly it's a felony to attach a button. If a mentally ill individual was going to shoot some place up I can certainly see how they would be concerned with committing a felony in addition to any homicide charges.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:00 PM   #141
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And morons actually think that does anything? If I wanted to I could so easily modify that and still reload just as fast...probably even faster if I make an oversized mag release. ****ing dumba** politicitians
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So what you're telling me is that buttons are illegal in CA?
Instead of pressing a button, you would stick something into the hole to drop the mag and replace it with another? That takes, what, an additional second or 2?
The shell for a 22LR fits that hole snugly and perfectly...not saying I would ever do that though.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:00 PM   #142
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How does that law affect the Mini 14 which has a lever behind the mag as opposed to a button?
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:00 PM   #143
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If I read your link correctly it's a felony to attach a button. If a mentally ill individual was going to shoot some place up I can certainly see how they would be concerned with committing a felony in addition to any homicide charges.
Commifornia has all kinds of cool rules.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:01 PM   #144
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How does that law affect the Mini 14 which has a lever behind the mag as opposed to a button?
A lever button, clearly.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:03 PM   #145
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How does that law affect the Mini 14 which has a lever behind the mag as opposed to a button?
Any of the Mini 14s I have come across in CA, were ranch style...and not on an AR platform. So maybe its illegal to own a Mini 14 converted to an AR platform . Although when they made hicap illegal here, the 20rd (I think) mag got grandfathered in...so maybe if you take an old Mini 14 and put it on an AR platform, you would be exempt...who knows in this crazy ass state.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:03 PM   #146
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A lever button, clearly.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:06 PM   #147
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MD has some wacky laws as well. A Mini 14 with an ATI folding stock is considered regulated and has a 7 day wait, same as a hand gun. A SCAR 17 (also a folding stock) is cash and carry. The reason? It's not on the "list".
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:07 PM   #148
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Any of the Mini 14s I have come across in CA, were ranch style...and not on an AR platform. So maybe its illegal to own a Mini 14 converted to an AR platform .
Different platform all together.

The mini is rotating bolt design adapted from the M1/M14. It is also piston operated.

The AR platform was specifically built to replace the M14, and uses a gas operation to help it achieve upwards of 800rnds a min.

You cannot build a "Mini-AR", but can equip them with folding stocks and pictanny rails, like the ATI stock allows.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:07 PM   #149
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Anyone know of a place that actually has an AR in stock? Looked at Buds and they seem to be cleaned out lol. Pretty much tempted to buy one and just have my FFL hold it until I get back from this deployment. Or even just a lower that I can piece together the rest after.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:08 PM   #150
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MD has some wacky laws as well. A Mini 14 with an ATI folding stock is considered regulated and has a 7 day wait, same as a hand gun. A SCAR 17 (also a folding stock) is cash and carry. The reason? It's not on the "list".
Now THAT is obsurd. At least clearly define what makes it so dangerous!

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