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Old 10-15-2008, 11:40 PM   #1
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Debate 3

I think McCain gave the election away tonight. He didn't do enough to swing it his way.

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Old 10-16-2008, 12:05 AM   #2
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I hope you're wrong.

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Old 10-16-2008, 12:09 AM   #3
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So do I......I may need to look to Canada as well, eh....
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Old 10-16-2008, 04:01 AM   #4
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I didn't see it
did I miss anything special?
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Old 10-16-2008, 04:38 AM   #5
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I actually thought that McCain owned him on the economic questions that Scheiffer asked. Obama's policies just don't jive and John pointed out some very good reasons why.

However I do think that Scheiffer let them spend too much time on the whole "negative campaign" segment. That is just something that people truly just don't give a shit about.
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:10 AM   #6
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Here's what I took away from it. Obama: clear speaker, and use's his words to almost gloss over things if you will, kind of puts his audience in a trance, says lots of good sounding things, but when one reflects back on what he really said there is not a lot there.

Mccain: Jumpy speech, faster pace at times, and not as polished as obama. At some points I got a bit lost, but by the time he was done I understood what he was saying, and his ideas worked for me.

Thus, if we are grading this as how well someone talked then Obama won. If we are grading it on what the power of the idea's where, then McCain won.
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:33 AM   #7
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they're both complete asshats. i cant imagine favoring or even leaning towards one moreso than the other.
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Old 10-16-2008, 02:02 PM   #8
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they're both complete asshats. i cant imagine favoring or even leaning towards one moreso than the other.
Obama WILL take your OHV away.

McCain will not..
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Old 10-16-2008, 02:09 PM   #9
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Obama WILL take your OHV away.

McCain will not..
Has there been talk on either side about OHV?
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Old 10-16-2008, 02:16 PM   #10
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i live out in the country. nobody is taking shit away from me
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Old 10-16-2008, 03:30 PM   #11
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I liked McCain's response to Obama comparing him to Bush.
"I am not President Bush. If you wanted to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago."

Did anyone else think that Obama didn't answer some of the questions?
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:41 PM   #12
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Has there been talk on either side about OHV?
Not specifically, however over the past 50 years every time a democrat has been in office things like the Endangered Species list and other bills of smilar nature end up turning more and more public lands to the "Wilderness" characterization which completely makes it off limits to the motorized public. Also positions such as secretary of the interior and moving down to BLM, Forest Service, etc... are filled with liberals that then hand down policy or theories that lend land managers to closing public lands to motorized access.

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I liked McCain's response to Obama comparing him to Bush.
"I am not President Bush. If you wanted to run against President Bush, you should have run four years ago."

Did anyone else think that Obama didn't answer some of the questions?
I think he always does that.
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Old 10-16-2008, 08:03 PM   #13
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Not specifically, however over the past 50 years every time a democrat has been in office things like the Endangered Species list and other bills of smilar nature end up turning more and more public lands to the "Wilderness" characterization which completely makes it off limits to the motorized public. Also positions such as secretary of the interior and moving down to BLM, Forest Service, etc... are filled with liberals that then hand down policy or theories that lend land managers to closing public lands to motorized access.

We've lost a great deal of lands haven't we? Bush appointed Dirk Kempthorne so I'm not seeing a real cohesive argument that the election of Obama would definitely result in the closure of lands where as the election of McCain would not. The closures seem to be an ongoing fight regardless of who is in office.
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:03 PM   #14
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well i don't completely think that is a bad idea now, i love the outdoors and there are some places where motorized vehicles shouldn't be. some land just shouldn't be developed on or be allowed to be altered or tampered with. i am no tree hugger but honestly lets not destroy everything!!
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:40 PM   #15
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Bill Clinton locked up a lot of land during his term, and paved the way for even more as he exited office. It WILL happen again with Obama. "fawkin executive orders"
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:14 AM   #16
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the only places we have to wheel around here are privately owned places anyway. do y'all have "public" places you can go? (owned by the gov) or are you saying they make it illegal for a land owner to allow it?
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:21 AM   #17
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the only places we have to wheel around here are privately owned places anyway. do y'all have "public" places you can go? (owned by the gov) or are you saying they make it illegal for a land owner to allow it?

We have public lands here in SoCal, national parks and state parks. And yjwrangler, we don't destroy land just by being there. In fact, the groups I wheel with make it a point to leave the trails cleaner than they were, we also move fallen trees and generally help maintain what we can. The lands are being closed because one group does not/will not understand the other's right to be there.


By the way, anyone watch the roast McCain and Obama were at? That's the McCain who needs to shine. Even my left wing writer's board is buzzing about how great it was to see the old John McCain, the one who should have been president back in 2000.
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:30 AM   #18
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We have public lands here in SoCal, national parks and state parks. And yjwrangler, we don't destroy land just by being there. In fact, the groups I wheel with make it a point to leave the trails cleaner than they were, we also move fallen trees and generally help maintain what we can. The lands are being closed because one group does not/will not understand the other's right to be there.


By the way, anyone watch the roast McCain and Obama were at? That's the McCain who needs to shine. Even my left wing writer's board is buzzing about how great it was to see the old John McCain, the one who should have been president back in 2000.
its not just cleaning up after yourself tiny, just by running those roads and causing the ruckus that we do, we are changing the environment..dam i am sorry i just feel like such a hippy saying that. i speak for both sides here. i love wheelin in the woods, but i also do alot of backpacking and in that sense i see a need for untouched land and to maintain an almost zero impact on certain parks and wilderness preservation's
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:35 AM   #19
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Untouched land has no roads. We don't cut our own paths, so untouched land is safe. And, I've seen backpackers and bikers do plenty of damage without the use of a motorized vehicle.


Here's the dinner McCain and Obama were at...

McCain, Obama At Al Smith Dinner: Candidates Spar With Jokes
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:42 AM   #20
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ok fine you win...man McCain is old!!!
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:18 AM   #21
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Untouched land has no roads. We don't cut our own paths, so untouched land is safe. And, I've seen backpackers and bikers do plenty of damage without the use of a motorized vehicle.
This is true and not true. Much of national forest and other less protected areas were purchased as private property and converted, so there are many "jeep trails" that cut through restricted areas.

I'm very glad there are places that can only be seen by foot travel. I don't like the Jeep ads that show vehicles camping on scenic bluffs. Everyone knows to tuck your tent into an area where you don't dominate the view. Also, it is sad to see a run of elk at sunrise because some asshat on a snowmobile is charging up a valley. To not be able to escape the sound of motors, even in the most remote areas can make you want to weep.





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Old 10-17-2008, 11:40 AM   #22
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thank for the backup jupiter, although i must say you do have a knack for posting some antagonistic remarks...just thinking of other post..but seriously thanks for helping me prove my point, I'm not good at proving points (look at how fast i surrendered to tiny)
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:46 AM   #23
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To call them "jeep trails" is a little deceptive. There are many vehicles cutting their own paths, but responsible wheelers do not, one of the reasons we do not allow posting wildcat wheeling.


As for the jeep commercials, I equate that with the Happy Cow campaign. PETA protested because the slogan read Happy Cows come from California. They felt it was deceptive advertising, but come on. Advertising is all about lying.

YJ, it ain't about winning. It's about discussing. Big Bear is full of trails, camp grounds, and people. No one does any more damage than the other. Responsible people do the right things, but irresponsibility cuts across the boards and is not connected to one group or another. It's just easy to demonize the group using dino-power.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:53 AM   #24
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don't just stop at advertising...but anywho i was just saying that walk out in your national forrest over in calli, go to the sierras, go into the private land. look at all the cut paths, the trash, gun shells, tires, rusted 1950's vehicles....as a matter of fact
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:56 AM   #25
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Protecting land does not mean it has to be closed. And with that..... I'm off to the San Diego Zoo for the day.
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Old 10-17-2008, 11:58 AM   #26
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my point is more can be done, and streams and forrest are being bought out for good reason to protect them from development... read some of what dynasty mine is going to do in bristol bay alaska, destroy the last north american natural salmon run, all for an open pit mine, the worlds biggest by the way. it would dwarf the newly built Chinese three gorges damn!!!!!!!!!! just a small point
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Old 10-17-2008, 12:10 PM   #27
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Much of national forest and other less protected areas were purchased as private property and converted, so there are many "jeep trails" that cut through restricted areas.
This is not true, "much" should read "some". Roads that existed at the time our National Forest were formed were mostly old mining and logging roads. They were originally made by horse and wagons, later followed by motorized vehichles. Most of these roads are gone except for the major routes. Our government has been closing roads at horrendous rate locking us out of our forests. They did this by creating new Wilderness areas and the Roadless act. For the most part it is the exact opposite of what you say that is true. The Forest Service has lost all sight of what its job is. They are part of the Dept of Agriculture. They are supposed to allow all (timber,mining & recreation) use of this land in a responsible way.

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I'm very glad there are places that can only be seen by foot travel. I don't like the Jeep ads that show vehicles camping on scenic bluffs. Everyone knows to tuck your tent into an area where you don't dominate the view. Also, it is sad to see a run of elk at sunrise because some asshat on a snowmobile is charging up a valley. To not be able to escape the sound of motors, even in the most remote areas can make you want to weep.
Its good that there are places that only allow foot or horse travel, National Parks, some State Parks and Wilderness where nothing motorized is allowed. Many if not most people will never see areas like this. Either because of the restricted use or they just don't care to expend the effort to do so. I personally have logged over 1000 miles in these areas and feel fortunate for doing so. You can escape the sound of all motors very easily.
As for pitching a tent in a scenic area, that's what its all about. As long as you are in a legal campsite pitch your tent where ever you want. As far as the elk running, try getting out and walking up that same valley. The wild creatures will still run from you, they fear man because of the food chain thing not just because you are on a snowmobile.
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Old 10-17-2008, 01:01 PM   #28
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Look, I'm speaking from experience, but I should clarify that in orienteering any developed road in the backcountry is called a "jeep trail". This is why I put it in quotes. It is not a term I endorse but I can't count the number of times I've read in a guidebook to "follow the jeep trail for next X-number of miles". It is a term that has become common use and as such can't be avoided, unless you want some sort of PC word-policed non-communicative drivel.

And yes, it is true that wildlife will clear out if they know you are coming. However, on several occasions, I've been having my breakfast miles and miles in and have been watching the elk feeding and have seen the scatter as the sound of an ATV. I'm just saying that it is a pisser.

Also, I have NEVER seen an designated tent spot that was not down below sight line below a ridge. For one, a tent on a ridge is a target for wind. I don't really care about the Jeep commercials except for the fact that it makes Jeep owners look like assholes. Most people do have the sense to take car of these places. It just comes with the territory. Still, I've never come back from a week out without hauling a pack full of other people's trash out.
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Old 10-17-2008, 04:05 PM   #29
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Living in the SW and particularly Arizona we have a unique vantage point that we have virtually every form of terrain here. From desert to mountains and everything in between. Most of my experiences in the back country and wheelin are this. When the wildlife can see us coming and hear us from a distance they are less antagonized then when they are spooked all of a sudden by a bike or hiker. That being said I have no doubt in my mind that motorized recreation does have an impact on the earth. That is why the groups I am on the board of work very hard with land managers of BLM, National Parks, Forest Service, etc... to mitigate and plan our routes in ways that do the least amount off harm to the environment.

Yes there are definitely the negatives in any form of public use. Whether it be hikers leaving unattended camp fires, to people driving out in the forest or desert just to dump their trash and then retardedly shoot at it for target practice. It is up to those of us that want to protect and preserve the lands we wheel on for future generations to enjoy.
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Old 10-17-2008, 05:46 PM   #30
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thats great, and once again a great point.

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