defense cuts "again" - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > General Discussion Forums > Off-Topic

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 01-25-2011, 09:47 AM   #1
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ski slope NJ
Posts: 475
defense cuts "again"

many posted in favor of cutting our defense budget. even though many could justify there decision to be in favor of this with well thought out, logical and educated responses including the use of graphs indicating just how much of our budget is spent on the military, i have to respectfully disagree. i stilll believe before 1 dollar is cut from this or any other program, "we the people" should have a full accounting of where every dollar goes "should be easy in the computer age" and force congress to change the way it conducts business. Mary Landrieu a Louisianna senator is asking congress for 250 BILLION DOLLARS to rebuild New Orleans. " keep in mind "a billion seconds ago it was 1959,,,,, a billion minutes ago, jesus was alive......a billion hours ago, neanderthals were alive and well..... a billion dollars ago was 8 hrs and 20 minutes ago the way congress spends our money...... staggering isn't!
lets do some simple math. 484,674 residents in new orleans, each person gets 516,528 dollars. there are 188,251 homes so each home would get $1,329,787.00. Do you really believe this money would get to the people, or will it some how just "vanish". "found these facts on a flyer my daughtrs poly sci prof. handed out. my question is, Do you still think we need to make cuts in needed services, or should e do away with with disinformation, and demand a transparent accounting of where our tax dollars actually go?

navret is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 11:42 AM   #2
Jeeper
 
EdJonesJeeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1,007
Wasn't there supposed to be a website that did just that. Show where every penny was going? I remember that very well during the presidential race. Part of why I voted but I have yet to find it.

__________________
99' TJ Sahara d44 on 35's
EdJonesJeeper is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 12:39 PM   #3
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ski slope NJ
Posts: 475
if there was, i never saw it.
navret is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 02:43 PM   #4
Jeeper
 
pokey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: backroads of the Mojave
Posts: 1,106
Some of it was recently spent on a lavish lobster feast for visiting Chinese at the White House
__________________
__________________________________________
. . . . picking the lines with my twenty-nines . . . .
__________________________________________

'99 sport 4.0 5 speed, top-of-the-line floormats
pokey is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 02:59 PM   #5
Jeeper
 
Pmedg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 868
Navret, i agree with you. defense should not be where we look to trim the budget, especially given the amount of jobs the money funds, oh yeah and that country safety thing, thats a big one.
Pmedg is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 03:44 PM   #6
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
There are dozens of websites, many from the government that break down each budget, from each department to a reasonable granular level. The break down is at least easy enough to determine "where the fat is" and what is necessary for services, infrastructure, debt and other appropriations.

The issue at hand is simple...with 42.2% of ALL appropriations related to defense, it is impossible not to look at defense spending for cuts. It does not mean folks are "in favor of cutting the defense budget" but the simple fact remains...if you want tax cuts, if you want a balanced budget, if you want to only spend what you take in AND if you want to start paying down the National Dept it is impossible not to cut deep in the defense budget.

Right now we have about $2.2Trillion in Revenues and a budget of $3.69Trillion. That is a differential of -$1.49T. Cumulative Defense spending is 42% of the total budget or $1.5T.

As a former AF researcher who has burned through a bunch of defense spending in the 70s-80s [and a civilian consultant after that] I have a really good grasp on where there are places to cut. Remember, not all cuts touch troops. Not all cuts touch veterans. Some programs are redundant between services. Some are "stimulus programs" for pet corporations that need work.

Then there are the redundant bases. Yes, we have them. Not as many as previously but we certainly do. But many of those are in very conservative districts where the Congresscritter doesn't want HIS district to lose a base. Take the new House Armed Services Committee Chairman Buck McKeon for example.
McKeon on Defense Cuts | The Weekly Standard

The main bases for which he has a vested district interest, rather than a budget interest are:
  • Fort Irwin,
  • Edwards Air Force Base,
  • Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake,
  • Marine Mountain Warfare Training Center.
The list of contributors to his campaigns include EVERY defense contractor including Lockheed's $50,000 this past campaign cycle.
Howard P. (Buck) Mckeon: Campaign Finance/Money - Summary - Representative 2010 | OpenSecrets



The NYT did a cool little chart that is very descriptive of different programs, where they grew or shrank and how they relate to other programs...
Obama?s 2011 Budget Proposal: How It?s Spent - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com


It boils down to this...it is not possible to avoid big defense spending cuts IF folks really want tax cuts, balanced budget, reduction of National Debt. The math just does not allow any other solution.


Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Tax dollar.jpg
Views:	36
Size:	105.8 KB
ID:	35962  
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 03:51 PM   #7
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
A note to clarify, I am not for big cuts in the defense budget. The cuts there, like in any other department will cause job losses, will cause further recession and will cause a weakening of our capabilities.

It is why I find this absolute mandate to cut taxes and balance the budget such a folly. It is just not possible to do what Tea Party folks keep demanding and promising. The math will just not allow it without consequences that most folks won't accept [such as big reductions of military presence].

We can't have it both ways, and that is what folks seem to be asking. Keep the part of the budget that costs the most and still cut taxes and balance the budget. Unicorns and rainbows...they only look good in little girls rooms, not as promises from political parties.
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 03:56 PM   #8
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
Oh, and I know I keep harping on Infrastructure spending. I do so for reasons like this. At some point we have to step up or step aside.

The options are not pretty.

China to create world
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 03:59 PM   #9
Jeeper
 
Pmedg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 868
Good Info McBear.

btw just to stir the pot for a little fun what does everyone think would happen if we went from a Progressive tax we have now to a Flat percentage on income and then just got rid of all the deductions? less govt spending on finding tax cheats and more money coming in?
Pmedg is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 04:02 PM   #10
Jeeper
 
Pmedg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 868
China also has a lot of advantages of creating infrastructure than we had. we were creating the tech while implementing it, they have been implementing the tech in the recent past after much of it was already invented. China is a great place to invest btw, there toll roads are publicly traded people are moving from the rural areas to the coast in numbers larger than the US and Russian population, and you can invest alonside the chinese govt in publicly traded companies.
Pmedg is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 04:27 PM   #11
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ski slope NJ
Posts: 475
mac

he main point of my post is why is this senator asking for 250 billion dollars to rebuild new orleans. look at the numbers in my post, and i can assure you, this money will never get to the people that need it. why make cuts before we balance the budget. i don't believe anyone really knows where all the money goes.
navret is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 04:29 PM   #12
Jeeper
 
Pmedg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 868
250 billion seems excessive when broken down the way you show. sorry for getting off topic.
Pmedg is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 05:14 PM   #13
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by navret View Post
he main point of my post is why is this senator asking for 250 billion dollars to rebuild new orleans. look at the numbers in my post, and i can assure you, this money will never get to the people that need it. why make cuts before we balance the budget. i don't believe anyone really knows where all the money goes.
I hate to do this but the Systems Analyst in me knows no other way.

Let's look at your first post on the subject..."Mary Landrieu a Louisianna senator is asking congress for 250 BILLION DOLLARS to rebuild New Orleans.". NO, she, and Republican Senator Vitter submitted the Louisiana Katrina Reconstruction Act IN 2005. Here is their press release.
Louisiana Senators Introduce Hurricane Katrina Recovery Package

Now, here are the actions taken on Senate Bill 1765:
S. 1765 [109th]: Louisiana Katrina Reconstruction Act (GovTrack.us)

Note that it DIED IN COMMITTEE and each attempt, also in the 109th Congress ALSO DIED. In other words, even when introduced just THREE WEEKS after Katrina hit, and the devastation to the city and ports was fresh in everyone's minds, it DIED IN COMMITTEE.
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 05:29 PM   #14
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by navret View Post
staggering isn't!
lets do some simple math. 484,674 residents in new orleans, each person gets 516,528 dollars. there are 188,251 homes so each home would get $1,329,787.00. Do you really believe this money would get to the people, or will it some how just "vanish". "found these facts on a flyer my daughtrs poly sci prof. handed out. my question is, Do you still think we need to make cuts in needed services, or should e do away with with disinformation, and demand a transparent accounting of where our tax dollars actually go?
Since you brought it up, let's look at this simple math problem.

The originator of the problem suggested that the "logic" was "TOTAL$/Number of residents" as if that is how a regional metropolis works.

Let's look at a few things that are NOT "just" the homes of each of the residents.

All the buses flooded
All of the water treatment facilities destroyed
All of the levies breached or weakened
All of the bridges weakend
All of the highways to be repaved
All of the traffic signaling systems
All of the sewer systems restored
All of the power systems restored
All of the hospital infrastructures rebuilt
All of the School systems rebuilt
All of the port infrastructure [500million TONS of cargo each year are processed]
Improved FLOOD CONTROL
Reimbursement to the state for some expenses
Temporary [well, if 5 years can be called temporary] Housing for many Residents.

When NO failed, nearly every infrastructure system had total failure and has to be rebuilt or restored or repurchased or changed. NO is "lucky" in that for several years 50% of the population fled their homes. That number is now "only" 30% permanent reduction of population.
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 11:02 PM   #15
Jeeper
 
pokey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: backroads of the Mojave
Posts: 1,106
McBear, what is your definition of "redundant" when it comes to military bases ?
Darn right congressmen are going to fight base closures within their district. As well they should. Entire communities depend on them. If the Twentynine Palms base closed (I know, it's not on the chopping block, it's actually expanding as other bases close, but it IS my community, and my community depends on it). And it's not all about defense contractors, even though they have been a major part of our lifeblood since WW2. Travel down Adobe Rd. on the way to Twentynine Palms base and look at all the mom and pop shops. Barbers, food joints, motorcycle repair shops, tattoo and massage parlors (sorry, trying to inject a little humor). They ALL depend on the base. Not to mention the 1300 civilian employees who work on the base. If the base closed, the whole Morongo Basin would suffer. Yucca Valley, Joshua Tree, Landers, Twentynine Palms, Morongo Valley. ALL of them. So It's not as simple as saying "the bases are redundant, let's close them". Every Base has a civilian community that depends on them.
__________________
__________________________________________
. . . . picking the lines with my twenty-nines . . . .
__________________________________________

'99 sport 4.0 5 speed, top-of-the-line floormats
pokey is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 09:03 AM   #16
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokey View Post
McBear, what is your definition of "redundant" when it comes to military bases ?
Darn right congressmen are going to fight base closures within their district. As well they should. Entire communities depend on them. If the Twentynine Palms base closed (I know, it's not on the chopping block, it's actually expanding as other bases close, but it IS my community, and my community depends on it). And it's not all about defense contractors, even though they have been a major part of our lifeblood since WW2. Travel down Adobe Rd. on the way to Twentynine Palms base and look at all the mom and pop shops. Barbers, food joints, motorcycle repair shops, tattoo and massage parlors (sorry, trying to inject a little humor). They ALL depend on the base. Not to mention the 1300 civilian employees who work on the base. If the base closed, the whole Morongo Basin would suffer. Yucca Valley, Joshua Tree, Landers, Twentynine Palms, Morongo Valley. ALL of them. So It's not as simple as saying "the bases are redundant, let's close them". Every Base has a civilian community that depends on them.
first, let me be VERY CLEAR... I am NOT for all these closings. I am not one of the "cut taxes and balance the budget without looking down the road" guys.

When I worked on BRAC we looked at everything...including massage parlor and stripper impacts. That all mattered.

But the iassue is, in the world of budget cuts there will be sacrifices like 29 Palms. It is what conservatives asked for. And it is no differedt than the results of corporate decisions to outsource manufacturing, resulting in towns closing down.

I have no idea of your politics but if you supported tea party, supported conservative fiscal policy, you can expect much more cuts in defense IF cut happen.

.
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 11:06 AM   #17
Jeeper
 
pokey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: backroads of the Mojave
Posts: 1,106
Well last night Obama said there would be a website showing where every penny goes. My question is, is this going to be create another agency to develop and maintain the site, and who is going to double check the numbers.

I see things like this. The waste and spending in Washington is out of control. About 15 years ago the El Toro Air base and Tustin Marine base were closed in Orange County. Sold to the highest bidders (developers). What did the government do with that money ?. The El Toro base is now home to the far from finished "Great Park" in Irvine boondoggle that lined Larry Agran and others polititions pockets with shady backroom deals. The Tustin property was bought by a Florida developer which is now bankrupt and the property sits with half built homes.

The government is targeting defense cuts/base closures because they're like an addict running out of money and need their next fix. When will it end ?

I know I'm over simplifying a complicated situation but that's how I see it. O.K., my rant is over.
__________________
__________________________________________
. . . . picking the lines with my twenty-nines . . . .
__________________________________________

'99 sport 4.0 5 speed, top-of-the-line floormats
pokey is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 01:13 PM   #18
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokey View Post
Well last night Obama said there would be a website showing where every penny goes. My question is, is this going to be create another agency to develop and maintain the site, and who is going to double check the numbers.

I see things like this. The waste and spending in Washington is out of control. About 15 years ago the El Toro Air base and Tustin Marine base were closed in Orange County. Sold to the highest bidders (developers). What did the government do with that money ?. The El Toro base is now home to the far from finished "Great Park" in Irvine boondoggle that lined Larry Agran and others polititions pockets with shady backroom deals. The Tustin property was bought by a Florida developer which is now bankrupt and the property sits with half built homes.

The government is targeting defense cuts/base closures because they're like an addict running out of money and need their next fix. When will it end ?

I know I'm over simplifying a complicated situation but that's how I see it. O.K., my rant is over.
To your first question, I can't see a need for a new agency to collect data that exists in standing agencies, it is simple "pull data" access from current datasets. The number of folks managing a consolidated site would be in the dozens rather than "agency" sized and most likely run out of CBO or an administrative office that already exists. The only problem with the datasets that are drawn will be that, no matter how granular, there will be whining that there should be more detail [put a line that says $X to road salt in Kentucky, someone will want to know which vendor...someone else will want to know what else the vendor does, someone else will want to know what the vendor did when he dated the former congressman's sister's daughter's dog]. While that sounds good, at some level it now would defeat the purpose of the original theme.

In reality all the data is already available to anyone that wants to look, it just requires effort and most folks don't want to put the effort out.

As for double checking the numbers, see the second paragraph, ANYONE can check the original numbers on the original documents. Most are too lazy.

To the second point, El Toro and Tustin. The monies were put in the general fund. What happened to the properties after the sale are irrelevant to the discussion. The Federal Government is no longer involved.
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 01:33 PM   #19
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ski slope NJ
Posts: 475
mac

hello again, your argument is logical, well thought out with just a few flaws. first, your words " its easy to see where the fat is" why is there fat to be cut to begin with?
second: why did senator ask for 250 billion to begin with? "passed or not" it wasn't needed.
third: in new orleans, every square inch of road was wiped out? all the bridges destroyed, all infrastructure has disappeared and has to be replaced,

according to the news i watched from jersey, only a small part of new orleans was destroyed, not 250 billion dollars worth of damage. LEvy and damns, do it right or not at all, lets be smart, cheaper to move the people and buy them brand new homes.

fourth: all your info is based on what the gov't reports, thats a pretty big leap of faith.

fifth on your graph, it doesn't show how much money was misused, stolen, lost and ripped off, "overcharging." think dick cheney and his company haliburton, "sp" and of course wasted.
cut the fat, do away with lobbyists, change the way congress does business and an independent source to oversee our tax dollars. we could dig ourselves out of our economic mess, balance our budget pay down the deficet with out any cuts to essential services with simple logical changes.
navret is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 01:38 PM   #20
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
Now that I am at a real computer [rather than Droid typing] let me finish my previous post from earlier this morning.

If folks are really serious about budget cuts and balancing the budget, and also interested in staying competitive in the 21st Century we have to look at cutting the budget in places that nobody likes. Defense is going to be one very large target. And lots of areas like the Morongo Basin will be dried up. That is a fact of life in budget cuts.

Now some [like Kentucky's Rand Paul] just wants to cut R&D, Education and infrastructure updates. Sounds good until you realize he could cut it all to zero and still be $1T out of balance. The problem with that approach is that folks like China will continue to outpace us in Technology, Patents, Economy and, MOST IMPORTANT world influence.

That approach, which won't balance the budget will leave us well defended but at what cost. Kids that fall further behind in world education standards [16th in reading, 30 in Math and 23th in Science] mean that companies will not be looking to US students for cutting edge anything.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf

Our infrastructure in crumbling, our power grid has already shown its inability to handle multiple heat events and our transportation system is spotty at best. The number of bridges on US highways that are structurally deficient or functionally obsolete is over 150,000.

Cuts are going to come from everywhere if folks want tax cuts. Defense is going to be a big part. So is slipping in world power. That is the price we will pay for not doing what we have to do to keep up.

As I have posted before, at some point we either Step UP or Step ASIDE.
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 01:57 PM   #21
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by navret View Post
hello again, your argument is logical, well thought out with just a few flaws. first, your words " its easy to see where the fat is" why is there fat to be cut to begin with?
Much like with people entropy sets in with any project. In boom times it is easier to put on new departments or new people rather than work smarter or harder with the existing group. Fat accumulates.


second: why did senator ask for 250 billion to begin with? "passed or not" it wasn't needed.
The Senators asked for a Omnibus bill to accommodate ALL costs associated with the disaster rather than separate items to be included in the Transportation budget, Health, Human Services budget, Education budget, Defense budget, DHS budget, Commerce budget. They did not get their wish so the costs were spread to each of the various departments in individual bills.


third: in new orleans, every square inch of road was wiped out? all the bridges destroyed, all infrastructure has disappeared and has to be replaced,

Not all roads were destroyed. Confusion came in the way I wrote it. As a single sentence it would read..."Let's look at a few things like all of the highways that have to be repaved".

according to the news i watched from jersey, only a small part of new orleans was destroyed, not 250 billion dollars worth of damage. LEvy and damns, do it right or not at all, lets be smart, cheaper to move the people and buy them brand new homes.

fourth: all your info is based on what the gov't reports, thats a pretty big leap of faith.

My information is based on a whole bunch of different reports, some from the US Government, some from state, some from LSU, some from folks on the ground who do this for a living that I have known for decades. I don't tend to leap often.

fifth on your graph, it doesn't show how much money was misused, stolen, lost and ripped off, "overcharging." think dick cheney and his company haliburton, "sp" and of course wasted.
cut the fat, do away with lobbyists, change the way congress does business and an independent source to oversee our tax dollars. we could dig ourselves out of our economic mess, balance our budget pay down the deficet with out any cuts to essential services with simple logical changes.
YEAH!!! THAT is what we need to look at first. Organizing and tuning that which we already have.

We already have two independent sources to oversee our tax dollars, the CBO and the taxpayer. There are also other groups who do so to different degrees of success.

We can dig ourselves out of this mess. First thing we have to do, however is quit with the partisan silliness that stops all conversation. We have to work as a team to solve the problem.

Second thing we have to do is look at taxes. It might just mean that tax cuts are not such a grand idea at a time when we have soaring deficits, high National Debt, high Trade Deficits and an economic competitor that is eating our lunch.

In our most prosperous era, from the late 40s through the 60s we fueled our economy with 60-90% income tax rates and the businesses and personal incomes that grew from that era are legend. While I don't think we need those kind of rates, I think the argument that we just had about a 35% to 39% change [4%] was simply braindead stupid. We cut off our nose to spite our face.
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 02:21 PM   #22
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,121
The "redundant" that I would like to see go away is: Why are there special forces types in every branch of the service? Why does the Air Force need them? Why not put all boats in the Navy, All flying things in the Air Force, All mechanized things in the Army and leave the recon to the marines? That would cut a few bucks.
Gate53 is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 03:18 PM   #23
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate53 View Post
The "redundant" that I would like to see go away is: Why are there special forces types in every branch of the service? Why does the Air Force need them? Why not put all boats in the Navy, All flying things in the Air Force, All mechanized things in the Army and leave the recon to the marines? That would cut a few bucks.
AFSOC has a completely different type mission from Seals or Rangers. Some of their mission might be overlapping but things like forward air control and PJ work is not usually tasks the other guys have as Primary. That command was being consolidated as I was leaving in 1990 so I don't know its current config. I stayed at Edwards or Wright Patt most of the time.
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 07:29 PM   #24
Jeeper
 
pokey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: backroads of the Mojave
Posts: 1,106
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBear View Post
.
Kids that fall further behind in world education standards [16th in reading, 30 in Math and 23th in Science] mean that companies will not be looking to US students for cutting edge anything.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf

[/LEFT]
The reason our schools are producing statistics like this is because we aren't addressing the illegal immigrant problem. My 4th grader and 6th grader have kids in their classes who can't even speak basic English. In Orange County Cal. And of course they all get the free breakfasts and lunches while I send my kids to school with sack lunches because it's the right thing to do. And their parents drop them off in Escalades and Excursions. I'm not kidding you, I see it everyday. This is part of the madness we better take action on. California is already sunk partly because of it, mostly because the clowns in Sacto bow to lobbyists and special interest groups. Our whole country is next. Sorry, another rant off topic.
__________________
__________________________________________
. . . . picking the lines with my twenty-nines . . . .
__________________________________________

'99 sport 4.0 5 speed, top-of-the-line floormats
pokey is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 08:22 PM   #25
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokey View Post
The reason our schools are producing statistics like this is because we aren't addressing the illegal immigrant problem. My 4th grader and 6th grader have kids in their classes who can't even speak basic English. In Orange County Cal. And of course they all get the free breakfasts and lunches while I send my kids to school with sack lunches because it's the right thing to do. And their parents drop them off in Escalades and Excursions. I'm not kidding you, I see it everyday. This is part of the madness we better take action on. California is already sunk partly because of it, mostly because the clowns in Sacto bow to lobbyists and special interest groups. Our whole country is next. Sorry, another rant off topic.
If the illegal immigrant population was equally spread across the country then it might be considered a problem, but it is not. You just happen to be in an area that we invited Mexicans to come up and pick harvests while our troops were fighting WW2 [Bracero Treaty] and Monsanto and their buds really, really, REALLY liked the cheap labor.

But whatever the reasons for the p*ss poor test scores, we have to improve them. We have to have a student body that, when they graduate from highschool have a good working knowledge of math and science and an ability to read and write. That is the only way we will even begin to rebuild our production economy. Otherwise we will end up a nation of theme parks and fast food joints.
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 08:57 PM   #26
Jeeper
 
pokey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: backroads of the Mojave
Posts: 1,106
^ aside from the reason for the poor scores (which here in Cal IS related to the illegals. Teachers spend extra time with the kids of immigrants who don't speak English, taking time away from students who DO speak English), let's just talk about common sense things to save money. Our schools out here are broke. Why does my kid have to come home with announcements printed in English AND Spanish. Twice as much paper. And this doesn't encourage their parents to LEARN English. And the free lunch program. Get rid of that program. There IS no free lunch. And I wasn't joking about the fancy cars. If I can go to the grocery store and spend wisely selecting items to send my kids to school with a healthy lunch for 60 or 80 cents, so should everyone else. And a large portion of those free meals end up in the trash can.
__________________
__________________________________________
. . . . picking the lines with my twenty-nines . . . .
__________________________________________

'99 sport 4.0 5 speed, top-of-the-line floormats
pokey is offline   Quote
Old 01-26-2011, 10:37 PM   #27
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokey View Post
^ aside from the reason for the poor scores (which here in Cal IS related to the illegals. Teachers spend extra time with the kids of immigrants who don't speak English, taking time away from students who DO speak English), let's just talk about common sense things to save money. Our schools out here are broke. Why does my kid have to come home with announcements printed in English AND Spanish. Twice as much paper. And this doesn't encourage their parents to LEARN English. And the free lunch program. Get rid of that program. There IS no free lunch. And I wasn't joking about the fancy cars. If I can go to the grocery store and spend wisely selecting items to send my kids to school with a healthy lunch for 60 or 80 cents, so should everyone else. And a large portion of those free meals end up in the trash can.
I know that in some parts of the country there are folks for whom "free lunch" is the only option to no lunch. And more than enough signficant studies show that a healthy diet, during school is directly connected to learning.

As for the bilingual forms, look at it from the other side. With commerce with latin countries growing as quick as with the pacific rim, take this opportunity to immerse you and your family in Spanish to make yourselves more competitive in the future jobmarket.
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-27-2011, 01:07 PM   #28
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ski slope NJ
Posts: 475
Mac????????????????????

WOW! could it be we actually agree on many of these issues? lol
navret is offline   Quote
Old 01-27-2011, 02:59 PM   #29
Jeeper
 
McBear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 305
Quote:
Originally Posted by navret View Post
WOW! could it be we actually agree on many of these issues? lol
Most likely a lot more than you think.

My conservative friends believe me to be liberal. My liberal friends consider me conservative...I believe I have them all right where I want them.
__________________
McAllister
Lexington, KY

http://mcallisterbryant.deviantart.com
McBear is offline   Quote
Old 01-29-2011, 06:53 AM   #30
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: ski slope NJ
Posts: 475
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBear View Post
Most likely a lot more than you think.

My conservative friends believe me to be liberal. My liberal friends consider me conservative...I believe I have them all right where I want them.
mac, my friends just think i'm a nut job.

as to free lunch, i consider that an essential service. as to the way our gov't does business, lets talk about health care. obama's plan may seem like step in the right direction, but its not, just a stop gap. first the free lunch actually saves money. students learn better with better food, more productive member of society as well as healthier, reducing healthcare costs. schools need to be revamped, concentrate on the basics, math, english, history, social studies, history and science. gym needs to be revamped, nutrition and life style exercising should be the basis for gym classes. sports " and i enjoyed them all in high school, need to be eliminated. less grounds to be taken care of and less people to employed to do so. more savings. then we need to clean up our food supply with new ways of farming along with a new fda that is not tied to the big business. just posting this to show how it is all connected. "fix it right, fix it once and for all."

navret is offline   Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Defense cuts.... jeffk42 Off-Topic 114 02-05-2011 08:10 PM
Sirius Antenna on Roll Bar Cuts Out Frequently, Now what? waldrondigital Communications and Electronics 6 07-26-2009 09:05 PM
president obamas budget cuts... for dummies lost Off-Topic 4 05-04-2009 12:01 PM
Self defense? RIPBiker13 Off-Topic 245 01-17-2008 11:20 AM



Download our Mobile App

» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:29 PM.


User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2015 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC