Gun control--Just imagine the possibilities! - Page 10 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > General Discussion Forums > Off-Topic

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 12-25-2012, 09:04 PM   #271
Jeeper
 
Clemson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Coastal North Carolina
Posts: 93
Not sure where this thread was heading but the 2nd amendment does not guarantee the birth right to own semi automatic .223 rifles. Just because the technology exist does not mean you can own it. A Government has the authority to restrict access to all types of technology. I own a number of hand and shot guns and feel semi auto "military" knock offs with 30, 50 round clips have no place in the civilian marketplace. This country has to draw the line on these weapons.

Clemson is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-25-2012, 09:05 PM   #272
Jeeper
 
fan of fanboys's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 1,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ
Let me start with Merry Christmas, y'all.

Seriously? Camparing a family that was attacked by the FBI in broad daylight without the agents identifying who they were and an encampment possessing firearms in violation of US laws that allegedly sexually assaulted children and a man known by the FBI to be an active white supremacy fringe nut who had tried to illegally obtain explosives and nearly been kicked out of the klan for being too "extreme"?

Not a valid comparrison; yet if you read about the attack on the Branch Dividians you would know that the Nat Gaurd used tanks to run people over, inject toxic gases into a concrete bunker full of only unarmed women and children, and openly engage unarmed citizens and armed citizens trying to establish a cease fire from the beggining. They used their helicopters to fire down on them while on the phone with them saying the hilos had no weapons. Everyone involved in that raid should have been tried in court for attempted murder and violation of civil rights (though some were tried, and iirc, convicted for their crimes against the populace).

Wanna talk conspiricies? Read up on OK City, and the multiple news agencies citing 2nd and even 3rd bombs, plus eyewitnesses hearing multiple explosions, plus the asymmetrical destruction of the blast. Interesting facts. You know the FBI still refuses to release any security footage of the Murrah Federal Building, which was covered in cameras (particularly the open South streetside face, where the truck was parked)? Why? You see where the bangs happen, and who put them there. It couldn't have been one man given the evidence. But why is that a secret???

But not believing govt reports, apparently, makes me "nucking futs". If that be the determinate, I am guilty as charged. I don't like story time - I like to find facts.

Additionally, are you familiar with the fall of the Romans (or any great civ)? A well armed community will be essential to an American peace one day, on the local level. There will not be an Army to come protect you. To not believe this simplest of concepts is to ignore over 10k years of historical evidence, or probabilities presented through the repetition of similar cultural and societal follies. People do what people do, as a history prof put it to me once. My comments were not geared solely at defense from a national force, but any such aggresor you may find yourself entangled with.

And to all a Good Night. =)

Oh, and John Josling and his son Gabriel Joslin would beg to differ with your concept. See, they fought in the militias of VA and GA, respectively, and were itsrementally(?) important in defeating the worlds largest and best equiped army, the Red Coats and Dragoons of England. They did it with squrril hunting rifles, and were my Fore Fathers.
There are reports of multiple shooters at the recent elementary shooting. I can't find link but its in the other thread you and I were on last week.

__________________
not
/nät/
adverb
1. used with an auxiliary verb or “be” to form the negative
2. used as a short substitute for a negative clause
"Not actually a backer of this thought"
fan of fanboys is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-25-2012, 09:07 PM   #273
Jeeper
 
free78's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Seminole, Florida
Posts: 238
Funny thing happened the other day. Both of my kids played all day in the family room. The same room that my gun cabinet is in. I got to admit I was worried but not a single gun hurt them all day. I know it's hard to believe but it's true. Not a single gun tried hurting them. Not even the black scary AR.

Guns do not kill and that we all can agree on. The problem is society and what our country has turned to over the last 20-30 years. Like mentioned before I grew up and not to long ago still left keys in the vehicles, house unlocked but you can't do that anymore. This is a different world than it once was. People are not worried about the punishment. They are either planning on killing themselves, make the police do it or they know prison is going to be a vacation and they will be free soon after because of our screwed up system.

Also can we please stop saying the 2nd Amendment was written before the weapons of today and was meant for muskets. The amendment never mentions a weapon. When it was written we still publicly hung people. Maybe we should get back to that.

I'm for security at school. We have a lot of trained veterans getting out of the service. Give them a mental eval and we have security. Fund it the same as you do everyone else that works at the school. I'm a veteran and would happily take a pay cut to protect our children.
__________________
1997 TJ
2011 Liberty
free78 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-25-2012, 09:21 PM   #274
Jeeper
 
BlueRidgeYJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemson
Not sure where this thread was heading but the 2nd amendment does not guarantee the birth right to own semi automatic .223 rifles. Just because the technology exist does not mean you can own it. A Government has the authority to restrict access to all types of technology. I own a number of hand and shot guns and feel semi auto "military" knock offs with 30, 50 round clips have no place in the civilian marketplace. This country has to draw the line on these weapons.
Myself, and those that wrote it, disagree with you. The 2nd was written with the reference of the armies weapons being housed in the hands of the populace, preventing armories or standing armies.

If this concept makes anyone uncomfortable, many countries in Europe and elsewhere do not allow it. Perhaps you would feel safer there, with armies keeping you safe. I would love to see my homeland return to such independence, though I am doubtful it ever will.
__________________
“Coming of age in a fascist police state will not be a barrel of fun for anybody, much less for people like me, who are not inclined to suffer Nazis gladly and feel only contempt for the cowardly flag-suckers who would gladly give up their outdated freedom to live for the mess of pottage they have been conned into believing will be freedom from fear.”
BlueRidgeYJ is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-25-2012, 09:37 PM   #275
Jeeper
 
BlueRidgeYJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by fan of fanboys

There are reports of multiple shooters at the recent elementary shooting. I can't find link but its in the other thread you and I were on last week.
There is far too much conflicting information from Newtown for me to take anything as credible off hand at this time. The reports of how the faculty greeted the SWAT and first responders, along with the eywitness reports specifically about the "2nd gunman arrested", are very troubling to say the least. I am very interested to read the official final story.
__________________
“Coming of age in a fascist police state will not be a barrel of fun for anybody, much less for people like me, who are not inclined to suffer Nazis gladly and feel only contempt for the cowardly flag-suckers who would gladly give up their outdated freedom to live for the mess of pottage they have been conned into believing will be freedom from fear.”
BlueRidgeYJ is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-25-2012, 11:23 PM   #276
Jeeper
 
Ditchdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Placentia
Posts: 3,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ

There is far too much conflicting information from Newtown for me to take anything as credible off hand at this time. The reports of how the faculty greeted the SWAT and first responders, along with the eywitness reports specifically about the "2nd gunman arrested", are very troubling to say the least. I am very interested to read the official final story.
You know what creeps me out is on the same day the same thing happened in china. A guy with mental issues walks into a class room full of kids just to harm them.
__________________
Bender Bending Rodriguez is my role model.
Ditchdoc is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 01:29 AM   #277
Jeeper
 
hwy1rubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 643
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRidgeYJ View Post
Let me start with Merry Christmas, y'all.



Seriously? Camparing a family that was attacked by the FBI in broad daylight without the agents identifying who they were and an encampment possessing firearms in violation of US laws that allegedly sexually assaulted children and a man known by the FBI to be an active white supremacy fringe nut who had tried to illegally obtain explosives and nearly been kicked out of the klan for being too "extreme"?

Not a valid comparrison; yet if you read about the attack on the Branch Dividians you would know that the Nat Gaurd used tanks to run people over, inject toxic gases into a concrete bunker full of only unarmed women and children, and openly engage unarmed citizens and armed citizens trying to establish a cease fire from the beggining. They used their helicopters to fire down on them while on the phone with them saying the hilos had no weapons. Everyone involved in that raid should have been tried in court for attempted murder and violation of civil rights (though some were tried, and iirc, convicted for their crimes against the populace).

Wanna talk conspiricies? Read up on OK City, and the multiple news agencies citing 2nd and even 3rd bombs, plus eyewitnesses hearing multiple explosions, plus the asymmetrical destruction of the blast. Interesting facts. You know the FBI still refuses to release any security footage of the Murrah Federal Building, which was covered in cameras (particularly the open South streetside face, where the truck was parked)? Why? You see where the bangs happen, and who put them there. It couldn't have been one man given the evidence. But why is that a secret???

But not believing govt reports, apparently, makes me "nucking futs". If that be the determinate, I am guilty as charged. I don't like story time - I like to find facts.

Additionally, are you familiar with the fall of the Romans (or any great civ)? A well armed community will be essential to an American peace one day, on the local level. There will not be an Army to come protect you. To not believe this simplest of concepts is to ignore over 10k years of historical evidence, or probabilities presented through the repetition of similar cultural and societal follies. People do what people do, as a history prof put it to me once. My comments were not geared solely at defense from a national force, but any such aggresor you may find yourself entangled with.

And to all a Good Night. =)

Oh, and John Josling and his son Gabriel Joslin would beg to differ with your concept. See, they fought in the militias of VA and GA, respectively, and were itsrementally(?) important in defeating the worlds largest and best equiped army, the Red Coats and Dragoons of England. They did it with squrril hunting rifles, and were my Fore Fathers.
The 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' is an interesting discussion if you have read DM Low's edited version or Gibbon's books on the subject and understand the impact of the Tetrarchs, Metallurgy, Christianity and the Invasions of the Barbarians, Goths, along with the impact of King Alaric.

Technology has made the hunting rifle obsolete in modern warfare. But again have at it, I wish you luck, because you will definitely need it.
hwy1rubi is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 10:32 AM   #278
Jeeper
 
fan of fanboys's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 1,985
__________________
not
/nät/
adverb
1. used with an auxiliary verb or “be” to form the negative
2. used as a short substitute for a negative clause
"Not actually a backer of this thought"
fan of fanboys is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 12:37 PM   #279
The Bad Guy

WF Supporting Member
 
daggo66's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NJ exile living in Baltimore
Posts: 22,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemson View Post
Not sure where this thread was heading but the 2nd amendment does not guarantee the birth right to own semi automatic .223 rifles. Just because the technology exist does not mean you can own it. A Government has the authority to restrict access to all types of technology. I own a number of hand and shot guns and feel semi auto "military" knock offs with 30, 50 round clips have no place in the civilian marketplace. This country has to draw the line on these weapons.
Really? A communist or dictatorship does, not ours. Restrict technology? Goodbye internet.
__________________
Tom

"I've got two things in this world, my balls and my word and I don't break them for no one."
daggo66 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 12:41 PM   #280
Jeeper
 
Raiderfan001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Knob Noster, MO
Posts: 7,381
We shouldn't have 4 wheel drives with lifts and mud tires. All we need are front wheel drive civics. The gov't should really do something about this unnecessary advanced technology we possess.
Raiderfan001 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 02:56 PM   #281
Jeeper
 
scipio337's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,380
Can we at lease agree on something here:

Anyone using the word "clip" interchangeably with "magazine" should be beaten repeatedly about the head and ears with a cricket bat.







That is all!
scipio337 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 03:41 PM   #282
G54
another brick in the wall

WF Supporting Member
 
G54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NEO
Posts: 17,095
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiderfan001 View Post
We shouldn't have 4 wheel drives with lifts and mud tires. All we need are front wheel drive civics. The gov't should really do something about this unnecessary advanced technology we possess.
I really think we need to ban swimming pools too. Those things drown way too many children every year. Or at least restrict the depth to 10". Nobody needs a deep water pool unless you're a professional diver.
G54 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 04:30 PM   #283
Jeeper
 
Ditchdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Placentia
Posts: 3,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus54

I really think we need to ban swimming pools too. Those things drown way too many children every year. Or at least restrict the depth to 10". Nobody needs a deep water pool unless you're a professional diver.
Stop giving them ideas.
__________________
Bender Bending Rodriguez is my role model.
Ditchdoc is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 04:37 PM   #284
Jeeper
 
SmugglersBlues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: To close for criminals, too far away for victims.
Posts: 534
Anyone else wonder if Cuban's felt the way we feel right now right before Castro?
__________________
I would take an unpleasant truth over a comfortable false hood. You learn nothing from lies, whether someone else is telling them to you, or you are telling them to yourself.

- Me (sometimes I'm pretty deep)
SmugglersBlues is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 04:38 PM   #285
G54
another brick in the wall

WF Supporting Member
 
G54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NEO
Posts: 17,095
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditchdoc View Post

Stop giving them ideas.
No way, we need more protection from our irresponsible selves. In fact, I think cars should not be able to exceed 60 mph. That's the top speed limit in most places so why should anyone ever need to go faster unless you're a professional race car driver? I'm writing my representative tomorrow. This senseless speeding has got to stop before more people die.
G54 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 04:55 PM   #286
Jeeper
 
scipio337's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus54 View Post
I really think we need to ban swimming pools too. Those things drown way too many children every year. Or at least restrict the depth to 10". Nobody needs a deep water pool unless you're a professional diver.

But we would also need to institute a water tax for those who don't pay Their Fair Share™ by skirting the local water taxes with thier fancy, < 10" deep swimming pools.

State to charge electric-car owners $100 a year | Local News | The Seattle Times
scipio337 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:03 PM   #287
Jeeper
 
teknoid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Posts: 510
Those that believe the 2nd referred to technology available when the constitution was written should apply that same theory to the 1st amendment, and post with quill pen, inkwell, and parchment. It would make a lot more sense, since the first semi-auto was developed in the 1880s and the internet followed 100 years later.
__________________
Growing Older But Not UP
teknoid is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:05 PM   #288
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: KCMO
Posts: 196
The false equivalencies are flying. When people start using lifted Jeeps, speeding cars, and swimming pools to perform acts of intentional mass murder, discuss banning them. Until then, resist the urge to deflect the direction of the conversation.
Megafriday is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:10 PM   #289
Jeeper
 
SmugglersBlues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: To close for criminals, too far away for victims.
Posts: 534
Yes because no one ever used a vehicle as a means to kill anyone. I guess Oklahoma City was just a dream.
__________________
I would take an unpleasant truth over a comfortable false hood. You learn nothing from lies, whether someone else is telling them to you, or you are telling them to yourself.

- Me (sometimes I'm pretty deep)
SmugglersBlues is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:12 PM   #290
Jeeper
 
SmugglersBlues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: To close for criminals, too far away for victims.
Posts: 534
Banning anything has never worked. The war on drugs comes to mind as we all know we are winning that one. IT DOESNT GET ANY MORE SIMPLE THAN CRIMINALS DONT OBEY LAWS! If they did I would be out of a job.
__________________
I would take an unpleasant truth over a comfortable false hood. You learn nothing from lies, whether someone else is telling them to you, or you are telling them to yourself.

- Me (sometimes I'm pretty deep)
SmugglersBlues is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:12 PM   #291
Jeeper
 
werubiblue06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Moreno Valley, CA
Posts: 1,175
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmugglersBlues View Post
Anyone else wonder if Cuban's felt the way we feel right now right before Castro?

Funny you would ask that because I am Cuban born. My parents came to this country in the winter of 1969, I was 3 years old. The vast majority that left Cuba was because they wanted freedom. Too many refused to be dictated to by those in power--sounds familiar? We are forever grateful to this country for giving us the opportunity to be all we could be. With that opportunity offered to us, my brother has reached the ranks of Capitan in the LAPD and I have been blessed to be self-employed since the age of 22.

I really feel that too many here take too much for granted and don't realize as our founding fathers did that freedom needs to be protected. Protected from the outside as well as from the inside! Meaning Freedom is a right that is not given to you by any one government but by our creator. This is something too many Cubans took for granted and lost it. I'm sure many never thought they would ever loose their freedom as they did.

Our freedom does need to be protected as it should have been in many other countries that woke up too late and lost theirs.
__________________
"We can't all be Washingtons, but we can all be patriots."
~Charles F. Browne
werubiblue06 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:15 PM   #292
Jeeper
 
SmugglersBlues's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: To close for criminals, too far away for victims.
Posts: 534
My worry is, as Reagan said, If we lose freedom here there is no where left to escape to.
__________________
I would take an unpleasant truth over a comfortable false hood. You learn nothing from lies, whether someone else is telling them to you, or you are telling them to yourself.

- Me (sometimes I'm pretty deep)
SmugglersBlues is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:16 PM   #293
IITYWTMWYBMAB

WF Supporting Member
::WF Administrator::
 
4Jeepn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Florence, KY
Posts: 10,268
Images: 5
based on the pictures above i will take a clip every time... as it has bullets on it which I can take and put in my gun... the magazine appears to have not bullets and there for is useless...
__________________
79.96.85.00.01.97.00.97.93.97.95.94
CJ.XJ.CJ. TJ. TJ.ZJ. TJ.TJ. ZJ.ZJ.YJ. XJ
4Jeepn is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:20 PM   #294
Jeeper
 
ltsrapcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cedar City UT
Posts: 475
Ok Megafriday, so we can talk about banning airplanes then?
ltsrapcon is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:24 PM   #295
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: KCMO
Posts: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmugglersBlues View Post
Yes because no one ever used a vehicle as a means to kill anyone. I guess Oklahoma City was just a dream.
You're right. That rental truck just blew up on its own.

Now, as a non-farmer, go try to purchase 5000 pounds of ammonium nitrate and large quantities of nitromethane without attracting attention. Good luck.
Megafriday is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:30 PM   #296
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: KCMO
Posts: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltsrapcon View Post
Ok Megafriday, so we can talk about banning airplanes then?
To use your line of non-logic, why don't we ban the influenza virus, too?

Try getting box cutters and other edge weapons on planes.
Megafriday is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:39 PM   #297
G54
another brick in the wall

WF Supporting Member
 
G54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NEO
Posts: 17,095
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megafriday View Post
The false equivalencies are flying. When people start using lifted Jeeps, speeding cars, and swimming pools to perform acts of intentional mass murder, discuss banning them. Until then, resist the urge to deflect the direction of the conversation.
Uh, I was making a point with sarcasm regarding banning things that cause death being a ridiculous solution. How is that deflecting the direction of the conversation? Speeding is intentionally putting innocent people in harms way. Letting your child play near a pool unsupervised is child endangerment. The Brady Bunch used and still uses accidental shooting by children getting a hold of dad's gun as an excuse for gun control. This time around they are just using the latest tragedy to further their agenda. Bad people will do bad things ... regardless of laws. The gov will never be able to legislate personal responsibility no matter what they ban.
G54 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:42 PM   #298
Jeeper
 
JKASS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clemson
Not sure where this thread was heading but the 2nd amendment does not guarantee the birth right to own semi automatic .223 rifles. Just because the technology exist does not mean you can own it. A Government has the authority to restrict access to all types of technology. I own a number of hand and shot guns and feel semi auto "military" knock offs with 30, 50 round clips have no place in the civilian marketplace. This country has to draw the line on these weapons.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/world/art...13-4144574.php

Man runs car into 23 Chinese kids at middle school! Gov't should restrict access to cars, and especially jeeps. I propose an ASSAULT CAR BAN!! Its the only way people.
JKASS is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 05:52 PM   #299
G54
another brick in the wall

WF Supporting Member
 
G54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NEO
Posts: 17,095
Images: 5
Sometimes arsonists use matches and gasoline to intentionally set fires to kill people. So maybe we need to ban the sale of matches, lighters, and gas or at least limit how much can be sold or register the users into a data base. Wait, would that be another false equilivilecy?
G54 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 12-26-2012, 06:06 PM   #300
Jeeper
 
free78's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Seminole, Florida
Posts: 238
We do not need a ban. What good did the ban do in Connecticut? Did the ban stop anything? We have laws now that need more enforcement not more laws that still will not be fully enforced. Can anyone tell me when a gun has killed anyone? Heck hurt anyone for that matter! Guns do not kill. High cap mags do not kill. I understand there are people on here that don't have guns, don't like guns, never want a gun and don't understand why others do but don't force your believes on the others. Someone posted earlier that an AR is not for hunting, I use mine for that exact purpose.

__________________
1997 TJ
2011 Liberty
free78 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Download our Mobile App

» Network Links
»Jeep Parts
» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:51 PM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC