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Old 04-15-2013, 09:13 PM   #661
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Also, pistols should not be sold to anyone on antipsychotics, antidepressants, etc. No doctor asking B/S, if you have a prescription you can't purchase one.

It specifically provides for allocation of arms for military purpose by the state among its population, completely preventing the need of a standing army. Pistols are not protected by this; M4s and Ma Dueces are. I would like to see the 86 ban and Hughes amendment revoked and repealed, the NFA act revised, and THEN pistols set to a nationally reciprocating ccw system of 'registration'.
Now for some Doc B/S there is a little problem with the antidepressant and antipsychotics part because many of those drugs have many uses beyond mental uses, many are used to control seizures, blood pressure, help with nerve pain. and if you have ever taken flexoril (a muscle relaxant) for pulled shoulder etc.. you have taken a tricyclic anti-depressant. Those 2 "styles" of drug are actually a huge variety of drugs that have multiple uses and indications. If you include all the drugs that can be used as antipsychotic and antidepressants you would eliminate a shocking percentage of this country. Now if you want to address a drug that is implicated in 50% of homicides alcohol is a good option but we all know how that goes and I like my beer far to much

Now when it comes to the M4's and Ma Dueces, the 86 ban etc, where do i sign?!

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Old 04-15-2013, 09:27 PM   #662
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Thanks for the rational discussion, its hard to find on this topic. I am fairly liberal on most things except for issues that effect offroading fun ( jeeps or ATV), guns or a persons right to their own religion-whatever that may be.

We do agree on one thing, we both know the second amendment does not give rights, but I believe it limits the government's ability to effect my life. My litmus test is to ask one simple question. If you think a rule fits for the second amendment, apply it to the first. If it works for both, then its good one. Otherwise, its a bad decision.

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Old 04-19-2013, 12:13 AM   #663
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If guns are the problem why did it take so many years .. Gun have been around and where easier to get in pass years why now are gun the problem?? Maybe we should say why do people feel the need to kill . Not try to blame guns as killers ..
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:03 AM   #664
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There is so much I would like to say on this topic, but without reading the whole thread first I would probably just be repeating a lot that has already been said by some of you. I did come across a statement/analogy that I like a lot. It says...

"Trying to control crime with gun control it like trying to control drunk driving by making it harder for sober people to buy cars."
Just saying...
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:39 AM   #665
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Sensible and law-abiding citizens do not commit heinous crimes and they have a right to defend themselves against people who do.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:43 PM   #666
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Sensible and law-abiding citizens do not commit heinous crimes and they have a right to defend themselves against people who do.
couldnt have said it better myself.

Here is the thing that a lot of people dont get. Say Obama pulled some strings and got all guns banned RIGHT NOW. With the highest gun ownership levels in history.

Who is going to come get them from us?
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:21 PM   #667
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It's not up to the government to interpret the constitution. If the government thinks that chiseling away at the types of firearms available to the public will help prevent mass murder, I'm sure I don't have to say they're mistaken. As we've seen in the past, bombs that can kill massive amounts of people in seconds are easily made from materials available in home improvement stores. These sick, twisted individuals that go on killing sprees will always adapt and find new ways to kill.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:51 PM   #668
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couldnt have said it better myself.

Here is the thing that a lot of people dont get. Say Obama pulled some strings and got all guns banned RIGHT NOW. With the highest gun ownership levels in history.

Who is going to come get them from us?
martial law
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:10 PM   #669
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martial law
But you still have to come and get it.

I know I wouldn't want to try
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:01 AM   #670
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But you still have to come and get it.

I know I wouldn't want to try
They have scenerios for this. It involves an overwhelming amount of force, and a disdain for the Constitution. Funny how bloodhounds have been pulling lost hikers, cadavers, and convicts out of the southern forests for 200 years, yet couldn't find a man with 3 holes in him on foot from a known origin several blocks away.


Attachment 246603



Attachment 246602



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Attachment 246605

Don't think for a second that politicians would be afraid to send other people to take from you, they do it everyday.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:58 AM   #671
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couldnt have said it better myself.

Here is the thing that a lot of people dont get. Say Obama pulled some strings and got all guns banned RIGHT NOW. With the highest gun ownership levels in history.

Who is going to come get them from us?
Perhaps this is the purpose behind the purchase of millions of rounds of ammunition by Homeland Security?
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:57 AM   #672
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Perhaps this is the purpose behind the purchase of millions of rounds of ammunition by Homeland Security?
And the thousands of urban control vehicles.. But maybe that's a little too much conspiracy theory? Haha
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:59 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by "BlueRidgeYJ;

Don't think for a second that politicians would be afraid to send other people to take from you, they do it everyday.
I don't know many soldiers who swear to uphold the orders of the senate, house or the president. Last I checked it was to the constitution, a document that very clearly says you can't do that.

Sorry for the double post, couldn't figure out how to multi quote from my phone
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:03 PM   #674
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http://www.american-buddha.com/taxidark.93c.jpg
http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/wp-con...oprisoners.jpg

Like these American soldiers did?

How about the apache battalion that fired on innocent civilians 3 years ago, and faced no consequences for it? A while later they did it again, then fired on the first responders (ya know, ambulance drivers, emts, firefighters) killing not only the original group of civilians, but also any who attempted to abide Luke, and be a Good Samaritan. Two small children were in the van that attempted to assist the dying men, one was killed almost instantly, the other, a 7 year old girl, had glass shatter into her face and eyes blinding her, had her dad and brother explode all over her, and was shot herself. For helping a wounded man - the same tactics Nazis used on the fields of Europe to try and bait GIs into sniper traps. An illegal act, btw, even during war.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:...04-19-93-d.jpg
Or there is always our national police, seen here (with nat guardsmen) pulling down and driving through a gymnasium. Next, they slammed the barrel of the tank through that tall structure you see, a storage cooler for the kitchen and the only reinforced room of the complex - then they pumped it full of tear gas. It was full of women and children; they all died.

Or how about my avatar, that picture of a Kent State kid was taken moments after he and 3 others were shot dead by 29 national guardsmen for protesting.

I could write 5 pages on it, but just please tell me you are joking. Nobody is that naive.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:58 PM   #675
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http://www.american-buddha.com/taxidark.93c.jpg
http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/wp-con...oprisoners.jpg

Like these American soldiers did?

How about the apache battalion that fired on innocent civilians 3 years ago, and faced no consequences for it? A while later they did it again, then fired on the first responders (ya know, ambulance drivers, emts, firefighters) killing not only the original group of civilians, but also any who attempted to abide Luke, and be a Good Samaritan. Two small children were in the van that attempted to assist the dying men, one was killed almost instantly, the other, a 7 year old girl, had glass shatter into her face and eyes blinding her, had her dad and brother explode all over her, and was shot herself. For helping a wounded man - the same tactics Nazis used on the fields of Europe to try and bait GIs into sniper traps. An illegal act, btw, even during war.

File:Mountcarmelfire04-19-93-d.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Or there is always our national police, seen here (with nat guardsmen) pulling down and driving through a gymnasium. Next, they slammed the barrel of the tank through that tall structure you see, a storage cooler for the kitchen and the only reinforced room of the complex - then they pumped it full of tear gas. It was full of women and children; they all died.

Or how about my avatar, that picture of a Kent State kid was taken moments after he and 3 others were shot dead by 29 national guardsmen for protesting.

I could write 5 pages on it, but just please tell me you are joking. Nobody is that naive.
I'm sure you could find lots of crap out on the internet about how bush planted bombs in the WTC and had them go off when the planes hit too, doesn't make it true; and I've got lots of better things to do rather then argue about alleged events like this.

My point is the vast majority of the armed forces would rather turn their M16 toward DC before they ever use them to shred the Constitution. There are always bad apples in every field (Marines urinating on dead as a proved example), but its going to take a lot more then a few bad apples to sway an entire military.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:44 PM   #676
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We were sworn to follow the lawful orders.
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:25 PM   #677
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...alleged events like this...

Or do you deny Abu Graib/Gitmo, Kent State, the Branch Dividian raid... which one? They all happened. Apparently the other child did live, I was wrong there. I did not mention, though, that the two 'armed insurgents' that warranted the engagement were a rueters reporter and his driver.

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My point is the vast majority of the armed forces would rather turn their M16 toward DC before they ever use them to shred the Constitution. There are always bad apples in every field (Marines urinating on dead as a proved example), but its going to take a lot more then a few bad apples to sway an entire military.

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We were sworn to follow the lawful orders.
You're absolutely right. The video also shows how the INDIVIDUAL soldiers do care, but enmass they are very dangerous, oath or not. There is also the element of hired soldiers, nearly exclusively ex-spec forces, that shoot for profit, and our remote control killbots. My point is a politician can always find somebody to hand a badge and send for your stuff, Constitutionally or not.

Don't get me wrong, I know US soldiers would not line up to shoot Americans, but in a scared group, like Boston in the 1770s, 1 shot leads to a masacre. No offense intended to the individuals, but permanent warriors have no place in that same Constitution.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:14 PM   #678
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Or do you deny Abu Graib/Gitmo, Kent State, the Branch Dividian raid... which one? They all happened. Apparently the other child did live, I was wrong there. I did not mention, though, that the two 'armed insurgents' that warranted the engagement were a rueters reporter and his driver.

You're absolutely right. The video also shows how the INDIVIDUAL soldiers do care, but enmass they are very dangerous, oath or not. There is also the element of hired soldiers, nearly exclusively ex-spec forces, that shoot for profit, and our remote control killbots. My point is a politician can always find somebody to hand a badge and send for your stuff, Constitutionally or not.

Don't get me wrong, I know US soldiers would not line up to shoot Americans, but in a scared group, like Boston in the 1770s, 1 shot leads to a masacre. No offense intended to the individuals, but permanent warriors have no place in that same Constitution.
Man their comm is awesome. It looks like normal day in a war zone to me. If it was a rpg that could have been a bunch of dead American's. It was just a bad day. They are calm because of they are professionals at what they do. It wasent like they were shooting wildly into the city. The bongo truck was an idiot for taking his Children into a active shooting zone. Also I didn't see one guy or girl raise his hand in surrender. They all acted like active fighters.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:59 PM   #679
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Man their comm is awesome. It looks like normal day in a war zone to me. If it was a rpg that could have been a bunch of dead American's. It was just a bad day. They are calm because of they are professionals at what they do. It wasent like they were shooting wildly into the city. The bongo truck was an idiot for taking his Children into a active shooting zone. Also I didn't see one guy or girl raise his hand in surrender. They all acted like active fighters.
It was a Rueters reporter and cameraman. They were touring a site bombed by the Alliance of the Willing. How does that mimic an active fighter? Or do you mean because they tried not to get shot to death? So if someone shot at you, you would stand still and raise your hands - good luck with that.

It was not a combat zone until the cameraman was engaged by a computer controlled 30mm cannon from a great distance, making a positive ID of the 'target' obviously impossible.

The US Constitution says we shouldn't have 'professional' soldiers, the authors feared it would lead to imperialistic wars. I happen to think they were right.

Had an additional device gone off in the terrorist war attack on us in Boston 4 minutes later in the same spot, would the responders be 'at fault'? Get real. We signed treaties about shooting medics, even ones in fatigues. Targeting those who respond to offer medical aid is cowardly and an act of true terrorism. Even in a war zone.
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:07 PM   #680
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It's easy to talk from your computer. Look when the guy was crawling they stopped firing. Was even nagging at him to pick up a weapon. So give them credit. They showed restrain when needed. By the way if I was on the ground and saw a guy pointing a black tube around a corner I would put a round in him too. But it really shows your combat experience is from your Xbox.
Still the best part of the video is the comm. that staff was clear. A lot better than when I was in desert storm, Somalia, or Kosovo, amazing just amazing. Thanks for the video it gives me a hard on when we blow stuff up.
By the way you probably think the bastard that use road side bombs detonated from a cell phone from afar are true acts of courage or the butt wipes that train to hi jack civilian planes filled with mothers and children and purposely crash them into buildings filled with people just going to work those guys must get medals in your book.
It's ok this country will always have guys like me to do what needs to be done no matter if its wrong or right.
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Old 05-17-2013, 07:06 AM   #681
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Nope. No Xbox, and what on Earth would give you the implication I like the Saudis and Pakistanis that attacked New York? Because I value human life? Because I adhere to the Bill of Rights? Because I think the 86 individuals currently at Gitmo with no links to terror are being held in violation of human rights? Nice defense to your 'responders are at fault' logic train, btw.

Terrorism, as defined, is an attempt to coerce through the use of force and fear. If you are afraid to help the wounded because you too will be blown up, youre being terrorized (fear has coerced you) - in NY, Boston, Baghdad, Basra, Kabul, or anywhere else.

Restraint.... like those same pilots showed the 2 militants that surrendered? See, they decided while a helicopter can be enough to send alone, it cannot arrest people. So they shot and killed em. Guns on the deck, hands in the air. Shot and killed. Is Bobby Bales your hero or something?

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It's ok this country will always have guys like me to do what needs to be done no matter if its wrong or right.
Thanks, that's my original point. It would be wrong to confiscate guns in violation of our Rights, but nationalists would do it. Because the govt said it needed to be done.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:58 AM   #682
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Nope. No Xbox, and what on Earth would give you the implication I like the Saudis and Pakistanis that attacked New York? Because I value human life? Because I adhere to the Bill of Rights? Because I think the 86 individuals currently at Gitmo with no links to terror are being held in violation of human rights? Nice defense to your 'responders are at fault' logic train, btw.

Terrorism, as defined, is an attempt to coerce through the use of force and fear. If you are afraid to help the wounded because you too will be blown up, youre being terrorized (fear has coerced you) - in NY, Boston, Baghdad, Basra, Kabul, or anywhere else.

Restraint.... like those same pilots showed the 2 militants that surrendered? See, they decided while a helicopter can be enough to send alone, it cannot arrest people. So they shot and killed em. Guns on the deck, hands in the air. Shot and killed. Is Bobby Bales your hero or something?

Thanks, that's my original point. It would be wrong to confiscate guns in violation of our Rights, but nationalists would do it. Because the govt said it needed to be done.
I never said I would what the government tells me regardless if its right or wrong. Plus I don't think a war on foreign land fall under the bill of rights.
Let me put it to you this way because of people like you now our GI's need to be shot at twice before they can shot back. If you haven't notice American casualties have doubled per year.
To me a American life is far more valuable then any foreign fighter.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:25 AM   #683
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It's good to see a legitimate debate, but it should go without saying that you guys have to play nice. If this spills into overt hostility, it'll be gone.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:48 PM   #684
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I never said I would do what the government tells me regardless if its right or wrong. Plus I don't think a war on foreign land fall under the bill of rights.
Ya kind-of did, though I know you were being a bit sarcastic there.
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...sing-stun-gun/
Don't think for a second some wouldn't - this is a veteran having his door kicked in by the police because his neighbor said they were having a DV episode, except the SCOTUS said you can't do that: "Such an exception would enable any person seeking to harass another to set in motion an intrusive, embarrassing police search of the targeted person simply by placing an anonymous call.…" Justice Ginsburg, on the courts decision of Flordia v. J.L., Mar 2000, about using anonymous tips as probable cause. These cops violated the civil rights of Mr. Woods (and company), period. Slippery slope.

The Bill of Rights (and entire US Constitution) is not for you. It is not for me, or for Habeeb the Iraqi. It is not for Sammy from Australia, or Debbie in Dallas. It is a rule book for the US Government, and only for the US govt (though it does supercede all lower authorities and many nations have copied it since). The Right to not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment is a HUMAN Right, inalienable at your creation. If you do not think an Afghani has the Right not to be subjected to unwarranted search and seizure, by our governments proclomation, then you empower that same government to remove YOUR firearms, or quarter troops at your expense, or restrict public demonstrations (whoops, already have done that), or restrict religous practices (needless to say admitting the Afghani, Iraqi, Syrian, Libyan, N Korean, etc government does not have to offer human rights to US civilians and soldiers during war). You see the slippery slope when we create 'us' and 'them' in regards to accepted human rights, like the BoR, yes? Here's a hint - think 1950's in, say, my home - Atlanta. Fair application of laws? How about 1850? Because it doesn't say ANYTHING about non-white or non-land owners; it must not have applied to those people, either.

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Let me put it to you this way because of people like you now our GI's need to be shot at twice before they can shot back. If you haven't notice American casualties have doubled per year.
If making sure you are actually killing 'evil doers' is too difficult, we need to re-evaluate our ability to wage war, particularly at such an extreme financial, social, and political - needless to say human - cost. The end does not justify the means. Notice how the Apache was not fired on once, let alone twice... perhaps that is why the rules of engagement changed. Or maybe it's because I told people about it. But if that's the case, then why can't I get Gitmo closed? I keep trying, lol.
I have also noticed the dramatic increase in suicides of our armed forces personel. More than doubled, actually. Maybe we should likewise look into why our professional soldiers, like Robert Bales, are going crazy instead of sending more kids to chase ghosts.

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To me a American life is far more valuable then any foreign fighter.
Agreed 1,000%. 1,000,000%. But what about a foreign civilian, or children? Collateral damage? Or victims? How about US civilians killed in the war on terror? Collateral damage, or victims? All life is precious. All of it. If some bad trees grow in the forest, you don't slash-burn the whole thing, or clearcut it. You logically and methodically extract the bad elements while giving the least amount of exposure necessary to contaminate as few as possible good, or at least otherwise nuetral, trees. This is no longer how our remote control munitions department is run, it is much more slash-burn. From a computer screen and joystick it is 'so easy' to sit behind. Ya know, like an Xbox. Unfortunately, the consequence is years and years of future attacks on American interests globally.

Our legacy? Fear. That is what we will pass to our children, along with crushing debt, and frankly that just sickens me.

...

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It's good to see a legitimate debate, but it should go without saying that you guys have to play nice. If this spills into overt hostility, it'll be gone.
We try... I apologize to all if I overstepped any bounds, you fun killin ninja. =)
In addition, thanks to the other posters for keeping this as a civil discussion, this is the ONLY forum I have found where that is the normal; I guess all y'all Jeepers are just good folk.
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Old 05-18-2013, 12:02 AM   #685
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martial law
that is EXACTLY the answer I was looking for. now I would like you to go to any Navy squadron, Marine corps or Army unit and see how long it takes you to meet someone from Texas who spent most of his childhood hunting and would actually follow an unlawful order like that. I give you 10 minutes. Senior Chief knows what im talking about.

so that leaves us with police. there are not nearly enough of them that the ones that actually oppose civilian gun ownership would be able to do anything. at least not down here.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:33 AM   #686
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that is EXACTLY the answer I was looking for. now I would like you to go to any Navy squadron, Marine corps or Army unit and see how long it takes you to meet someone from Texas who spent most of his childhood hunting and would actually follow an unlawful order like that. I give you 10 minutes. Senior Chief knows what im talking about.

so that leaves us with police. there are not nearly enough of them that the ones that actually oppose civilian gun ownership would be able to do anything. at least not down here.
True, but all they have to do is turn off the pumps. In 3 days, you'll likely either A) gladly turn in your guns for gas coupons or food, or B) gladly wear a patch and take others guns for gas coupons or food. Particularly those city dwellers with children. Far-fetched? You bet-cha. But possible none-the-less.

Also, don't forget your Department of War recently (Feb '13) dropped Posse Comitatus (1878) and trumped the Insurection Act of 1807, allowing Federal soldiers (not Nat Gaurd) to police within America without Congressional OR Presidential consent (unconstitutionally) making arrests, removing firearms (and gasoline) from stores and individuals, and, among other things, imprisoning citizens. This is the #1 reason permanant soldiers are prohibited in the Constitution, and the #1 reason the Right to keep and bear arms exists, so they can't 'bring in the tanks'. But the soldiers would say no? Then why would you enlist to do the bidding of those that would want it done? You did see the militarization of Boston, yes? In blatant violation of the 4th Amendment.
http://i.imgur.com/ZdLUN2ih.jpg
You can clearly see this HMMWV is a 'Military Police' vehicle, not a Federal, State, or Local police vehicle. Had they not changed protocol, that really couldn't have happened with any pretense of legality. And how about that assualt with a deadly weapon... what would that cop do if the homeowner responded in kind to having a full auto assault rifle pointed at their face, in their own home. Think those gaurdsmen would've admitted they will raid citizens homes two months ago? Looking for 1 man with 3 boolit holes on foot?
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Old 05-18-2013, 12:46 PM   #687
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I was in the Philippines during people's power. You would be surprised what one man with the willingness to die while only armed with the national flower can stop. It also could have gone the other way if the officer ordered to fire.
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Old 05-18-2013, 01:26 PM   #688
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What it all comes down to is at what point are we ready to fight and die. The revolutionary war was fought over far less than we are allowing today.
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:12 PM   #689
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Quote:
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I was in the Philippines during people's power. You would be surprised what one man with the willingness to die while only armed with the national flower can stop. It also could have gone the other way if the officer ordered to fire.
Exactly.

Attachment 250743

It's a fine line and the sword cuts both ways.
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:18 PM   #690
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I just got home from the range. BZO my new bolt gun. It controls good. Very good 1/4 mil at 100 yards.

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