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Old 12-21-2012, 06:50 PM   #61
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Maybe we should reach way back to the root of the problem. Why are these people in such a state of mind as to commit these inconceivable acts? Maybe we should investigate pesticides, drugs, pharmaceuticles as a cause.

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Old 12-21-2012, 07:09 PM   #62
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Naa, coyote, more of an introspective about my tendency to skim things in long threads.



I get your point here, but it is even more obsurd because I do not think anyone is saying caliber. They are saying accessories. Mags, grips, stocks, and stabbers. These somehow make them inherently dangerous. Somehow.



Not sure how I implied that. If we want the truth to be told about the attack, why aren't we telling the truth about the attack? But now we digress...

Big Joe 'il set em straight.
Clearly, you didn't imply that.

My point is that this "fun fact" which you so eloquently corrected, is of no comfort or importance to the parents/family of the dead Americans. In other words it make no difference. But it speaks volumes that you can roll on the floor laughing that you set us straight on such a trivial fun fact to such an important tragedy. A tragedy in which, till this day we still don't know why our government sat back while watching the events unfold in a live broadcast and turned their backs on those American. And days later, from our president down lied about what happend...but I too will digress!!

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Old 12-21-2012, 07:10 PM   #63
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Yep, man has always found a way to murder one another, and it can't be prevented in all cases. If you believe in the Bible, the first person born was also the first murderer which speaks to our innate violence. But does anyone here really believe that the fact that America leads the world, by FAR, in mass murders has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that we also lead the world in private gun ownership?

Maybe that nutbar in Connecticut could have achieved the same body count with just the pistols...but if he'd had to reload and it gave a little more time for the police to get there, or a little more time for the teachers to hide the kids, or even just kept him from shooting 26 women and children 3+ times each (basically guaranteeing no survivors) within the space of a few minutes...if even one of those little souls could have been spared then I think it's worth taking a hard look at.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:24 PM   #64
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Some folks have to be able show their manhood some how, and guns provide one way at least.
Interesting argument you bring up...

A Constitutional right equates (in you opinion) to male prowess or manhood.

That doesn't seems like a well though out or respectful argument but it is your opinion.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:26 PM   #65
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GOD created man Sam Colt made them equal. only a gun can let your 110lb wife,mother,daughter,sister,grandmother ect. defend them self against a 250 lb manic. as a father of three sons in school i would fully support (trained and armed) teachers in every class room. I've all ways taught them gun safety and respect and have had a pistol every mile that we have traveled. with the understanding that they DO NOT TOUCH IT UNLESS ONE OF OUR LIVES DEPEND ON IT.. there are no lifeguards on the gene pool! just keep drinking the koolaid
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:44 PM   #66
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Clearly, you didn't imply that.

My point is that this "fun fact" which you so eloquently corrected, is of no comfort or importance to the parents/family of the dead Americans. In other words it make no difference. But it speaks volumes that you can roll on the floor laughing that you set us straight on such a trivial fun fact to such an important tragedy. A tragedy in which, till this day we still don't know why our government sat back while watching the events unfold in a live broadcast and turned their backs on those American. And days later, from our president down lied about what happend...but I too will digress!!
(Sorry fun killin ninja; I do try)

Uh, for real? They were hung out to dry because they weren't "there", it wasn't a consolate, embassy, or any other diplomatic facility. They were beyond the line, working the local politics. That is why a drone for surveilence was there, with no munitions (how they watched). It was a ghost house, dig? Can't "bring in da choppa" to a nonexistant facility. Problem is, important dude got caught there. Had Ambassador Stevens not been killed, you would have heard a VERY different story, if you heard anything at all. What is to be gained by the empowered by truth telling now? Nothing new about the fact they just will not do that, bamers, bush, clinton, doesn't matter. Gotta go a LONG way to get honesty. Even longer to find someone who faught for the common man.

With all due respect, I am not sure tragedy is the right word for sending people to foreign lands to unofficially meddle in local politics with deadly consequence. On second thought, maybe it is. They were not active military, and were not on an official assignment for the State Department, the agency charged with all diplomatic missions. These facts are muddled in the screams for why Obama didn't have a C130 overhead to gun those bastards down. If you knew they weren't there, you wouldn't ask why. They should have been removed from that situation 2 weeks prior but, for whatever reason, they did not increase security or withdrawl them and it led to a very embarrasing incident for us as a Nation - and a world ender for the families of these folks. IMO, they had no daggum business there to begin with. I do think it is a shame. A shame we spent a lot of money to educate and train them, to inspire them, to facilitate them. And none to withdrawl them, to secure them, or to protect them. That's just poor investing in persons and money.

Also, my post was a correction on the notion that "ignorant complacency" was the order of the day. It was certainly not, they knew full well the risk of having agents there.

Now for some attempt at getting back on track here,
The best way to implement school security is local districts hiring resource officers, or local LEOs that work specifically for the district. A national department is NOT needed for this, and will just become another bureaucratic pit of corruption.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:02 PM   #67
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Some fuel for the fire. A representative in my home state is proposing to have a few staff members in each school trained and armed.

Oregon State Rep. Proposes Arming Teachers To Prevent Shootings | RealClearPolitics


And as far as the cost of up-armored schools goes vs the cost of training 2-3 people on how to safely and accurately handle and fire a weapon?!?!? Come on. Seriously?!?! The locking system cost plus installation as well as the cost of bullet proofing all the doors and windows would FAR exceed the cost of training a couple school staff members. Schools are hurting for money as it is.
The NRA has stated that they will supply the necessary training for free.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:10 PM   #68
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Should we give teachers a broom and dustpan too? Saves on janitors. Maybe we can see where they live, then they can just take a bus home and drop off all the kids on the way.

Security secures and educators educate. Let's keep it that way.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:14 PM   #69
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Yep, man has always found a way to murder one another, and it can't be prevented in all cases. If you believe in the Bible, the first person born was also the first murderer which speaks to our innate violence. But does anyone here really believe that the fact that America leads the world, by FAR, in mass murders has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that we also lead the world in private gun ownership?

Maybe that nutbar in Connecticut could have achieved the same body count with just the pistols...but if he'd had to reload and it gave a little more time for the police to get there, or a little more time for the teachers to hide the kids, or even just kept him from shooting 26 women and children 3+ times each (basically guaranteeing no survivors) within the space of a few minutes...if even one of those little souls could have been spared then I think it's worth taking a hard look at.
We also have a larger population with a lot more of those "nutbars". Why do people feel that less dead children is better? 10 round magazines can be changed out extremely quickly. But let's say 20 round magazines were banned and this guy only had one 10 round magazine, whether it be in a pistol or a highly lethal assulat rifle. Would we all be happy right now with a body count of only 10?

Your line of thinking sickens me. One murdered child is one too many. If Diane Feinstein is important enough to have a contingent of armed guards, why are our children not worthy of one?

Mayor Bloomberg wants to ban all guns. Is he willing to walk the streets on NYC at night alone, without his armed security force?
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:18 PM   #70
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Should we give teachers a broom and dustpan too? Saves on janitors. Maybe we can see where they live, then they can just take a bus home and drop off all the kids on the way.

Security secures and educators educate. Let's keep it that way.
Agreed, however if any of those teachers are ex-military and have CCW, they should be allowed to carry if they wish and to avail themselves of the free NRA training.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:29 PM   #71
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The NRA has stated that they will supply the necessary training for free.
Are they going to provide background checks and psychological screening on their dime as well? I'm quite serious about this.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:30 PM   #72
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Agreed, however if any of those teachers are ex-military and have CCW, they should be allowed to carry if they wish and to avail themselves of the free NRA training.
Different conversation; if it is a choice thing of them having the right to carry there is no onus to protect. Lesson one with ccw (well maybe lesson 12 or so), you never, never HAVE to pull your weapon if you are not comfortable. Police/security does.

As far as that conversation, I do not think that teachers have the right to carry at school, trained or otherwise. We have already accepted, as a society at large, that upon entering a school building you forfeit certain rights. As a student or faculty member you are merely subject to reasonable suspicion, a much lower standard than probable cause, for searches and investigations. This is for the greater safety of all, as so much damage can be perpatrated so quickly to people legally required to be there. I would liken it to police deparments. You don't get to bring your own gun there, and they are fine. Secure doors, armed gaurds. No need to protect yourself in a secure facility.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:47 PM   #73
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Are they going to provide background checks and psychological screening on their dime as well? I'm quite serious about this.
Background checks are done when the firearm is purchased. Psychological screening is done as well. It is current;y defined as not having been confined to a mental facility for 30 consecutive days.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:55 PM   #74
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Would we all be happy right now with a body count of only 10?
Oh come on, of course I'm not saying there's an acceptable number of dead children. I'm arguing with those people that claim that faster shooting power had nothing to do with the number of fatalities; that even without multiple 30-round magazines this untrained kid could still have been able to shoot 26 people multiple times in minutes (one was shot 11 times per the medical examiner), so therefore we might as well just throw our hands up and do nothing.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:01 PM   #75
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Oh come on, of course I'm not saying there's an acceptable number of dead children. I'm arguing with those people that claim that faster shooting power had nothing to do with the number of fatalities; that even without multiple 30-round magazines this untrained kid could still have been able to shoot 26 people multiple times in minutes (one was shot 11 times per the medical examiner), therefore we might as well just throw our hands up and do nothing.
The medical examiner also said all shots were with the AR, while the police alledged it was in the parking lot. Misinformation deluxe up there.

A simple understanding of physics and small amounts of sheet metal and you can make whatever size mag you want from any existing 5, 10, 15, or 20 rnd mag. Pistols are semiautomatics designed for concealment and close quarters use, yet obvious large rifles are more dangerous, even when firing the same, or very similar, rounds?
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:09 PM   #76
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Oh come on, of course I'm not saying there's an acceptable number of dead children. I'm arguing with those people that claim that faster shooting power had nothing to do with the number of fatalities; that even without multiple 30-round magazines this untrained kid could still have been able to shoot 26 people multiple times in minutes (one was shot 11 times per the medical examiner), so therefore we might as well just throw our hands up and do nothing.
We need to do something that will actually have a positive effect. Banning weapons and limiting magazines is just political feel good legislation. They can all pat themselves on the back and thhink they've actually done something. Are you aware that Columbine took place during the last AWB?

Let's attack go after mental illness. In the meantime let's protect our children NOW. When Christmas break is over let's have protection in our schools. If you did not listen to the NRA press conference today, go to www.nra.org and listen to it.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:18 PM   #77
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Maybe we should reach way back to the root of the problem. Why are these people in such a state of mind as to commit these inconceivable acts? Maybe we should investigate pesticides, drugs, pharmaceuticles as a cause.
I'd love to see some legitimate documentation showing pesticides and prescription drugs are causing mass shootings. I think if there was, Merck, Bayer, and Eli Lilly, with their billion dollar-deep pockets would have been sued in court.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:33 PM   #78
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We need to do something that will actually have a positive effect. Banning weapons and limiting magazines is just political feel good legislation. They can all pat themselves on the back and thhink they've actually done something. Are you aware that Columbine took place during the last AWB?

Let's attack go after mental illness. In the meantime let's protect our children NOW. When Christmas break is over let's have protection in our schools. If you did not listen to the NRA press conference today, go to www.nra.org and listen to it.

Mental health is a joke in this country. I know....I deal with it every day. Insurance companies reimburse providers a fraction of what they'll pay for non-mental health visits....thus there aren't nearly as many psychiatrists as there needs to be.
Also, not everyone who's "touched" in the brain exhibits outwards signs/symptoms.....so how do you figure out who's going to go postal and who's just blowing off steam when they say they "hate" this or that or say they "want to kill" someone? Currently there's no blood test or MRI scan to determine who's bipolar or schizoaffective. Even if there was, the vast majority of the mentally ill won't kill anyone.
The best we can hope for as far as doing a better job with mental health is to realize it's a problem, demand insurance companies step up and offer fair reimbursement for taking care of these folks, destigmatize mental health so folks dealing with issues aren't afraid to seek help (try getting a top secret security clearance in the military if you've been diagnosed with PTSD or depression and are seeing a therapist).
Also, it's about time those who have identified threats speak up immediately and make sure the authorities are notified. The Aurora shooter had his therapist scared...she blew the whistle and the school administration dropped the ball because he was in the process of dropping out of school. The attitude of "it's not our problem anylonger" cost a lot of people their lives.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:39 PM   #79
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I agree. Getting help for someone who needs it is nearly impossible. There was a report that Lanza's mother was trying to get him committed but couldn't, possibly setting him off. Mental illness isn't like a cold, it doesn't go away. Symptoms can be lessened but it cannot be cured.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:42 PM   #80
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Texas town allows teachers to carry concealed guns - LakePlacidNews.com | News and information on the Lake Placid and Essex County region of New York - Lake Placid News
A Texas school where teachers can carry. They are actually compared to Air Marshals in the article, nearest cops are 30 minutes away.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:46 PM   #81
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Texas town allows teachers to carry concealed guns - LakePlacidNews.com | News and information on the Lake Placid and Essex County region of New York - Lake Placid News
A Texas school where teachers can carry. They are actually compared to Air Marshals in the article, nearest cops are 30 minutes away.
School of less than 105, K-12. My graduating class was 450. The freshman class at that time was 2k. The High School attd my senior year was just under 6k. Not quite the same scenario...
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:28 PM   #82
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Not going to harp at all, but rifles, pistols and whatever else can be used wrong is nothing more than a tool. they are more efficient tools than others. but any thing can destroy anything else. rocks, hammers, knives, screwdrivers, rifles, pistols are nothing more than tools. so to blame the tools is a cop-out. we should focus our shift on the bleeding hearts. being a parent of three wonderful children, and 16 years of service to date in the military, i have noticed that the main problem is society. When alot of us were younger and did something wrong, we were punished to learn not to do that. AKA spanked, switched, or fitting correction. in modern times, thanks to the bleeding hearts, when a child is wrong or wrongs someone else, can we spank or discipline NO. we are to talk to the child, maybe put them in the corner.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:32 PM   #83
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IMO we need to get back to the days of old and correct our youth properly. I for one will not spank, but have found a nice "PT smoking" to help correct my children. My son is seven, when he acts out towards me or my wife, comes home from school and had to move his clip, i take him in the front yard and conduct some PT to correct him. It does not hurt him and he remembers what not to do. Point being that society needs to quit being so darn liberal.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:37 PM   #84
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Okay...high magazine capacity weapons. Whatever. So what does AR stand for?
The AR designation refers to Armalite, the original manufacture of the AR15.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:40 PM   #85
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No gun control is going to stop people from killing people. No spoon control is going to stop people from getting fat. No law is going to stop criminals from breaking the law. You want to prevent these kinds of attacks? Then find out what makes these people tick. What makes these people do what they do. But there is no answer to those questions. There wasn't when this guy killed 20 kids and 7 adults. There wasn't any answers for the Aurora shooter. None for Columbine. 85 years later there is still no answer for why Andrew Kehoe killed his wife, set his house on fire and blew up a school killing 38 kids, 6 adults and injuring 58 others. Insane people doing insane acts of violence is nothing new. People have been killing people since the beginning of time. And people will continue to kill until the end of time. No feel good laws are going to change that. Maybe if people would properly parent and discipline their kids they wouldn't grow up to be evil little sh**heads. But today if you spank your kid you're an evil bad person. We give everyone a trophy because handling dissapointment is just too hard. And people wonder why society is filled with a bunch of emo cry babies that feel like they should have everything handed to them in life and have no sense of personal responsibility.
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Old 12-21-2012, 10:43 PM   #86
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I haven't read a single serious article about banning ALL guns, or even "taking" the guns that are already out there. The issue is with the easy access to high-capacity assault rifles that allow anyone to shoot dozens of people in seconds. No one in that video, good guys or bad guys, had an AR so it's irrelevant to the problem under discussion.
Actually, yes...the case near the end of the video where the young boy protecting himself and his sister from home invaders in Alberquerque, the boy armed himself with his fathers AR15.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:26 PM   #87
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And we need more fork and spoon control too. Innocent victims like Rosie O'Donnell have been falling prey to these evil devices for far too long.
Food tax is coming!!!
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:28 PM   #88
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I own several handguns.Would banning these assault weapons really matter to me ,yes.Not because I ever plan on buying one but once we let them ban one type of weapon its all over for gun owners.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:36 PM   #89
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I believe the overall objective to the recent uprising being played out by the media and politics isn't about gun control. The objective is to make it easier to label people into categories. Make it easier to condemn someone as a mental defect. To gain control by avoiding a confrontation with the second amendment.

Imagine the cost to society should someone be denied the ability to exercise their God given right to self reliance, self preservation, self determination. They would be eligible for all the social benefits that were once only afforded to people that worked hard and thrived on their own initiative. They would fall on the backs of the conditioned, the conformers, and the few left that the establishment considers worthy.

To remove the rights of citizens, the mental health issue is sure to be tried before an all out "final solution" would be attempted. When the media can manipulate the public into believing there is majority support, the stead fast opposition will become enemies of the state. The ability to label political dissidents as mental defects would remove millions from favorable status within the establishment. In essence, setting the ground work for a power grab that would finish the United States as a sovereign nation, once and forever.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:45 PM   #90
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Will conspiracy theorists be labeled as mental defectives too? Bet they'd be top of the list for extermination because they've got it all figured out. The government would just get them all together in one place and hit 'em with chemtrails.

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