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Old 12-22-2012, 02:18 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by ed98208

...

So to the freedom-ringers on this board: Where do you draw the line, and why? What guns should be available to anyone who can pass a standard background check, and which should be highly restricted to only those with a higher level of licensing? Which weapons should be completely banned from private hands? And do you agree that ANY limitations at all could be interpreted as unconstitutional because the 2nd Amendment sets no limits?
Imo, weapons designed for concealment should be class III. No small arms should be prohibited of the people. If by limitations, you mean no Katusha rockets, then I think most would agree you can't have em. What of Amonium Nitrate? Red phospherous? That isn't stuff that serves a defensive purpose.

Now to stir the pot, because EVERYONE misses WHY we have the 2nd Amendment.
"What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . . Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House of Representatives, August 17, 1789- Elbridge Gerry
The US is not to have a standing army, rather a militia of the states, which has its own right to store weaponry with the members thereof, preventing a need of a standing army. When called out, these members gather arms and assemble, ready to fight. The arms of the 2nd ARE the militaries weapons. With the existance of the US Army, the 2nd is perverted. One should be done away with.

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Old 12-22-2012, 02:19 PM   #122
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One of my favorite signs:
If only Piers Morgan’s neighbors on both sides had these signs.
Piers Morgan to gun-rights advocate: “You’re an unbelievably stupid man, aren’t you?” « Hot Air

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Old 12-22-2012, 02:28 PM   #123
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As a hunter, and former military service person, to me it seems ironic that there is so much debate about the weapons/ guns baseball bats or even hammers for that matter.

To me the issue/ problem came a long time ago when people were allowed to do what they wanted/ lawyer up and not be responsible for their actions.

Bottom line I blame our society and the people who "raised" them...(may not be a parent(s).

People with those kinds of problems will eventually accomplish their goal, no matter what restrictive law is enacted for the law abiding citizens.

What happened to "Right and Wrong" and being ashamed of improper actions?
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:12 PM   #124
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And why should your line take precedence over mine?
Because your jeep is stock.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:13 PM   #125
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Because your jeep is stock.
That is funny.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:22 PM   #126
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Because your jeep is stock.
Better a stock Jeep than a stock brain.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:30 PM   #127
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Better a stock Jeep than a stock brain.
Oh, you have the more advanced government issued brain?
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:52 PM   #128
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Definition of STOCK

1.
a archaic : stump
b archaic : a log or block of wood
c (1) archaic : something without life or consciousness (2) : a dull, stupid, or lifeless person
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:39 PM   #129
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I believe that a ban on "high capacity clips" and a ban on "scary looking semi auto rifles" is against the Constitution. To an extent yes we should have access to "military weapons". Don't even try and say "oh then I guess you should have tanks and grenades and nukes too huh?" That's retarded. Do I think we should have access to a semi automatic rifle? Absolutely.

You do realize the average AR15 is just a semi auto rifle right?
Then you interpretation of the constitution does set limits? Or is "That's retarded"? BTW, why do you believe Madison wrote the 2nd amendment for a newly established republic?
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:08 PM   #130
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Then you interpretation of the constitution does set limits? Or is "That's retarded"? BTW, why do you believe Madison wrote the 2nd amendment for a newly established republic?
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:41 PM   #131
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:51 PM   #132
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I think it is fairly obvious what he is saying.

All small arms should be available to the people at large. Small arms shoot small boolits and are controlled by 1 person, like pistols, rifles, smgs, select fire rifles(full auto), machine guns, sbr's, shotguns, etc. - though I can't interprit anyone elses belief on current class III items and their regulation, I feel select fire, pistols, short barrel rifles, and other weaponry designed for concealment should be class III (available w/ tax stamp and registration). Currently, select fire, sbr's, silencers, and limited explosives are. My change would increase difficulty of purchasing pistols, but would inherintly transfer a concealed carry license with ownership. I also feel select fire should be manufacturerable, something it is not today.

They are not tanks, antitank rockets, grenades or other explosive devices, nuclear weaponry, long range ballistic missles, rail guns, chemical weaponry, etc. These should be by permit only. But in all seriousness these should be owned by states, not congress.

And his overall point is, despite how many times it is said, there is no difference in this:


Attachment 189902

This:

Attachment 189903

And this:

Attachment 189904

They are the exact same rifle, firing the exact same cartridge. None is more dangerous, and therefore in need of prohibition for security of the masses, than any other. Despite the fact one "looks scarier" than the other two.


Oh and it has certainly been established the 2nd was written with the intent of the actual arms of the militia going home with the soldiers, so there would be no national armory subject to invasion or control. This absolutely and unequivocally means "military type arms". Madisons twist was allowing the religous objecters refuse from serving in any militia, being the champion of religous Liberty he was.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:30 PM   #133
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Okaaay...you're missing my point but I suspect that's on purpose. My POINT is that the Constitution does not specifically limit or define the term "arms". The men who wrote it could not have conceived of the ways we've created to kill each other today, just as 200 years from now there will be weapons that make the ones we have now look like rocks and spears. That's why a line has to be drawn (and undoubtedly continue to be redrawn as we invent new ways to kill) somewhere that says "weapons above this line are heavily restricted or for military use only". The debate is where to draw it.

So to the freedom-ringers on this board: Where do you draw the line, and why? What guns should be available to anyone who can pass a standard background check, and which should be highly restricted to only those with a higher level of licensing? Which weapons should be completely banned from private hands? And do you agree that ANY limitations at all could be interpreted as unconstitutional because the 2nd Amendment sets no limits?
Your point makes no sense. The 2A was clearly and precisely written so that it doesn't matter what the future brings, whether it be a semi-auto or a phaser.
Do you think they envisioned you practicing your freedom of speech rights through the internet on a computer or phone? Maybe you should particpate with pencil and paper for the remainder of this discussion.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:39 PM   #134
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Your point makes no sense. The 2A was clearly and precisely written so that it doesn't matter what the future brings, whether it be a semi-auto or a phaser.
Do you think they envisioned you practicing your freedom of speech rights through the internet on a computer or phone? Maybe you should particpate with pencil and paper for the remainder of this discussion.


The Constitution restricts government, it says nothing about me or what I can have.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:41 PM   #135
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^^^^
I could not say it better myself.

Any one see Uncle Ted on Piers Morgan? It was great.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:44 PM   #136
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I haven't looked into the issue in awhile, but my recollection is that the Supreme Court has construed the second amendment in terms of what they believe the founding fathers would have had in mind at the time--personal types of weapons, handguns and rifles and the like.

That's why you are not being denied your constitutional rights when the government prohibits you under law from having explosives, tanks with operational canons, fully automatic weapons, nuclear warheads, battleships, missiles, apache helicopters, etc.

I could have that wrong . . . but it sounds right to me.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:49 PM   #137
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I haven't looked into the issue in awhile, but my recollection is that the Supreme Court has construed the second amendment in terms of what they believe the founding fathers would have had in mind at the time--personal types of weapons, handguns and rifles and the like.

That's why you are not being denied your constitutional rights when the government prohibits you under law from having explosives, tanks with operational canons, fully automatic weapons, nuclear warheads, battleships, missiles, apache helicopters, etc.

I could have that wrong . . . but it sounds right to me.
Almost, my fun killin friend, but automatic weapons are not prohibited the people. They are only required to be registered, because they were legal and could not be made illegal due to the grandpappy clause, leaving all existing weapons in private hands legal for transfer amongst the populace. And cannons aren't typically illegal, either, but do vary by state.

Also, Jon Travolta was allowed to purchase an F16 Fighter Jet, without the weapons control system or any weaponry attachment systems. Still a fighter jet, though.

How cool would it be to have a battleship???
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:00 PM   #138
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Maybe you should particpate with pencil and paper for the remainder of this discussion.
:giggle:
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:05 PM   #139
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...the Supreme Court has construed the second amendment in terms of what they believe the founding fathers would have had in mind...
Unfortunately, they interpret the law, instead of upholding it. Other wise they wouldn't be so blatantly obvious when they vote along party lines. How can they come to any conclusion in a 5-4 vote, when the outcome should always be 9-0 or 0-9.
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:14 PM   #140
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:27 PM   #141
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:giggle:


Attachment 189959

Here is something I put up on my Facebook
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:40 PM   #142
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Here is something I put up on my Facebook
I do think that the four recent mass shooting go deeper. And my be connected. What I find weird is that on the same day of the grade school shooting a similar attack happen in china but the attacker used a knife and according to their state ran media no one died. The the Chinese government used this sample and told the US government it should have a 100% gun ban.
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:22 PM   #143
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Very good article!!!
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:51 PM   #144
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I do think that the four recent mass shooting go deeper. And my be connected. What I find weird is that on the same day of the grade school shooting a similar attack happen in china but the attacker used a knife and according to their state ran media no one died. The the Chinese government used this sample and told the US government it should have a 100% gun ban.
China would LOVE a 100% gun ban in the U.S...we'd be a much softer target. Not going to happen though.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:17 AM   #145
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So do you guys who have AR's get ugly looks now when you tell people you have them? I live in Mississippi so most people around me are pro-gun but now and then when I have somebody talk about how "nobody needs ar15s to hunt whine whine whine" I like to tell them I have 2 and see their reaction.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:30 AM   #146
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So do you guys who have AR's get ugly looks now when you tell people you have them? I live in Mississippi so most people around me are pro-gun but now and then when I have somebody talk about how "nobody needs ar15s to hunt whine whine whine" I like to tell them I have 2 and see their reaction.
Most of the people who know me already know about my gun collection, so they generally know to keep their mouths shut if they don't want to say anything nice.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:34 AM   #147
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So you two believe private citizens should be able to possess the same level of weaponry as the military?
If you re-read it that would be a yes.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:48 AM   #148
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Drix, interesting rant quoted.

Now I see your point. Let teachers choose if they want to carry so that only a few of our children get killed at school. Sound logic. Arm people that the same folks who want to arm them alledge are underworked, overpaid, union blessed and lazy. Do you also believe you should be able to carry, say, in a police station? Are you deprived then?
You see what you want when you distort what I said to fit your view.

If anyone is intent on killing in public like what happened. It's gonna happen, no one will stop those first few people from going down. Sad tragic yes but true, the difference between 27 people dying and 3 people dying are those people who carry.

And don't be ignorant. Teachers are not gonna go to store pick up a gun load it and put it in their pants and take it to school. Such thoughts are silly

The ones who choose to would receive proper training. It's simple, shall be uninfringed. So yah anywhere you cant carry your rights are being violated. With the exception of privately owned property.


I think everyone with "what if's" should probably start posting up facts to at least show one time the "what if" they were talking about happened.

No before some wild what if. No the white house pentagon blah blah blah blah. They are classified areas your more then likely not allowed there anyway. It comes down to making a choice for those who do carry. And btw those places that you can't carry normally have places where you can lock it up while you are
There and pick it up on the way out.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:39 AM   #149
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While we're debating gun control, I think it's germane to the subject to point out that on April 19, 1995, 168 people, including 19 children under the age of 6, were killed in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. No firearms of any kind were used.

On September 11, 2001, in four separate incidents, nearly 3,000 people were killed by two airliners flying into the World Trade Center in New York, the Pentagon in Arlington Virginia and in a field in Shanksville, Pa. No firearms of any kind were used.

You don't need a gun to hurt people. Matter of fact, if you REALLY want to kill a LOT of people, a gun just slows you down.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:45 AM   #150
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Evil will always find a way to raise it’s ugly head…In China they have guards at all the schools because of the sick bastards who go into schools with knives slashing who ever they can.
The Swiss send their soldiers home with their automatic weapons, and yet no gun violence. Why does that work for them? Why would that not work for here?
It makes it hard to blame the guns and only the guns, there is much more to it than guns. Take off the blinders and look at the BIG picture, we live in a violent society, movies, TV, 24-7 news, video games, road rage, violence is all around you every day. How many people are alive today because a good guy had a gun and used it to stop some evil from happening?
The Bath School disaster is the name given to a series of violent events perpetrated by Andrew Kehoe in Bath Township Michigan on May 18, 1927, that killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, and four other adults and injured at least 58 people. Kehoe first killed his wife, set off a major explosion in a school building, and committed suicide with a third explosion. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–14 years of age) attending the Bath consolidated schools. Their deaths constitute the deadliest Mass Murder in a school in United States history.

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