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Old 12-23-2012, 02:58 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavediverjc View Post
I know for a fact that those numbers are bull$h!t.
Exactly... The guns that get traded between non- licensed parties is usually lever action 30-30s, six shooters, bolt action hardware that hasn't been fired in 20 years.

Nobody in their right mind would sell off their "assault weapons", or high capacity hand guns. And if they do, it might account for .1% of the overall sales between non-licensed sellers.

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Old 12-23-2012, 03:12 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Full Spool

Exactly... The guns that get traded between non- licensed parties is usually lever action 30-30s, six shooters, bolt action hardware that hasn't been fired in 20 years.

Nobody in their right mind would sell off their "assault weapons", or high capacity hand guns. And if they do, it might account for .1% of the overall sales between non-licensed sellers.
And what sales happen between me and anyone individual is up to me not the government. as with many other Other in my area most of us only trade or sale privately to CCW holders.

A word of advise. Have a sales receipt signed valid I'd photocopy and the SN of the weapon and keep it forever.

Many people believe because a firearm is registered the government can look up anyone and find you and it not entirely true. This happens only if the government already had to track down that weapon.

So if a weapon you sold turns up hot. They begin following the paper trail from the manufacturer to the dealer to the first owner, etc, etc, etc, to you. If you are left holding the bag with no proof who you sold it to it's gonna be a sticky situation.

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Old 12-23-2012, 03:14 PM   #183
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Thanks for the discussion folks. I'm sure the vast majority of the members here are responsible gun owners.

Merry Christmas
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:16 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Geno
Yea, I too would like to see where that 60% figure came from. If there was a transaction without a BG check, where is the record of it at all. I call BS.
Gun Control, really? What do you think would happen if the left got their way and magically, a complete gun ban went into effect today? No more shootings, right? No dummy, you just took away the right for law abiding citizen to purchase firearms. Do you think lunatics, criminals and crazies purchase guns legally? Really?
And I love the "High Capacity Magazine" argument. Anyone could tape two together and have a bunch in their pocket. Changing a clip is really easy and fast.
It doesn't matter where these numbers come from. The point is they are being use to manipulate the 2nd amendment. Unless pro second amendment people organize and protest for its rights it will be continue to be molested. I suggest hit it where it hurts the most income tax if you work have a no work day.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:45 PM   #185
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I agree, and restricting high round magazines would be simple way to reduce the carnage.
How? You think that a guy who can plan one of these things can't figure out how to buy multiple clips or reload?

I never understand this sort of thing. He can't buy a "high round magazine", but he can buy a drum of fuel oil and a truck load of ammonium nitrate fertilizer? What exactly did you gain there?
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:47 PM   #186
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[QUOTE=sparky;3135865]
Quote:
Originally Posted by drossman View Post
Chicago: 446 school age children shot so far this year with strongest gun laws in country
QUOTE]

While I think Chicago/Illinois gun control laws are ridiculous, the statistics are very misleading. Look at the age breakdown, it is very top-heavy. Almost half are age 17 and 18. They are counting school aged children not school children. There is a difference. Very good possibility the majority of those 17 & 18 year old’s were involved in drugs / gangs.

Bending statistics to your argument is not the best way to win to convince people.

I’ve seen the anti gun side pull the same trick claiming 3000 children are killed by firearms every year. They skew that number by counting as children everybody up to age 21. They also include those serving in the military. I consider children those under puberty. Unfortunately for those pushing the anti-gun agenda, the count becomes rather small.
Sooooo, it's okay to shoot 17-18 year olds? Is that the point here?
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:50 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by pengintamer View Post
There will always be evil people who wish to do harm to others. Ban guns, they'll use a knife, ban knives they'll use a bat. So on and so on. You cannot legislate human nature. Murder is illegal, yet people commit murder. Yes you could argue taking guns away will make it harder. But taking guns away make it harder for innocent people to defend themselfs. I'm a large man, trained in hand to hand, once 5 people tried to jump me leaving a Walmart. Don't know why. Luckily I had my glock on me. I drew down on them and they ran away. Never fired a shot. I truly believe it saved my life having my gun. If I didn't have it Im sure I would of been hospitalized or worse. Guns save lives as well as take them.
I agree. I think it's very important to remember that two of the greatest disasters in America; Oklahoma City and 9/11 were both done with NO firearms at all...at a cost of close to 5,000 people. Yet you really don't hear anything about anyone trying "ban" anybody doing anything there.

That's why, IMO, all this furvor over "gun control" is nothing more that either hysteria or just the desire to do something pointless and ineffective in order to feel good about what you did.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:51 PM   #188
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I went to an accident the other day. It was from a drunk driver. I just wanted to let you all know that not only did I arrest the driver but I had the car towed and it's locked up in impound. That car wont be causing another accident for a while. Maybe it will learn its lesson as well.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:53 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Drix View Post
And what sales happen between me and anyone individual is up to me not the government. as with many other Other in my area most of us only trade or sale privately to CCW holders.

A word of advise. Have a sales receipt signed valid I'd photocopy and the SN of the weapon and keep it forever.

Many people believe because a firearm is registered the government can look up anyone and find you and it not entirely true. This happens only if the government already had to track down that weapon.

So if a weapon you sold turns up hot. They begin following the paper trail from the manufacturer to the dealer to the first owner, etc, etc, etc, to you. If you are left holding the bag with no proof who you sold it to it's gonna be a sticky situation.

And let's remember, in a sale from one private party to another, the firearm was ALREADY in private, non-dealer hands. All it did was move from one private citizen to another. How exactly does that pose a greater danger than we had in the first place? The original buyer is still responsibile for what happens with that firearm unless the buyer registers it.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:56 PM   #190
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Is anyone here familiar with Operation Fast and Furious? The U.S. government was supplying Mexican drug cartels with arms in the hopes that those firearms would be used in crimes in Mexico and the government could point to the fact it was easy for them to fall into the wrong hands and the American People would be begging for more gun control. The operation killed approximately 300 Mexican civilians and Border Agent Brian Terry.

Dont misunderstand me I'm not trying to say that our administration is happy about what happened at Sandy Hook however IMO I think they are trying to use the tragedy to pick up where Fast and Furious failed.
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Old 12-23-2012, 04:12 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by SmugglersBlues
Is anyone here familiar with Operation Fast and Furious? The U.S. government was supplying Mexican drug cartels with arms in the hopes that those firearms would be used in crimes in Mexico and the government could point to the fact it was easy for them to fall into the wrong hands and the American People would be begging for more gun control. The operation killed approximately 300 Mexican civilians and Border Agent Brian Terry.

Dont misunderstand me I'm not trying to say that our administration is happy about what happened at Sandy Hook however IMO I think they are trying to use the tragedy to pick up where Fast and Furious failed.
Can CIA hypnotists make people do things against their will?
Part 6 of series. In a revealing interview from a declassified CIA document, a top hypnotist describes many ways hypnosis can be used as a weapon to achieve clandestine objectives. The interview concludes with his astonishing comment, "Individuals could be taught to do anything including murder, suicide, etc. I do believe that you could carry out acts that would be against an individual's moral feelings if they were rightly, psychologically conditioned."

This vital information can be easily verified using the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), which entitles any citizen to obtain declassified government documents, even from the CIA. The eye-opening document containing the interview mentioned can be ordered for free simply by following the instructions available at this link. The document and page numbers necessary for ordering are listed below.

Few people are aware of the power of hypnosis in skilled hands, and of the ability of CIA hypnotists to create Manchurian Candidates, also known as super spies, who are not even aware of the secret acts they are programmed to commit. Through the empowering FOIA, thousands of pages of declassified documents are now available which show how the CIA developed and mastered the ability to create these super spies over 50 years ago. Here are key excerpts of the above-mentioned interview.

CIA document and page number: 140394, pp. 2, 3
Title: Interview with [Deleted]
Date: 25 February 1952

Q: What are your experiences in general with hypnotism?
A: I have been a professional hypnotist for at least 15 years. At present, I am employed on a very confidential basis two days a week.

Q: Can you obtain information from an individual, willing or unwilling, by hypnotism?
A: Definitely, yes. Many of the medical cases I work on are involved in obtaining personal, intimate information, and through hypnotism, I have been quite successful in obtaining this. If an individual refuses to co-operate with hypnosis, the doctors with whom I work use drugs, always sodium amytal.

Q: How far do you think individuals could be controlled by hypnosis?
A: This is a very difficult subject. Post-hypnotics will last twenty years and will be very strong if re-enforced from time to time.

Q: Have you ever had any experience with drugs?
A: Yes, many times. I have worked with doctors using sodium amytal and pentothal and have obtained hypnotic control after the drugs were used. In fact, many times drugs were used for the purpose of obtaining hypnotic control.

Q: Do you have any ideas that hypnotism could be used as a weapon?
A: Yes, I have thought about this often. It could certainly be used in obtaining information from recalcitrant people particularly with drugs. It could be used as a recruiting source for special types of work. A good hypnotist running hypnotic shows for entertainment would pick up a great many subjects, some of whom might be exceptionally good subjects for us. These subjects could easily be tabbed and put to use.

Q: Have you ever been able to produce hypnosis without an individual's knowledge?
A: Yes, through the relaxing technique and on rare occasions [I've] been able to produce hypnotism against a person's will. However, you cannot count on this and to attempt to attach an individual who did not want to be hypnotized alone would be almost an impossible task. In that type of case, I would use sodium amytal and/or sodium pentothal.

Q: How effective are post-hypnotics; over what distances and time can they be effective?
A: Properly used post-hypnotics will last twenty years. They can be made more effective by re-enforcement from time to time. Post-hypnotics are not affected at all by time or travel or distance away from the person who placed the post-hypnotic. As a rule, post-hypnotics should be 100% effective in good subjects.

Q: Can individuals be made to do things under hypnosis that they would not otherwise?
A: Individuals could be taught to do anything including murder, suicide, etc. I do believe that you could carry out acts that would be against an individual's moral feelings if they were rightly, psychologically conditioned.

Note: These are only excerpts. The full text of the interview from the declassified CIA document is available here.

As this interview shows, individuals can be hypnotized without their knowledge. They can be programmed to commit murder, suicide, and much more. Another key document shows a CIA instructor bragging about how he regularly used his talents to get women into bed with him. And please note that there is a big difference between this kind of severe abuse of hypnosis and the healing modality hypnotherapy, which can be most beneficial in dealing with past traumas and other problems.

The above document is from the year 1952. Hundreds of other declassified CIA documents from years since suggest that these capabilities have been operationalized and used secretly to manipulate people and politics around the globe. A trusted contact of mine who served 25 years deep cover in the CIA has informed me that these programs have developed further and become much more sophisticated over the decades.

Think about the implications of this. How many murders were committed by people who didn't even realize they were assassins? How many "suicides" of important people we've heard in the news were not really suicides? How much has this technology been used to manipulate world politics? Think about the Kennedys, Martin Luther King, Jr., and possibly even those involved with 9/11and other major terrorist attacks.

For an informative video chock full of mind-boggling revelations on the CIA's mind control programs, watch the History Channel's amazing documentary Mind Control: America's Secret War.
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:33 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by vtjohn View Post
I always liked the idea of Air Marshals, never know if one is on the plane or not. Same thing could be done with schools at little extra cost-- many shools in our area have police present anyway, just needs to be a group of plain clothes types that are in a different school everyday.
this also works well with the FFDO (federal flight deck officer) aka armed pilots. You never know how's on board my plane, and if appears to be working.

I think as simular program with teacher should be discussed, I know several teacher that would participate.

Everyone seems to miss the point of the 2nd ammendment. the media, the polititians and the public. It has nothing to do with hunting, or personal defence, these are just benifets we enjoy. Its there to protect the citizens from the government. these were revolutionary's that wrote this, and they wanted to make sure we could do it again if needed.
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:39 PM   #193
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I love all my high capacity guns. Its not the guns fault no body can stop stupid
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:56 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditchdoc

Can CIA hypnotists make people do things against their will?
Part 6 of series. In a revealing interview from a declassified CIA document, a top hypnotist describes many ways hypnosis can be used as a weapon to achieve clandestine objectives. The interview concludes with his astonishing comment, "Individuals could be taught to do anything including murder, suicide, etc. I do believe that you could carry out acts that would be against an individual's moral feelings if they were rightly, psychologically conditioned."

This vital information can be easily verified using the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), which entitles any citizen to obtain declassified government documents, even from the CIA. The eye-opening document containing the interview mentioned can be ordered for free simply by following the instructions available at this link. The document and page numbers necessary for ordering are listed below.

Few people are aware of the power of hypnosis in skilled hands, and of the ability of CIA hypnotists to create Manchurian Candidates, also known as super spies, who are not even aware of the secret acts they are programmed to commit. Through the empowering FOIA, thousands of pages of declassified documents are now available which show how the CIA developed and mastered the ability to create these super spies over 50 years ago. Here are key excerpts of the above-mentioned interview.

CIA document and page number: 140394, pp. 2, 3
Title: Interview with [Deleted]
Date: 25 February 1952

Q: What are your experiences in general with hypnotism?
A: I have been a professional hypnotist for at least 15 years. At present, I am employed on a very confidential basis two days a week.

Q: Can you obtain information from an individual, willing or unwilling, by hypnotism?
A: Definitely, yes. Many of the medical cases I work on are involved in obtaining personal, intimate information, and through hypnotism, I have been quite successful in obtaining this. If an individual refuses to co-operate with hypnosis, the doctors with whom I work use drugs, always sodium amytal.

Q: How far do you think individuals could be controlled by hypnosis?
A: This is a very difficult subject. Post-hypnotics will last twenty years and will be very strong if re-enforced from time to time.

Q: Have you ever had any experience with drugs?
A: Yes, many times. I have worked with doctors using sodium amytal and pentothal and have obtained hypnotic control after the drugs were used. In fact, many times drugs were used for the purpose of obtaining hypnotic control.

Q: Do you have any ideas that hypnotism could be used as a weapon?
A: Yes, I have thought about this often. It could certainly be used in obtaining information from recalcitrant people particularly with drugs. It could be used as a recruiting source for special types of work. A good hypnotist running hypnotic shows for entertainment would pick up a great many subjects, some of whom might be exceptionally good subjects for us. These subjects could easily be tabbed and put to use.

Q: Have you ever been able to produce hypnosis without an individual's knowledge?
A: Yes, through the relaxing technique and on rare occasions [I've] been able to produce hypnotism against a person's will. However, you cannot count on this and to attempt to attach an individual who did not want to be hypnotized alone would be almost an impossible task. In that type of case, I would use sodium amytal and/or sodium pentothal.

Q: How effective are post-hypnotics; over what distances and time can they be effective?
A: Properly used post-hypnotics will last twenty years. They can be made more effective by re-enforcement from time to time. Post-hypnotics are not affected at all by time or travel or distance away from the person who placed the post-hypnotic. As a rule, post-hypnotics should be 100% effective in good subjects.

Q: Can individuals be made to do things under hypnosis that they would not otherwise?
A: Individuals could be taught to do anything including murder, suicide, etc. I do believe that you could carry out acts that would be against an individual's moral feelings if they were rightly, psychologically conditioned.

Note: These are only excerpts. The full text of the interview from the declassified CIA document is available here.

As this interview shows, individuals can be hypnotized without their knowledge. They can be programmed to commit murder, suicide, and much more. Another key document shows a CIA instructor bragging about how he regularly used his talents to get women into bed with him. And please note that there is a big difference between this kind of severe abuse of hypnosis and the healing modality hypnotherapy, which can be most beneficial in dealing with past traumas and other problems.

The above document is from the year 1952. Hundreds of other declassified CIA documents from years since suggest that these capabilities have been operationalized and used secretly to manipulate people and politics around the globe. A trusted contact of mine who served 25 years deep cover in the CIA has informed me that these programs have developed further and become much more sophisticated over the decades.

Think about the implications of this. How many murders were committed by people who didn't even realize they were assassins? How many "suicides" of important people we've heard in the news were not really suicides? How much has this technology been used to manipulate world politics? Think about the Kennedys, Martin Luther King, Jr., and possibly even those involved with 9/11and other major terrorist attacks.

For an informative video chock full of mind-boggling revelations on the CIA's mind control programs, watch the History Channel's amazing documentary Mind Control: America's Secret War.
There is an interesting article about the recent shootings. Specifically the most recent one and how government maybe involved, there were multiple shooters, etc. not saying its true but it's interesting. I'll try to find. Was posted in a diff thread
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:08 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Drix

You see what you want when you distort what I said to fit your view.

If anyone is intent on killing in public like what happened. It's gonna happen, no one will stop those first few people from going down. Sad tragic yes but true, the difference between 27 people dying and 3 people dying are those people who carry.

And don't be ignorant. Teachers are not gonna go to store pick up a gun load it and put it in their pants and take it to school. Such thoughts are silly

The ones who choose to would receive proper training. It's simple, shall be uninfringed. So yah anywhere you cant carry your rights are being violated. With the exception of privately owned property.

I think everyone with "what if's" should probably start posting up facts to at least show one time the "what if" they were talking about happened.

No before some wild what if. No the white house pentagon blah blah blah blah. They are classified areas your more then likely not allowed there anyway. It comes down to making a choice for those who do carry. And btw those places that you can't carry normally have places where you can lock it up while you are
There and pick it up on the way out.
No, I used the quote "only a few causalties", with absolutley no statistical data of the situations, as a basis for my response. The notion that a populace voluntarily carrying is a defense mechanism is a very faith based statement. It is not ignorant to think teachers, general liberal leaning individuals, in CT, where they have voted to enact some of the strictist gun laws, do not have an interest in carrying guns. Outside TX and TN, I have seen nor heard of one teacher who feels restricted of freedom in reference to carrying on campus, though I am sure an excrushiatingly small minority exists. Further, were you to be intimately familiar wih their protocols, it would not equate to armed teachers. It would be arms in lockboxes and vehicles.

Through the acknowledgement of "classified areas" you are agreeing to the premise guns don't belong everywhere. You think a govt institution has the right to ban them in one place, where adults capable of free choice go, yet a govt institution mandating attendence of children should not be equally secure?
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:39 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by hwy1rubi
...

What you fail to understand is that we are discussing the interpretation of the second amendment. You seem to want to have it both ways, it protects your right to own some military style weaponry but limits other forms. My question would be why you can not have it both ways? Either the government has the right to regulate all weapons or non.
No, you seem to miss my point.

The 2nd Amendmemt means, as written, the FEDERAL govt CANNOT make any law impeding the states individual Right of defense through populace owned weaponry in leau of a standing national Army, the infastructure to store its weaponry, or the infastructure to house it. This means you can have a gun, and the Feds cannot prohobit that - HOWEVER - you do have the ability to refuse your own rights, or be refused them, if you are known or likely to deprive others civil rights. This means felons can't vote. This means crazies don't get a 2nd. This means a lot of that kind of stuff.

The State has Rights, too. I feel the State should regulate the possesion of fully automatic weapons, intentionally concealed by design equipment like sbrs, silencers, pistols, etc, large bore weaponry such as artillary, guided weaponry like missles, high energy devices like nukes and moabs, and other items with offensive purposes. If you somehow find this a contridiction, I am happy to furher explain WHY the State has every right to do this. And by regulate I mean register for most, test for some. If a man has to tell you where his machine gun is, he is almost statisticly certain not to use it in commission of a crime. I know of 0 such instances, and live in a state of 30,000 full auto weapons. My neighbors shoot their 16A2 almost every w/e.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwy1rubi
As many as 60% of guns sold in this country are sold at gun shows where many do not require back ground checks.
Wrong. And according to other posts, down to 40% polling 2500 people, some .0025% of estimated gun owners. By phone. Day or night? Makes a big difference, cause people with a job work in the day - particularly when the data was taken compared to cell coverage today. I would not believe that 'statistic' unless Jesus Himself told me.

So do you feel no govt entitiy can tell you you can't buy plutonium? You are resteicted because rocket fuel is not available to you?
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:44 PM   #197
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^ no such thing as a silencer. You instantly discredit yourself.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:52 PM   #198
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^ no such thing as a silencer. You instantly discredit yourself.
Sure thing hoss.

How would you define an external device with the intentional purpose of suppressing combution noise of a firearm while attached?
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:59 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pengintamer
^ no such thing as a silencer. You instantly discredit yourself.
Even though it's formally a suppressor, most people still call it a silencer. It doesn't discredit his side of the argument. Read his posts, he researches his information. He and I don't see eye-to-eye on a few things, but he brings some definite intellect to the table and makes one think.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:05 PM   #200
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Sure thing hoss.

How would you define an external device with the intentional purpose of suppressing combution noise of a firearm while attached?
I'd call it a suppressor. Which is what it is.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:13 PM   #201
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I'd call it a suppressor. Which is what it is.
You do know the ATF calls them silencers in common verbage, yes? And legal verbage.

And after browsing Chapter 27, suppressor only appears there in reference to flash suppression, not noise suppression. For all legal definitions in Ch27, silencer is used.

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/regulations/
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:23 PM   #202
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easy Y'all, this has been pretty civil and interesting debate, don't get it shut down. Stick to your points and counter points.Please, I'm enjoying the exchange of idea's.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:36 PM   #203
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That regulation of suppressors is another useless and mystifying thing. I'd wager that they are used in the commission of a crime about as often as a fully auto firearm. Which is to say, never. I guess it's like the "assault weapons". They look SKEERY!
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:47 PM   #204
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That regulation of suppressors is another useless and mystifying thing. I'd wager that they are used in the commission of a crime about as often as a fully auto firearm. Which is to say, never. I guess it's like the "assault weapons". They look SKEERY!
But is that because only responsible owners have them? Put another way, would that statistic still be true if they were readily available?
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:08 PM   #205
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I agree, and restricting high round magazines would be simple way to reduce the carnage.
Cho didn't have a single high capacity magazine. He had 10 and 15 round handguns. Why was he able to kill so many? Because he had 19 magazines in his backpack.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:11 PM   #206
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Also the last few gun shows I went to had very few good deals on guns. Mostly overpriced crap and a small selection at that. Plenty of rubber band guns and beef jerky though
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:12 PM   #207
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But is that because only responsible owners have them? Put another way, would that statistic still be true if they were readily available?
What possible use would they be? Suppressors don't cause a gun to make that little pfft sound in the movies. It's a bit louder than that. Besides, would the idiot on the trigger care about noise? We're not talking "hit man" here. More like a fool knocking over a liquor store or killing innocents. Besides that, it isn't hard at all to make a suppressor. Any reasonably equipped home workshop is all you need. Not even that, if you don't care how it looks. It's just another silly feel good attempt that does nothing.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:40 PM   #208
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Any reasonably equipped home workshop is all you need.
It's not so much about making the silencer, it's about threading the end of the barrel. and even getting extended barrels that is the hard part. They didn't only ban flash suppressors, they banned threaded barrels last time.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:46 PM   #209
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On a side note.... Cheaper than dirt, and all the other sites are out of stock on everything related to the AR15.

I'm just glad I got all my goodies years ago. It's turning into an "order from superior" type of environment. Waiting for who knows when.
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:57 PM   #210
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It's not so much about making the silencer, it's about threading the end of the barrel. and even getting extended barrels that is the hard part. They didn't only ban flash suppressors, they banned threaded barrels last time.
You don't need a threaded barrel for a makeshift suppressor. True, it wouldn't be pretty and wouldn't last long, but it would work. My point was that the regulation of them is, well, pointless. If someone wanted to commit a crime using one, it wouldn't be hard to do. Just like a lot of laws/regulations this one is both silly and useless. It doesn't make anyone safer, and doesn't accomplish anything else either.

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