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Old 08-18-2008, 11:46 AM   #31
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I would be willing to pay my tax dollars to support the hardware and trainng for ANY teacher that would carry. This would make me feel better knowing someone (actually in the school) can respond to an internal or external threat if it presented itself.

I would feel an infinite amount better knowing my kids (and my neighbor's kids) and the teachers (including my wife and our teacher friends) have SOME protection rather than the current limited protection from the local - I'll get there in 5 minutes and wait outside for the SWAT team to show up establishment. No disrespect to the local law enforcement officials, but they always waste time analyzing things outside and I would much prefer someone on the inside that can respond immediately.

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Old 08-18-2008, 12:06 PM   #32
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X2! The only problem I see with getting the teachers the right to carry, is most of them are so far to the left, that it wouldn't make that much of a differance...But, any would be better than none. I believe if every other teacher that you passed in the hall could be carrying, maybe, probably, trouble-makers would think a little before starting...I am glad my kid is already out of school, hopefully by the time the grandkids are ready to go, this will become reality.

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Old 08-18-2008, 12:14 PM   #33
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Old 08-18-2008, 12:30 PM   #34
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All those questions, Skeet, work just as well going the other way. No one knows if teachers being armed would help. No one knows how many teachers would actually arms themselves. You argue that we would have to have a guard in "every classroom", well then stand to reason every teacher must arm themselves for the kids to be safe. No?
No.
One of the side benefits of concealed carry is that it's concealed, The criminal doesn't know who's packing so he must assume everyone is.
And we do know that having armed teachers can help.
Quote:
Vice Principal Joel Myrick held his Colt .45 point blank to the high school boy's head. Last week, he told me what it was like. "I said 'why are you shooting my kids?' He said it was because nobody liked him and everything seemed hopeless," Myrick said. "Then I asked him his name. He said 'you know me, Mr. Myrick. Remember? I gave you a discount on your pizza delivery last week."

The shooter was Luke Woodham. On that day in 1997, Woodham slit his mother's throat then grabbed a .30-30 lever action deer rifle. He packed the pockets of his trench coat with ammo and headed off to Pearl High School, in Pearl, Miss.

The moment Myrick heard shots, he ran to his truck. He unlocked the door, removed his gun from its case, removed a round of bullets from another case, loaded the gun and went looking for the killer. "I've always kept a gun in the truck just in case something like this ever happened," said Myrick, who has since become Principal of Corinth High School, Corinth, Miss.

Woodham knew cops would arrive before too long, so he was all business, no play. No talk of Jesus, just shooting and reloading, shooting and reloading. He shot until he heard sirens, and then ran to his car. His plan, authorities subsequently learned, was to drive to nearby Pearl Junior High School and shoot more kids before police could show up.

But Myrick foiled that plan. He saw the killer fleeing the campus and positioned himself to point a gun at the windshield. Woodham, seeing the gun pointed at his head, crashed the car. Myrick approached the killer and confronted him. "Here was this monster killing kids in my school, and the minute I put a gun to his head he was a kid again," Myrick said.
Source

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Just because every scenario and question cannot be addressed does not mean that we do nothing. Guards are better than nothing. Trained guards are better than not trained guards. Police are better than guards. Parents who do their freaking jobs trump the whole set.
IMO trained and armed teachers would trump both police and guards. I've shot with both.

Quote:
By the way, this thread was also posted on a writer's site I frequent.... and I'm debating it the other way
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Old 08-18-2008, 02:18 PM   #35
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I had not seen this story before.....

1) It gave me a Warm tingliee feeling.

2) Have you ever been to that HELL HOLE Pearl Mississippi as one of the worst places on the planet.
(I know why that guy had a gun)


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Vice Principal Joel Myrick held his Colt .45 point blank to the high school boy's head. Last week, he told me what it was like. "I said 'why are you shooting my kids?' He said it was because nobody liked him and everything seemed hopeless," Myrick said. "Then I asked him his name. He said 'you know me, Mr. Myrick. Remember? I gave you a discount on your pizza delivery last week."

The shooter was Luke Woodham. On that day in 1997, Woodham slit his mother's throat then grabbed a .30-30 lever action deer rifle. He packed the pockets of his trench coat with ammo and headed off to Pearl High School, in Pearl, Miss.

The moment Myrick heard shots, he ran to his truck. He unlocked the door, removed his gun from its case, removed a round of bullets from another case, loaded the gun and went looking for the killer. "I've always kept a gun in the truck just in case something like this ever happened," said Myrick, who has since become Principal of Corinth High School, Corinth, Miss.

Woodham knew cops would arrive before too long, so he was all business, no play. No talk of Jesus, just shooting and reloading, shooting and reloading. He shot until he heard sirens, and then ran to his car. His plan, authorities subsequently learned, was to drive to nearby Pearl Junior High School and shoot more kids before police could show up.

But Myrick foiled that plan. He saw the killer fleeing the campus and positioned himself to point a gun at the windshield. Woodham, seeing the gun pointed at his head, crashed the car. Myrick approached the killer and confronted him. "Here was this monster killing kids in my school, and the minute I put a gun to his head he was a kid again," Myrick said.
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Old 08-18-2008, 02:59 PM   #36
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It was said before that schools are soft targets and that they are declared gun free zones.

Perhaps that is one of the main reasons the bad elements see them as prime target environments - no fear of retribution before they do what they want.

Having a fully armed staff is improbable and DANGEROUS. Not every teacher could or would carry. But here's the kicker:

Little Evil David decides to shoot those boys that have been taunting him for the last year or two. He KNOWS no teacher is carrying. So he opens up, kills those boys, and their friends too. Body count (see Columbine and Va Tech for possible results).

Now, change the scenario. Little Evil David knows that Mrs. Jessica H. Powderkeg (we'll call her JHP for short) loves to shoot and has seen her shoot at the range. He also knows teachers can carry. He thinks twice and decides to take the boys out at a later date.

The scenario above played out at my junior high school when I was in the 8th grade. My friend killed a couple of boys due to the taunting. Several teachers were known gun enthusiasts and would have carried had that been an option. Had David thought a bit before acting, he may have dropped the plans entirely, or he could have gotten help for his issues, or done it somewhere else at a later time.

The key here, folks, is that knowing teachers have the OPTION, it acts as a deterrent because any perp can now know that teachers MAY be carrying and be able to stop them from their task at hand.

Is it an ideal solution? No way. The world is an imperfect place. BUT, given today's budget constraints for school districts across the nation, this is at least a stop-gap measure to hopefully reduce the likelihood that some perp sees a school as an easy target.
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Old 08-18-2008, 03:08 PM   #37
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Any time any place.

Last year three would bee buglers (separate events Diff. parts of town) were shot to death by Homeowners in San Antonio Texas. All three shootings took place inside of about 80 days most of them happened towards the end of the year 2007.

All three shootings were declared Self Defense and no action was taken against the shooters.

This year Home invitations are down by 31% in SA Funny how that works
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Old 08-18-2008, 03:12 PM   #38
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This year Home invitations are down by 31% in SA Funny how that works
yeah, we dont invite people into our home, we shoot them instead and forgo having to entertain guests
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Old 08-18-2008, 03:17 PM   #39
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yeah, we dont invite people into our home, we shoot them instead and forgo having to entertain guests

One day I will learn to read what I'm typing "Invasions"
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Old 08-18-2008, 03:31 PM   #40
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hahaha...sorry, couldnt help myself.
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Old 08-18-2008, 03:35 PM   #41
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JT's party novelties include little pieces of lead thrown at you at high velocities.

That's a party favor I'd rather not receive.
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Old 08-18-2008, 03:52 PM   #42
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JT's party novelties include little pieces of lead thrown at you at high velocities.

That's a party favor I'd rather not receive.

Okay Okay... what it if I keep it smaller than 115 grain and no faster than 1,155ft/Sec
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Old 08-18-2008, 04:13 PM   #43
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Why thank you, I like you too. And I can't help myself sometimes. I'm not a fan of standing too far on one side or the other without having the ability to see. Both sides make real substantial points when we strip away the emotional and PC bullshit that always accompanies issues dealing with guns.

I like the article you posted very much. Although, I thought a more interesting aspect of it was not Myrick but this....

Quote:
At which point I say, "Woodham violated several gun laws by having his gun on campus. The law did nothing to deter him, but plenty to deter the man who set out to stop the killings." To which a gun controller replied: "But guns kill."

Sucked in and trapped by this bizarre logic, I attempted to address it. I said: "But Joel Myrick's gun didn't kill. Rather, it allowed children, including the deranged killer, to live."

"Yeah, but all of these school shootings are done by guns," he told me.

So I pounded my head against a wall. Politics and sociology are complex. But if any socio-political issue should be a simple, exact science, it's gun control. All honest modern studies show that gun control, in this culture, benefits criminals while leaving law-abiding victims defenseless.
I've always found the "guns kill" argument laughable. Not without a human counterpart they don't. Guns just lay there useless without that. I don't own any guns (I'm quite fond of knives however), but I'd never begrudge anyone from owning or carrying them legally. Ever hear the Heinlein quote? "An armed society is a polite society."
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Old 08-18-2008, 04:29 PM   #44
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tiny and I have been discussing this...

I agree. Without the human counterpart a gun is useless. It's a tool. It's like saying "Hammers Kill People" "Practice Hammer Control"!

And let me tell you, the day guns hop out of the cabinet and start killing people, that's the day we should all live in fear!

It makes you wonder if privative man ever went through this.

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Old 08-18-2008, 04:32 PM   #45
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Look at this story!

What do you think about this???

WEAPONS OF CHOICE
Pizza man saved by gun,
but fired for packin' heat
Prosecutors call it 'clear case of self-defense,'
yet national chain prohibits carrying firearms
Posted: June 01, 2004
1:00 am Eastern

© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com




A pizza deliveryman won't face charges for fatally shooting a would-be robber several times when he was approached in a high-crime area, but his employer, Pizza Hut, has fired him for violating a company policy against carrying firearms.

Ronald B. Honeycutt, 38, who has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, says he's been delivering pizzas for 20 years and has always packed heat on the job.

According to a report in the Indianapolis Star, prosecutors announced Friday the Carmel, Ind., man will not face criminal charges.

"It's a clear case of self-defense," Deputy Prosecutor Barb Crawford said. "He did what the law allows him to do to protect himself."

Jerome Brown-Dancler approached Honeycutt at around 11 p.m. on May 17 just after he had made a pizza delivery in Indianapolis. According to the report, Brown-Dancler pointed a 9 mm handgun at the Pizza Hut employee as he was entering his van.

Brown-Dancler's gun carried a loaded 14-round clip but had no bullet in the chamber, Crawford told the Star. When confronted, Honeycutt pulled his own 9 mm from the back of his pants and fired until it was empty. He says he fired 15 times in about eight seconds. An autopsy revealed Brown-Dancler was hit at least 10 times.

According to the report, Honeycutt insists Brown-Dancler didn't fall until after the last shot was fired.

"The guy kept standing. He knew he was injured when he fell," Honeycutt told the paper. "His concern was he made an error, and the only thing he could say when I was grabbing his gun off the ground was, 'I just wanted pizza.'"

After the encounter, Honeycutt took Brown-Dancler's gun, fearing it might be stolen if it was left with the body. He got in his van, drove to the Pizza Hut restaurant where he worked and told his manager to call police, Crawford said.

"This was late at night. This was a high-crime area," Crawford is quoted as saying. "He left because he wasn't sure whether or not Brown-Dancler had any friends with him. As it turns out, he did indeed have friends with him. They left when they heard shots fired."

Honeycutt says he plans to find another job delivering pizzas.

"Other criminals better think twice, because I'm going back out there," he said, "and I know I'm not alone in the way I think about this."

Some Pizza Hut customers have complained to the company after it fired Honeycutt.

"I hope those of you in the media will realize the incredible unfairness of a huge company telling its employees Ė in essence Ė they must agree to die for the company rather than use legal reasonable means to defend themselves," Rick Whitham, an Indianapolis attorney, told WND. He says he saw Pizza Hut's action as "clear discrimination against those who choose to lawfully exercise a legal, heavily regulated right."

Whitham wrote to the company: "I don't spend my money with businesses that openly discriminate against people such as myself who understand that the police have no affirmative duty to protect any particular citizen and that no company is worth dying for Ė particularly yours."
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:11 PM   #46
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Check out the stats posted from my writer's board by one of the members...

Quote:
For the 30 years between 1966 and 1996, there were a total of 12 school shootings;

For the next 11 years and 2months, from 1997 through Feb 2008, there were a total of 33 school shootings.
In table form:
1966 1
1967
1968
1969
1970
1971
1972
1973
1974
1975
1976 1
1977
1978
1979 1
1980
1981
1982
1983 1
1984
1985
1986
1987
1988
1989 1
1990
1991 1
1992 2
1993 1
1994
1995 1
1996 2
1997 3
1998 3
1999 2
2000 1
2001 2
2002 2
2003 4
2004 1
2005 2
2006 5
2007 3
2008 5 - to Feb

The dramatic increase in last 11 years makes it a pretty damn recent phenomenon.

Schools have been designated (by law) as “gun-free zones”, guns are not supposed to be in or around schools.
Not that I think it's a perfect idea, but dang, the stats paint an interesting story.
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:29 PM   #47
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good point tiny..... in the years where it was acceptable and known that several students and teachers may have hunting rifles in their vehicles and i'm assuming that in that era there were quite a few teachers that kept handguns in there vehicles (but dont quote me on that), the number of school shootings was ridiculously lower. now that schools have been deemed gun free zones and the mere mention of a gun even to the point that a hunting magazine would probably get a student in trouble, the number of shootings has dramatically increased. thanks for those stats i'll save them. and just wondering (not trying to be a smart a) do you have a valid link for those stats so i can use them as a legit source in future debates
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Old 08-18-2008, 08:09 PM   #48
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Reb, I will ask Robert, who posted them on the other site I frequent, where he got them and post up the link but here are some recent (back to 96 I think) stats....

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html
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Old 08-18-2008, 09:24 PM   #49
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It was said before that schools are soft targets and that they are declared gun free zones.

Perhaps that is one of the main reasons the bad elements see them as prime target environments - no fear of retribution before they do what they want.

Having a fully armed staff is improbable and DANGEROUS. Not every teacher could or would carry. But here's the kicker:

Little Evil David decides to shoot those boys that have been taunting him for the last year or two. He KNOWS no teacher is carrying. So he opens up, kills those boys, and their friends too. Body count (see Columbine and Va Tech for possible results).

Now, change the scenario. Little Evil David knows that Mrs. Jessica H. Powderkeg (we'll call her JHP for short) loves to shoot and has seen her shoot at the range. He also knows teachers can carry. He thinks twice and decides to take the boys out at a later date.

The scenario above played out at my junior high school when I was in the 8th grade. My friend killed a couple of boys due to the taunting. Several teachers were known gun enthusiasts and would have carried had that been an option. Had David thought a bit before acting, he may have dropped the plans entirely, or he could have gotten help for his issues, or done it somewhere else at a later time.

The key here, folks, is that knowing teachers have the OPTION, it acts as a deterrent because any perp can now know that teachers MAY be carrying and be able to stop them from their task at hand.

Is it an ideal solution? No way. The world is an imperfect place. BUT, given today's budget constraints for school districts across the nation, this is at least a stop-gap measure to hopefully reduce the likelihood that some perp sees a school as an easy target.
AMEN! Right now, the school in which my wife teaches has one officer, part time, who parks his department issue SUV right out in the open, in the same reserved spot which is visible from at least, perhaps 3 adjacent roads. Anyone could tell from a 1/4 mile away if he is on site or not, if so, just come back later! If there is a possibility of a few additional responsible adults having the ability to protect themselves and their students, maybe Little Evil Johnny rethinks the whole plan.

Tiny, you seem to enjoy this devils advocate angle, I'd like to see how you are arguing the other way!
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Old 08-18-2008, 09:32 PM   #50
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I like to encourage debate, especially written. And honestly, I see both sides, especially if I play the "what if" game. But that gets tiring.


Here's the link Reb, and just as I thought, he compiled the stats manually from a list of shootings...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

He also left off three of the "school shootings", Orangeburg, Kent State and Jackson State because they were either police or military actions during protests.
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Old 08-19-2008, 06:27 AM   #51
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I like to encourage debate, especially written. And honestly, I see both sides, especially if I play the "what if" game. But that gets tiring.


Here's the link Reb, and just as I thought, he compiled the stats manually from a list of shootings...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

He also left off three of the "school shootings", Orangeburg, Kent State and Jackson State because they were either police or military actions during protests.
The Israeli's learned from Ma'lot and that was the start of using volunteers to provide security. Also note that for some reason the teacher jumped out a window for his weapon which was in the truck. A gun is no defense if it's not in your hands or loaded. As long as evil people possess the means to harm you it is a mistake to hamstring people from having the means to defend themselves and others from harm.
Declaring or passing a law making a school a gun free zone does not make it so.
What has always interested me is the visions of Hollywood and the wild and woolly west with bank robberies and robbers scampering out of town on horse back after robbing a bank, didn't happen that way, most bank robbers were nailed by the citizens when they pulled that stuff, during that heyday of the wild west most of those citizens were civil war veterans. The only example I have ever seen was the Dalton gang and how they got chewed up attempting this with a pretty large contingent of bank robbers in their gang. They got eaten alive.
I know a lot about the Israeli side mainly because I worked with another systems engineer who was attending a jewish rabbinical college in the area I worked in, he was bound and determined to convert me when he found out my mother was jewish, there were over 100 families, several were well trained and even though it was in a tough part of town the local scum gave it a wide berth, all the adults, men and women plus older children patrolled that apartment complex, all armed, the same at the college itself. They also had two advisors that spoke english with very strong accents that were trainers and ran a training program that had nothing to do with becoming a rabbi. It proved a very strong deterrent to the local criminals who they were not really worried about, they were more concerned with terrorist.
There is a sign in the schools main office that says 'This is NOT a gun free school zone'...
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Old 08-19-2008, 07:17 AM   #52
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1982
1983 1
1984
That was the shooting my friend was involved in...

What those other numbers do NOT tell you is things about increased drug use, gang memberships, overcrowded schools, economic influences, etc. Anybody can use statistical numbers to tell their story. Some can say that gun shootings are on the rise because of additional weapons available...

But if you look at those stats from 95 on... isn't that when the "assault weapons ban" and gun control was in effect? If so, that is painfully clear in an of itself that gun control has the opposite effect.

Look at ALL the factors before saying guns are the cause. They are NOT. There are other outside influences that lead these kids or whoever to snap. The guns, as mentioned before are just tools. IF guns weren't available, my guess is that they'd find something else to attack with... perhaps making bombs or improvised weapons of some type.

I support the right to self defense, own several guns, and have a CCW. I'd much prefer that I didn't feel the need to any of that, but today's society is not nice, polite, and civilized.

Perhaps if parents actually lived up to their responsibility and job when they have kids and (GASP) raised them, society wouldn't be as screwed up as it is. Teach respect, honor, responsibility, self confidence, and self reliance and I suspect many of us wouldn't feel the compulsion to carry a .45 on our hip.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:15 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by erickpl View Post
That was the shooting my friend was involved in...

What those other numbers do NOT tell you is things about increased drug use, gang memberships, overcrowded schools, economic influences, etc. Anybody can use statistical numbers to tell their story. Some can say that gun shootings are on the rise because of additional weapons available...

But if you look at those stats from 95 on... isn't that when the "assault weapons ban" and gun control was in effect? If so, that is painfully clear in an of itself that gun control has the opposite effect.

Look at ALL the factors before saying guns are the cause. They are NOT. There are other outside influences that lead these kids or whoever to snap. The guns, as mentioned before are just tools. IF guns weren't available, my guess is that they'd find something else to attack with... perhaps making bombs or improvised weapons of some type.

I support the right to self defense, own several guns, and have a CCW. I'd much prefer that I didn't feel the need to any of that, but today's society is not nice, polite, and civilized.

Perhaps if parents actually lived up to their responsibility and job when they have kids and (GASP) raised them, society wouldn't be as screwed up as it is. Teach respect, honor, responsibility, self confidence, and self reliance and I suspect many of us wouldn't feel the compulsion to carry a .45 on our hip.
Well said, especially the red part.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:51 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erickpl View Post

What those other numbers do NOT tell you is things about increased drug use, gang memberships, overcrowded schools, economic influences, etc. Anybody can use statistical numbers to tell their story. Some can say that gun shootings are on the rise because of additional weapons available...


The fellow who posted those stats was actually saying that when the "gun free zone" laws came into effect is when school shootings started to rise, and it does appear to be the case. It's like telling the prisoners the guards are in the tower, but they don't have any bullets, so take a run at the wall.

I'd like to thank you guys for an amazing discussion. I honestly at first thought of all the bad stuff that could happen but saw it as an option because we have to do something. When Skeet posted that article about Mr. Myrick, I think I gained a bit more understanding of how good it could go.

I'm not a huge fan of guns. Coming from a bow hunting family I never saw the use for them, and having never lived in areas where I felt I needed a gun for protection. I probably will never own a gun, I like knives
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:11 PM   #55
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The fellow who posted those stats was actually saying that when the "gun free zone" laws came into effect is when school shootings started to rise, and it does appear to be the case. It's like telling the prisoners the guards are in the tower, but they don't have any bullets, so take a run at the wall.

I'd like to thank you guys for an amazing discussion. I honestly at first thought of all the bad stuff that could happen but saw it as an option because we have to do something. When Skeet posted that article about Mr. Myrick, I think I gained a bit more understanding of how good it could go.

I'm not a huge fan of guns. Coming from a bow hunting family I never saw the use for them, and having never lived in areas where I felt I needed a gun for protection. I probably will never own a gun, I like knives

When I was a kid ... Driving and in High School I always carried a pocketknife just like I do now.

During Dove Season that was always a Shotgun & Ammo in my trunk. That way if I had an opportunity to go dove hunting after school. Up until just recently I carried a gun under my seat 100% of the time.

I never leave town without at least one firearm sometimes more.

I have never needed to use a gun to defend myself.

If I ever need to I will...

And no matter how upset I've gotten at people or even after taking a few ass whoopings I never considered going to get a gun to settle the score.

What has Changed?
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:14 PM   #56
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I like knives too, Tiny... And bows and arrows and spears and battle axes and catapults look like loads of fun and... um... look, a dancing alien!

Greg, what's changed is that kids are no longer taught respect. They are taught that they should have and do whatever they want. Those kids have grown up and are teaching their own kids the same thing, only more so.
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Old 08-19-2008, 12:21 PM   #57
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What is the correlation in those statistics to population increase and dual career or divorced families?

IMO - kids today get into trouble because of lack of parental supervision or involvement. Maybe it's the lack of a parent from divorce or both parents are at work till 6:00 PM. No parental guidance always equals trouble. Some kids today (roughly 50%) are missing 1 parent in their lives to keep things in order or act a role model. I say 50% because that correlates to the divorce rate. If mom is taking care of the kids and is working late, then that number goes even higher.

Dual career households are not much better. OK, you have the phat house and all the toys, but mom and dad are working too late to watch their daughter who smokes crack all the time with her boyfriend. However, they have money to throw away in rehab so it's OK but it's the boyfrind's fault.

Without guidance, the kids today become prime targets for gang membership and trouble can always be found.

We need to go back to basics and hold parents accountable for our children's development, behavior and well being. Stop pushing the issues to the schools and the system to handle. I'm so tired of people saying it's someone else's fault... No, it's not, you just need to be a better parent and if you can't be then the state should take away your children, raise them and garnish your wages to pay the difference.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:15 PM   #58
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What is the correlation in those statistics to population increase and dual career or divorced families?

IMO - kids today get into trouble because of lack of parental supervision or involvement. Maybe it's the lack of a parent from divorce or both parents are at work till 6:00 PM. No parental guidance always equals trouble. Some kids today (roughly 50%) are missing 1 parent in their lives to keep things in order or act a role model. I say 50% because that correlates to the divorce rate. If mom is taking care of the kids and is working late, then that number goes even higher.

Dual career households are not much better. OK, you have the phat house and all the toys, but mom and dad are working too late to watch their daughter who smokes crack all the time with her boyfriend. However, they have money to throw away in rehab so it's OK but it's the boyfrind's fault.

Without guidance, the kids today become prime targets for gang membership and trouble can always be found.

We need to go back to basics and hold parents accountable for our children's development, behavior and well being. Stop pushing the issues to the schools and the system to handle. I'm so tired of people saying it's someone else's fault... No, it's not, you just need to be a better parent and if you can't be then the state should take away your children, raise them and garnish your wages to pay the difference.

RICK WARREN for PRESIDENT!
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:03 PM   #59
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In my not so humble opinion there two main factors at work.
1. banning corporal punishment in schools. I was in school when they did it and you could see the kids lose respect for the adults almost over night.

2.http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/...opic-Drugs.htm
Doping kids with drugs that specifically warn of psychotic suicidal side effects to get em to calm down rather than smacking an ass or kicking em out of school is insane.
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:50 PM   #60
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How unbelievably interesting.....

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The gun policy in Switzerland is unique in Europe. The personal weapon of militia personnel is kept at home as part of the military obligations. This, in addition to liberal gun laws and strong shooting traditions, has led to a very high gun count per capita. Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, but also one of the lowest firearm related crime rates in the world. In recent times political opposition has expressed a desire for tighter gun regulations.
Quote:
In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles stored at private homes, mostly SIG 550 types. Additionally, there are some 320,000 assault rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire weapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only. In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small arms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_Switzerland

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