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Old 08-19-2008, 06:00 PM   #61
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I have a friend in switzerland, was over visiting him one year many years ago, Not only did he have the H&K rifle, 1,000 round of ammo but he also had an anti-tank launcher and 4 reload cannisters. His activation site was the swiss side of a tunnel and his job was to keep them at the other end from getting to him at his end. If switzerland ever caught fire the whole country would blow up. You are in the reserves from like 18 till your late 50's. Switzerland is a fortress dressed in nice clothes.

Oh and while Germany has fairly strict gun control laws many weapons from WWII were stored in homes there and never turned in.

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Old 08-19-2008, 07:01 PM   #62
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Something tells me they enforce the rules they already have instead of screaming for more when the old ones are ignored...

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And the most important safety, I never put my booger hook on the bang switch unless I'm ready to fire.
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:34 PM   #63
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How strange...

The Country how never takes a stand and remains neutral during armed conflicts all over the world has the most guns per citizens...


Do you think they ever do any shooting?
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Old 08-19-2008, 08:52 PM   #64
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Something tells me they enforce the rules they already have instead of screaming for more when the old ones are ignored...
I agree, enforce the ones we have.
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:01 PM   #65
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The Country how never takes a stand and remains neutral during armed conflicts all over the world has the most guns per citizens...


Do you think they ever do any shooting?

Um... yes.

Quote:
The gun policy in Switzerland is unique in Europe. The personal weapon of militia personnel is kept at home as part of the military obligations. This, in addition to liberal gun laws and strong shooting traditions, has led to a very high gun count per capita. Switzerland has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, but also one of the lowest firearm related crime rates in the world. In recent times political opposition has expressed a desire for tighter gun regulations.
Quote:
The government sponsors training with rifles and shooting in competitions for interested adolescents, both male and female.

The sale of ammunition — including Gw Pat.90 rounds for army-issue assault rifles — is subsidized by the Swiss government and made available at the many shooting ranges patronized by both private citizens and members of the militia.
(from wiki again)


And they got bitchin' knives.
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:21 PM   #66
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when I was getting ready to finish at UTEP

My first gig was going to be in QC at Border Steel in Anthony NM.

I will never forget the look on the nurse's face when she asked me just before my hearing test:
  • Nurse "Mr Machado do you do any shooting As in Sport or Hunting?"
  • Greg "Yes"
  • Nurse "Yes To Shooting for Sport or Hunting"
  • Greg "Both"
  • Nurse "On average how many rounds do you think you discharge?
  • Greg "If I had to guess 8 - 10
  • Nurse "Only 8-10?"
  • Greg "Yeah; My guess is 8-10 Thousand"
  • Nurse "Are you sure"
  • Greg "I shoot a 3" group with a 300 winmag at 200-300 yards that kind of shooting takes practice"
  • Nurse "Why so much ammo?"
  • Greg "Can you shoot that tight a group? It takes practice!"
  • Nurse "Do you wear hiring protection?
  • Greg "If I did not wear hearing protection would we be having this conversation?
  • Nurse "What else do you shoot?
  • Greg "Lots; I own 18 handguns and 10 Long guns
  • Nurse "Are you any good with the other guns?"
  • Greg "What do you think?"
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:25 PM   #67
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thanks for the links tiny. this is one of the conversations that will just turn intoa pissing match. there 2 sides and for the large part, no one is going to budge from theirs. but then again, why shoudl we, we all know our side is right, let the teachers have guns
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:26 PM   #68
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thanks for the links tiny. this is one of the conversations that will just turn intoa pissing match. there 2 sides and for the large part, no one is going to budge from theirs. but then again, why shoudl we, we all know our side is right, let the teachers have guns

Amen My Brother!


But let it be known.... I still think Tiny Rocks even though we don't see eye to eye on this one!
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:03 PM   #69
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Are you sure Greg, maybe you might want to read all my posts
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:19 PM   #70
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thanks for the links tiny. this is one of the conversations that will just turn intoa pissing match. there 2 sides and for the large part, no one is going to budge from theirs. but then again, why shoudl we, we all know our side is right, let the teachers have guns
Realistically we could solve or at least prove some points, those who have guns put up 'trespassers will be shot' signs at all 4 corners of your house, those anti gunners put 'there are no firearms or other defensive devices except for a direct dial 911 phone' in the same locations.

Then over say a 1 or 2 year period lets see what happens....

IMO anti-gun people are riding on the shirt tails and get indirect protection from those of us who are pro-gun. They just need to be shown that.
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:53 PM   #71
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I'm not sure where I saw it...

But someone had a Sig that said....

"Saying Guns kill people....

Is like saying Spoons made Rosie O'Donnell Fat!"


I think I pulled a something from laughing so hard!

And Yes Tiny; I still like you!

And if you were ever threatened and I was there I would defend you with Deadly Force! Like I would for anyone!
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:53 PM   #72
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:10 AM   #73
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Was it your sig?
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:25 AM   #74
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I find myself torn in this issue. As a southern CA cop I know the ratio of cops on duty to citizens in my area is 1 to 20,000. Obviously, the lesson here is that the cops are not going to SAVE you. Prepare to save yourself until help arrives. On the other hand, I don't believe everyone who wants a gun should have one. Guns don't kill people, people do. If you're not ready mentally and physically to kill, then having a gun is dangerous to the possessor and everyone he/she is supposed to be protecting. Additionally, large groups of people are stupid. A guns in the hands of stupid people is dangerous. Unfortunetly, spotting the stupid amoung us is hard until after they act stupid and then it's too late.
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Old 08-20-2008, 08:47 AM   #75
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I find myself torn in this issue. As a southern CA cop I know the ratio of cops on duty to citizens in my area is 1 to 20,000. Obviously, the lesson here is that the cops are not going to SAVE you. Prepare to save yourself until help arrives. On the other hand, I don't believe everyone who wants a gun should have one. Guns don't kill people, people do. If you're not ready mentally and physically to kill, then having a gun is dangerous to the possessor and everyone he/she is supposed to be protecting. Additionally, large groups of people are stupid. A guns in the hands of stupid people is dangerous. Unfortunetly, spotting the stupid amoung us is hard until after they act stupid and then it's too late.
I'd like to add something if I may...

You can't fix stupid!!!
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Old 08-20-2008, 09:51 AM   #76
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I'd like to add something if I may...

You can't fix stupid!!!
Yes you can
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Old 08-20-2008, 10:59 AM   #77
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just my thought on this!

Nope can't fix stupid they just put duct tape over it to make it look smarter.
Anyway Joe has a good point, And my only problem with teachers having a gun on them is when the SHTF what will their mind set be? Will they be so freaked by adrenalin they won't be able to tell good guys from bad? Will responders have to worry about active shooters as well as the armed teacher/teachers?. Also how hard would it be to find out which teacher is carrying and make them their first target? Remember these shooters are more than likely on a suicide mission and could probably care less about the armed teacher. And on another note lets say you have an armed teacher and he/she gets into an argument with a student and in the heat of the moment looses his/her temper and shoots the student,Or both have guns and a shoot out begins with innocent people getting caught in the crossfire. It happens all the time with family members and it could happen in this situation. Makes you think. Now who was it that said the parents should step up and take responsibility for the actions of the children at home and school?.
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Old 08-20-2008, 11:34 AM   #78
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Yes you can
Not legally anyway. You need to make it look like an accident.
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Old 08-20-2008, 11:35 AM   #79
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Hgans Allie Shooting

Who of you except for the cops... Has ever shot in a Hogans Allie set up?

I've had a chance to do it twice...

Now keep in mind I'm vary comfortable with firearms the first time I did not fair so well I neutralized about 60% of the targets. But all the shooting takes place in a split second. It's not like you can bare down on a target like you might in the real world. It is true combat shooting other then no one is shooting back. It is designed to sharpen your Shoot/No Shoot skills...

The Second time I did it I neutralized 95% of the targets and Zero No-Shoots were discharged. If you ever have a chance to do one.... You should do it; it really gets your heart going.

I know it would be expensive but if someone were going to carry a weapon in a place where there are sure to be civilian bystanders like a school halls or classrooms. This sort of training should be mandatory with regularly scheduled re-certifications requirements.

Would this sort of training for teacher like they do with air-marshals make you more comfortable?
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:15 PM   #80
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Currently when the alarm in the school goes off the teachers close and lock the doors to the classrooms, no one in or out till the all clear. Simplifies it quite a bit, you shoot anybody coming through the door. No needing to pick targets. All they can do now is hope nobody comes in and starts picking them off packed in the classroom.
In the event of a terrorist attack, the only real thing you can do now is start throwing kids out the windows and telling them to run for their lives when they hit the ground, hoping some or most make it before the terrorists start rounding every one up and getting them or a large percentage to the gym or other central area. A single shooter vs a fire team of shooters needs to handled differently, the problem is the teachers and staff are probably in the dark as to how many.
If the kids and teachers at columbine had taken the opposite approach and rushed the shooters it might not have turned out so badly instead of allowing them to pick and aim at their targets. Yea, it takes nads to do it but look at the alternative. Takes a certain mind set, anger and adrenaline can be a potent mix.
Where I live I can almost guarantee that at least 100 armed parents would show up alot quicker than the police could get there.
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:18 PM   #81
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hypothetically speaking: You have a early twenties teacher (pretty new to teaching)armed and with no teacher dress codes he/she is wearing pretty much the same cloths as the students. Now a call goes out and you respond and as you enter the classroom everybody is screaming he/she has a gun, You yell (if there's time) drop the gun but with the chaos and Adrenalin (such as tunnel vision and total loss of sound associated most shooting situations) the teacher does not hear you. How could this scenario end?. I know most of you probably think this would be far fetched, But is it? Peace!
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:29 PM   #82
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People do grow nads

Remember Flight 93!
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:35 PM   #83
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Kick, in most schools, the classrooms are locked down, and word would be passed by intercom that the BG has been subdued and police are in the building, on the way, something like that, so the chances of a 1st responder barging into the classroom of an armed teacher is pretty minimal. Not to mention, I would hope the teacher would be well trained enough to know the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. Cop enters the room, put the gun down, keep your hands in plain sight. Pretty safe bet the person previously holding a weapon will be the first to be identified by the police, as long as the teacher doesn't start blasting away as soon as the doorknob starts to turn, all should be ok.
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:48 PM   #84
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Remember Flight 93!
Thats kind of sad, that they used box cutters, shows the passive level we have fallen to.
There was a hijacking of a spanish aircraft that the passengers and crew took care of.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...uritania_x.htm
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:00 AM   #85
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sgnellett if there were a way to properly train those teachers I would be all for it, And yes even our schools lock down the classrooms in the case of emergencies but as the case of Columbine high school (I believe it was this school) where they planned the attack at lunch break where most kids and teachers are either in the hall or cafeteria. shooters,teachers,students,and responding officers all in hall or cafeteria might get a little confusing. Oh well lets see how it pans out in good 'ol Texas.
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:23 AM   #86
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I hope not...But

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sgnellett if there were a way to properly train those teachers I would be all for it, And yes even our schools lock down the classrooms in the case of emergencies but as the case of Columbine high school (I believe it was this school) where they planned the attack at lunch break where most kids and teachers are either in the hall or cafeteria. shooters,teachers,students,and responding officers all in hall or cafeteria might get a little confusing. Oh well lets see how it pans out in good 'ol Texas.

I'd say; expect a court challenge.

But if there is not one... I might just have to move there!
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:58 PM   #87
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Currently when the alarm in the school goes off the teachers close and lock the doors to the classrooms, no one in or out till the all clear. Simplifies it quite a bit, you shoot anybody coming through the door. No needing to pick targets. All they can do now is hope nobody comes in and starts picking them off packed in the classroom.
In the event of a terrorist attack, the only real thing you can do now is start throwing kids out the windows and telling them to run for their lives when they hit the ground, hoping some or most make it before the terrorists start rounding every one up and getting them or a large percentage to the gym or other central area. A single shooter vs a fire team of shooters needs to handled differently, the problem is the teachers and staff are probably in the dark as to how many.
If the kids and teachers at columbine had taken the opposite approach and rushed the shooters it might not have turned out so badly instead of allowing them to pick and aim at their targets. Yea, it takes nads to do it but look at the alternative. Takes a certain mind set, anger and adrenaline can be a potent mix.
Where I live I can almost guarantee that at least 100 armed parents would show up alot quicker than the police could get there.
Right on the head with that one. I would be there with extra hardware to pass out.

That's one of the great things about PA...everybody is armed and the bad guys know it.
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Old 08-21-2008, 05:47 PM   #88
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I find myself torn in this issue. As a southern CA cop I know the ratio of cops on duty to citizens in my area is 1 to 20,000. Obviously, the lesson here is that the cops are not going to SAVE you. Prepare to save yourself until help arrives. On the other hand, I don't believe everyone who wants a gun should have one. Guns don't kill people, people do. If you're not ready mentally and physically to kill, then having a gun is dangerous to the possessor and everyone he/she is supposed to be protecting. Additionally, large groups of people are stupid. A guns in the hands of stupid people is dangerous. Unfortunetly, spotting the stupid amoung us is hard until after they act stupid and then it's too late.
good points. I like the comparison and contrast you put in. most of us hopefully can spot stupid before they act though. I'm reading the book right now called THE GIFT OF FEAR and damn its good. it reinforces that your body and mind tells you when something is wrong and to listen to the senses.

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Nope can't fix stupid they just put duct tape over it to make it look smarter.
Anyway Joe has a good point, And my only problem with teachers having a gun on them is when the SHTF what will their mind set be? Will they be so freaked by adrenalin they won't be able to tell good guys from bad? Will responders have to worry about active shooters as well as the armed teacher/teachers?. Also how hard would it be to find out which teacher is carrying and make them their first target? Remember these shooters are more than likely on a suicide mission and could probably care less about the armed teacher. And on another note lets say you have an armed teacher and he/she gets into an argument with a student and in the heat of the moment looses his/her temper and shoots the student,Or both have guns and a shoot out begins with innocent people getting caught in the crossfire. It happens all the time with family members and it could happen in this situation. Makes you think. Now who was it that said the parents should step up and take responsibility for the actions of the children at home and school?.
agreed as well. especially with the parents part.

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Who of you except for the cops... Has ever shot in a Hogans Allie set up?

I've had a chance to do it twice...

Now keep in mind I'm vary comfortable with firearms the first time I did not fair so well I neutralized about 60% of the targets. But all the shooting takes place in a split second. It's not like you can bare down on a target like you might in the real world. It is true combat shooting other then no one is shooting back. It is designed to sharpen your Shoot/No Shoot skills...

The Second time I did it I neutralized 95% of the targets and Zero No-Shoots were discharged. If you ever have a chance to do one.... You should do it; it really gets your heart going.

I know it would be expensive but if someone were going to carry a weapon in a place where there are sure to be civilian bystanders like a school halls or classrooms. This sort of training should be mandatory with regularly scheduled re-certifications requirements.

Would this sort of training for teacher like they do with air-marshals make you more comfortable?

I have shot a allie setup with shoot and no shoot targets and it was alot of fun makes you really think when you run the course too. I enjoyed it very much.
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Old 08-21-2008, 05:56 PM   #89
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The difference between sport and combat is that in combat you bury the one who comes in second.

I almost drowned in my water bottle when I read that!
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Old 08-21-2008, 07:57 PM   #90
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IMO each school should allow only fully qualified teachers to carry. Security is an extra expense that the school systems in rual Georgia can't afford, but each school only needs a couple of teachers packing to take care of business if (God forbid) it is needed.

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