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Old 04-26-2013, 10:45 AM   #61
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The so called safe trigger such as used on the Glock is not and should not be used by everyone. People hear the name Glock and drool yet it is one of the worst guns for someone new to handguns. While NO safety should ever be depended upon, since mechanical devices can fail, no shooter should use a firearm with one of these automatic safeties until they have become so well trained that they NEVER put their finger in the trigger guard until ready to pull the trigger, manual safeties put an additional conscious step in place, that makes them think about the order of pulling the trigger, "one, two, two, three... One Safety, Two finger in guard, Three pull trigger," the 1,2,3s of trigger control training...
Yup. Glocks are good for cops, and make for good guns (I have two) but I wouldn't carry one except for on the hip or in ankle holster. 99.9% of your use of a CCW weapon is not shooting yourself while stashing/unstashing/daily activities. Thus, I want something #1 I can shoot well (I'm pretty good with the sig) and #2 isn't going to go bang easily if it gets hung up on something. I'm not confident with the glock on #2 for all use cases.

My view is that 95% of the time a show of force works well enough to stop the situation and if you fall in that 5%, I think that if you don't have time to rack in a round, flip off a safety, or pull a DA trigger after all the training you SHOULD have put yourself through when taking on the responsibility of a CCW, the gun wouldn't have helped anyways. Your mileage may vary, just my .02c

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Old 04-26-2013, 11:16 AM   #62
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I prefer sigs...all metal frame. The SRT is nice, too. Trigger safeties scare me if not using a structured holster.

The Baby Eagle Fred0000 pictured is all steel too. I've held the 226 and the Baby Eagle, and the Eagle feels much more solid than the 226 does. Don't get me wrong if I had a thousand dollars to buy a 226 I would, but the Baby Eagle cost about half that and has practically full ambi controls.

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Old 04-26-2013, 11:42 AM   #63
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The Baby Eagle Fred0000 pictured is all steel too. I've held the 226 and the Baby Eagle, and the Eagle feels much more solid than the 226 does. Don't get me wrong if I had a thousand dollars to buy a 226 I would, but the Baby Eagle cost about half that and has practically full ambi controls.
Had a CZ75 (Jericho is a copy) and sold it for a 226. 226's frame is an alloy, therefore it's lighter. The 226 has a better balance and grip (for me anyway) so I like it better. Everything's relative, but I love my 226. Paid $925 for mine and I live in Canada (226 goes for $1000 in the US???). Then upgraded to a used 226 Elite (my friend never shot it) for $950.

Everyone talks about price, but why skimp on your pistol when your biggest expense will be ammo in the long run? This always confused me. But to each his own.
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Old 04-26-2013, 01:17 PM   #64
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Had a CZ75 (Jericho is a copy) and sold it for a 226. 226's frame is an alloy, therefore it's lighter. The 226 has a better balance and grip (for me anyway) so I like it better. Everything's relative, but I love my 226. Paid $925 for mine and I live in Canada (226 goes for $1000 in the US???). Then upgraded to a used 226 Elite (my friend never shot it) for $950.

Everyone talks about price, but why skimp on your pistol when your biggest expense will be ammo in the long run? This always confused me. But to each his own.
I'll be honest, I have not shot an Eagle or 226 yet. That could very well be the deciding factor. My problem with Sigs is that although the quality is great, the only way to get a steel frame from them is to buy something in the 226 price range. I personally don't have anything against polymer, I just prefer steel over it. Also both my dad and I are left handed so ambi controls are a must. Thats why I like the CZ75/85 & Baby Eagle.
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Old 04-26-2013, 01:27 PM   #65
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:51 PM   #66
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I've got a Glock 23 in .40 and a Savage Axis rifle in .308 Win. Neither has gotten much use lately, I need to run the Jeep up to the mountains and do some wheeling and shooting. I might have to be *cough*cough* "sick" and stay home from work one day.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:04 PM   #67
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I'll be honest, I have not shot an Eagle or 226 yet. That could very well be the deciding factor. My problem with Sigs is that although the quality is great, the only way to get a steel frame from them is to buy something in the 226 price range. I personally don't have anything against polymer, I just prefer steel over it. Also both my dad and I are left handed so ambi controls are a must. Thats why I like the CZ75/85 & Baby Eagle.
Ok, I understand. Yes, the stainless steel Sig's are pricey, but they are gorgeous. If you have the money, you won't be disappointed in the quality. However, it's all up to the individual. I liked my CZ75 but the ergonomics of the Sig won me over. The ability to change calibers on the 226 platform is also a great feature.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:53 AM   #68
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My view is that 95% of the time a show of force works well enough to stop the situation and if you fall in that 5%, I think that if you don't have time to rack in a round, flip off a safety, or pull a DA trigger after all the training you SHOULD have put yourself through when taking on the responsibility of a CCW, the gun wouldn't have helped anyways. Your mileage may vary, just my .02c
That is the most logical (and truthful) statement about pistols I have ever seen on this forum. Thanks!

Youz guyz and your pistolas...

Seen the video of the cop shooting himself in a school with his Glock? Proper training allows racking with draw, and is the ONLY 'safety' for a pistol.

I do have one, though: A Rossi Princess I got for her, neat little 6 shot 22 from the 60s, made in Brazil. Also had a pheonix 25 auto I carried and a Ruger P97DC I missed targets with, but they are long gone. Handguns just don't do it for me.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:32 AM   #69
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Time to wade in on the safety/unloaded/no safety carry.

First off, if you train and practice with a platform (IE Sig DA/SA, M1911, Glock, ect) you will learn to operate said platform properly under stress. If that means pressing the safety off while presenting the weapon then that is what you will do.

Secondly, Unloaded carry means you are carrying a handgun without a round in the chamber. Israeli carry is the practice of chambering a round as part of the draw stroke, this practice requires lots of training and is not considered reliable so it is not something I would recommend.

Third the only safety you can count on is the greyish one between your ears. If your firearm does or does not have a safety always treat it like it is loaded and follow the other three rules of gun safety as well.

No matter what always carry in a quality holster that is in good condition. DO NOT CARRY A HANDGUN IN A WORN OUT OR BROKEN HOLSTER UNDER ANY CONDITION OR FOR ANY REASON! Good holsters may not be cheap but they are cheap insurance. Why would you put your $400-$2000 gun loaded with $2 per round ammo in a $15 nylon holster you got on sale at Walmart for $7? Also a good high quality gun belt is strongly recommended, they often look like dress belts but are quite a bit thicker.
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:04 PM   #70
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Time to wade in on the safety/unloaded/no safety carry.

First off, if you train and practice with a platform (IE Sig DA/SA, M1911, Glock, ect) you will learn to operate said platform properly under stress. If that means pressing the safety off while presenting the weapon then that is what you will do.

Secondly, Unloaded carry means you are carrying a handgun without a round in the chamber. Israeli carry is the practice of chambering a round as part of the draw stroke, this practice requires lots of training and is not considered reliable so it is not something I would recommend.

Third the only safety you can count on is the greyish one between your ears. If your firearm does or does not have a safety always treat it like it is loaded and follow the other three rules of gun safety as well.

No matter what always carry in a quality holster that is in good condition. DO NOT CARRY A HANDGUN IN A WORN OUT OR BROKEN HOLSTER UNDER ANY CONDITION OR FOR ANY REASON! Good holsters may not be cheap but they are cheap insurance. Why would you put your $400-$2000 gun loaded with $2 per round ammo in a $15 nylon holster you got on sale at Walmart for $7? Also a good high quality gun belt is strongly recommended, they often look like dress belts but are quite a bit thicker.
I agree that it's the more difficult of the options, but it's tough for me to imagine a situation other than an old west style shootout or where I already have a gun pointed at my face that I'd be at a disadvantage.

I'd be comfortable carrying a snub nose 22 magnum without a holster in many situations.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:25 PM   #71
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I agree that it's the more difficult of the options, but it's tough for me to imagine a situation other than an old west style shootout or where I already have a gun pointed at my face that I'd be at a disadvantage.

I'd be comfortable carrying a snub nose 22 magnum without a holster in many situations.
This is where training comes into play.

Scenario 1: Imagine your in a convenience store, and a man enters with a gun drawn. Right off the bat a customer is immediately shot by the bad guy, followed immediately by a second customer being shot, the bad guy's gun turns directly at you, in the very few seconds it took him to kill two people you have managed to draw your weapon, chamber a round, and now time is up.

Scenario 2: Same convenience store, your behind a display when the bad guy comes in and kills the other customers, he then gets the money from the clerk and kills him. Now he is looking for anyone he might have missed, you have drawn your weapon and as the threat comes toward you you pull the slide back and ease it forward, only to cause a jam because it was never designed to chamber a round like that. Or maybe you make a noise chambering the round and the bad guy shoots at it, possibly you get hit possibly not.

As for carrying ANY handgun w/o a holster, please don't. A holster is more than an accessory. It keeps your firearm in the same location so you can draw it consistently. It covers the trigger to prevent a negligent discharge by a foreign object getting against the trigger. For conceal carry it can break up the outline of the firearm for better concealment. For open carry it serves as a security measure. A good holster retains your weapon so you that it is on you. Essentially a good holster is essential.

I think the caliber wars are deserving of their own thread and won't touch that subject here.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:40 PM   #72
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This is where training comes into play.

Scenario 1: Imagine your in a convenience store, and a man enters with a gun drawn. Right off the bat a customer is immediately shot by the bad guy, followed immediately by a second customer being shot, the bad guy's gun turns directly at you, in the very few seconds it took him to kill two people you have managed to draw your weapon, chamber a round, and now time is up.

Scenario 2: Same convenience store, your behind a display when the bad guy comes in and kills the other customers, he then gets the money from the clerk and kills him. Now he is looking for anyone he might have missed, you have drawn your weapon and as the threat comes toward you you pull the slide back and ease it forward, only to cause a jam because it was never designed to chamber a round like that. Or maybe you make a noise chambering the round and the bad guy shoots at it, possibly you get hit possibly not.

As for carrying ANY handgun w/o a holster, please don't. A holster is more than an accessory. It keeps your firearm in the same location so you can draw it consistently. It covers the trigger to prevent a negligent discharge by a foreign object getting against the trigger. For conceal carry it can break up the outline of the firearm for better concealment. For open carry it serves as a security measure. A good holster retains your weapon so you that it is on you. Essentially a good holster is essential.

I think the caliber wars are deserving of their own thread and won't touch that subject here.
You don't always have that option. I wasn't trying to start a caliber wars argument, I'm just saying that a snub 22 magnum is a tiny gun and perfect for stowing in places where you can't use a traditional holster.

Also, with regard to your situations, you're expecting me to stand there like a deer in the headlights. When CCW you should be VERY attentive, I'd say I have a good chance being the 2nd or 3rd guy shot at to have my weapon up and firing from a hip holster. Being the 1st, you're screwed anyways. Personally, for me, racking a round is a simpler reactive activity than going hammer down with round in chamber in a 1911 style gun. (However, that would be my default carry style for a DA/SA).

If I expected to be shot every convenience store I walked into, I'd open carry cocked and locked.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:53 AM   #73
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If I expected to be shot every convenience store I walked into, I'd open carry cocked and locked.
I'd keep a mini or an AR on me if I expected that.

Walking around 'guns drawn' because of what may happen is like carrying an umbrella on a sunny day, very pessimistic.

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:50 AM   #74
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I agree with Heath, no round in the chamber is dangerous. If you are ever in a defensive situation you want to be able to present and fire without any extra manipulations.

g7 – I don’t know where on your body you are carrying, but they make holsters for just about any place. If you are slipping that 22 into your pocket, then get a pocket holster. It keeps the gun oriented and prevents dirt and debris getting into it.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:21 AM   #75
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Wish I could carry... handguns and short barreled rifles can only be used at the range here in Canada

Just the subject of concealed and open carry makes me yearn for more freedom. Oh well, at least there is way less crime here and less need for a carry gun.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:50 PM   #76
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Wish I could carry... handguns and short barreled rifles can only be used at the range here in Canada

Just the subject of concealed and open carry makes me yearn for more freedom. Oh well, at least there is way less crime here and less need for a carry gun.
Just because its illegal doesn't mean it won't happen. You have no idea who is carrying. The ability to carry should be a right wherever. Here is the US there is major issues right now and it's causing a big ruckus.

There is less crimes because of other reasons, not that guns are illegal to carry. The criminals still have and will continue to carry them. They aren't going to turn them in because of a law.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:02 PM   #77
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[QUOTE=TJgunner;3670195]any shooters out there?

I just upped myself from a 40cal to a 45. QUOTE]

I'm not sure that is an "up." Just my two cents. I love my .40 cals, however, I do have .45acp as well.

Either way, enjoy what you have and shoot often.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:18 PM   #78
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[QUOTE=Anaconda;3715235]
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any shooters out there?

I just upped myself from a 40cal to a 45. QUOTE]

I'm not sure that is an "up." Just my two cents. I love my .40 cals, however, I do have .45acp as well.

Either way, enjoy what you have and shoot often.
9x23mm Winchester > all
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:02 PM   #79
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Oh hell, I'll stir the pot a bit. With regard to training, ask any LEO or anyone in the Armed Forces how long it was before they actually got to touch a weapon. Training is everything. Understanding conditions of carry, stance, muzzle discipline, sight picture, disassembly & cleaning and marksmanship (not to mention tactics) are drilled into you before they ever think about turning you loose in a situation where you could conceivably run up on a bad guy.

That's what gets me spun-up over some of the 2nd Amendment wackadoodles. They want to be able to buy the latest MK-10 Duke Nukem death-dealer, but they get wrapped around the axel when anyone opines that it might be a good idea to see if they have the deportment and ability to use it...
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:19 PM   #80
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Oh hell, I'll stir the pot a bit. With regard to training, ask any LEO or anyone in the Armed Forces how long it was before they actually got to touch a weapon. Training is everything. Understanding conditions of carry, stance, muzzle discipline, sight picture, disassembly & cleaning and marksmanship (not to mention tactics) are drilled into you before they ever think about turning you loose in a situation where you could conceivably run up on a bad guy.

That's what gets me spun-up over some of the 2nd Amendment wackadoodles. They want to be able to buy the latest MK-10 Duke Nukem death-dealer, but they get wrapped around the axel when anyone opines that it might be a good idea to see if they have the deportment and ability to use it...
Ill second that one with ya Senior!
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:31 PM   #81
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Oh hell, I'll stir the pot a bit. With regard to training, ask any LEO or anyone in the Armed Forces how long it was before they actually got to touch a weapon. Training is everything. Understanding conditions of carry, stance, muzzle discipline, sight picture, disassembly & cleaning and marksmanship (not to mention tactics) are drilled into you before they ever think about turning you loose in a situation where you could conceivably run up on a bad guy.

That's what gets me spun-up over some of the 2nd Amendment wackadoodles. They want to be able to buy the latest MK-10 Duke Nukem death-dealer, but they get wrapped around the axel when anyone opines that it might be a good idea to see if they have the deportment and ability to use it...

All I had to do was turn 7 and show up at grandpa's place.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:13 PM   #82
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Just because its illegal doesn't mean it won't happen. You have no idea who is carrying. The ability to carry should be a right wherever. Here is the US there is major issues right now and it's causing a big ruckus.

There is less crimes because of other reasons, not that guns are illegal to carry. The criminals still have and will continue to carry them. They aren't going to turn them in because of a law.
I agree with you. But this is something I'll never get to do, ever... Just the way it is over here.
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:00 PM   #83
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I went to the range yesterday for the first time in almost 2 months! It felt so GOOD to be able to shoot again! I am just thankful that I can own firearms!

I saw an older guy walk out of the range with a 6-shooter on his hip! That was cool! He open carries, something we in VA can do.
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:33 PM   #84
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i have quite a few. some of which are "questionable" but all in all i like to shoot jus as much as collect. i dont have a thing for the weapons of today, however i love WW2 ear rifles. i really enjoy my M44 and my K31 swiss...those things are a kick in the pants to shoot.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:03 PM   #85
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:20 PM   #86
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600 yards offhand???
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:25 PM   #87
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600 yards offhand???
Nope the video is of me shooting prone. The match was 200, offhand, and sitting, 300 sitting and prone, 600 prone, and 1000yards prone. The offhand pic is from 200.

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Old 05-06-2013, 09:31 PM   #88
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Cool. That didnt really look like even 300. Had to ask. You shoot 1000 prone?
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:34 PM   #89
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Cool. That didnt really look like even 300. Had to ask. You shoot 1000 prone?
Not all that often and rarely with just irons.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:53 PM   #90
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Oh hell, I'll stir the pot a bit. With regard to training, ask any LEO or anyone in the Armed Forces how long it was before they actually got to touch a weapon. Training is everything. Understanding conditions of carry, stance, muzzle discipline, sight picture, disassembly & cleaning and marksmanship (not to mention tactics) are drilled into you before they ever think about turning you loose in a situation where you could conceivably run up on a bad guy.

That's what gets me spun-up over some of the 2nd Amendment wackadoodles. They want to be able to buy the latest MK-10 Duke Nukem death-dealer, but they get wrapped around the axel when anyone opines that it might be a good idea to see if they have the deportment and ability to use it...
1965 USMC Edson Range at Camp Pendelton. Qualification withthe M14. We had 2x4 blocks with holes drilled in them to hold the 20 .308 rounds for the target you were shooting at. The DI's carried an empty one of them. If you jerked the trigger you got your finger tip smashed until you learned to softly squeeze with the tip. If your shoulder flinched it got wacked until you didn't flinch. The DI's called the boards, Group Tighteners. And yeah we spent a week before they gave us a bullet. And sometimes it was an on purpose dud just to see if you were anticipating the shot. That got you wacked too. Fun times.

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