Healthcare Reform - Page 3 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > General Discussion Forums > Off-Topic

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Reply
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 03-24-2010, 08:32 PM   #61
delicate %$^&*@ flower

WF Lifetime Member
 
tiny terror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Posts: 14,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
I miss the Kool Aid of my youth. I mean the REAL Kool Aid, the stuff with about a pound of sugar added per quart.
Now I just can't imagine you drinking koolaid, Jerry, even as a child. In fact, I can't even imagine you as a child... I think we need proof you actually were a kid. I figured you sprung from the collective wrenching frustration to keep us from screwing up our jeeps. You are human construct.

tiny terror is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-24-2010, 09:41 PM   #62
Jeeper
 
GroceryGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Posts: 282
So let me get this right...you guys want the same people that somehow managed to bankrupt the post office, ruined social security, turned welfare into a joke, and is currently making the money in your pockets right now WORTHLESS...you want these jokers in control of YOUR health. It's laughable.

Give me just 1 example of a program the government has actually pulled off. You can't. They're track record is terrible.

Politicians are nothing but a bunch of power hunger a**holes that don't care about you, the country, nor the Constitution. They pledge allegiance to an agenda, and a political party. Not America, not the constitution. Yet for some reason, everybody runs to the government, hands open, like it's they're parents. It's sickening. What happened to personal responsibility? Pride? Independence?

The American people as a whole, are seriously morons. This healthcare crap was talked about EXTENSIVELY during the debates. Clinton, Obamboozle, McCain, all talked about. He got voted in, and now the people and states get upset? If everybody wasn't so busy slobbering all over themselves at the thought of a black or female president maybe the country would be a little better off.

As for government healthcare, it's up there as one of the most truely unamerican things I've ever seen. Social Security, Welfare, Healthcare, the Patriot Act, all of those. We got SWINDLED. Yet, we keep supporting these glorified car salesmen, voting one out and replacing them with another idiot.

You want an idea of what Healthcare is going to look like if this goes into affect? I'll show you.

It cost what? 42 cents to deliver a sheet of paper? A SHEET OF PAPER! Nearly half a buck! It increases almost every year! I bet you guys don't send important crap in the mail either. You use UPS, FedEx, etc. PRIVATE COMPANIES, not the government service. Why? Think about it.

Another example...going to the hospital is going to be like going to the DMV. take a number, fill out a form, wait...and wait...a wait. Just so I can get a little sticker and pay $60 bucks for it every year so I can make the state even more money because my tires stick out the fenders 1/2 an inch!!! That's if they gave you the right form to fill out. I love spending half my birthday, in hot ass July, at the DMV.

The government never thinks things through. SS, Iraq, Patriot Act, the Obama Stimulus, and now this Healthcare...all nightmares the everyone thought was a fantastic idea. Ha! Let it pass. You'll see. But unlike Canada...we have no alternative if it sucks.

__________________
Yeah, I'd stop playing around with that. It looks expensive.
GroceryGrabber is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-24-2010, 10:33 PM   #63
Show Me Your 8008135!

WF Supporting Member
 
s3nt3nc3d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Piqua, OH
Posts: 3,643
Send a message via AIM to s3nt3nc3d
Quote:
Originally Posted by GroceryGrabber View Post
So let me get this right...you guys want the same people that somehow managed to bankrupt the post office, ruined social security, turned welfare into a joke, and is currently making the money in your pockets right now WORTHLESS...you want these jokers in control of YOUR health. It's laughable.

Give me just 1 example of a program the government has actually pulled off. You can't. They're track record is terrible.

Politicians are nothing but a bunch of power hunger a**holes that don't care about you, the country, nor the Constitution. They pledge allegiance to an agenda, and a political party. Not America, not the constitution. Yet for some reason, everybody runs to the government, hands open, like it's they're parents. It's sickening. What happened to personal responsibility? Pride? Independence?

The American people as a whole, are seriously morons. This healthcare crap was talked about EXTENSIVELY during the debates. Clinton, Obamboozle, McCain, all talked about. He got voted in, and now the people and states get upset? If everybody wasn't so busy slobbering all over themselves at the thought of a black or female president maybe the country would be a little better off.

As for government healthcare, it's up there as one of the most truely unamerican things I've ever seen. Social Security, Welfare, Healthcare, the Patriot Act, all of those. We got SWINDLED. Yet, we keep supporting these glorified car salesmen, voting one out and replacing them with another idiot.

You want an idea of what Healthcare is going to look like if this goes into affect? I'll show you.

It cost what? 42 cents to deliver a sheet of paper? A SHEET OF PAPER! Nearly half a buck! It increases almost every year! I bet you guys don't send important crap in the mail either. You use UPS, FedEx, etc. PRIVATE COMPANIES, not the government service. Why? Think about it.

Another example...going to the hospital is going to be like going to the DMV. take a number, fill out a form, wait...and wait...a wait. Just so I can get a little sticker and pay $60 bucks for it every year so I can make the state even more money because my tires stick out the fenders 1/2 an inch!!! That's if they gave you the right form to fill out. I love spending half my birthday, in hot ass July, at the DMV.

The government never thinks things through. SS, Iraq, Patriot Act, the Obama Stimulus, and now this Healthcare...all nightmares the everyone thought was a fantastic idea. Ha! Let it pass. You'll see. But unlike Canada...we have no alternative if it sucks.
A-MEN!

By the way... CNN, while not far left, is a liberal-leaning organization...and they, of all people, posted these poll results recently.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...id=ImdsItlII3U
__________________
"We don't build great brakes because we think you don't know how to drive, we build them for the guy on the road in front of you that doesn't." - Black Magic Brakes
s3nt3nc3d is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 09:18 AM   #64
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,866
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by kilgoretrout844 View Post
Nobody is making you get government insurance..its an option. If you love coverage you have now keep it. Compition for the private sector drives premiums down. Before the united states postal service was formed do you know how much it was the mail an item via pony express or whatever private company did the service for you?

See, this is what happens when you get your history from a communist who cherry picks data from other peoples work in a sad attempt to justify communism.
The U.S. postal service started in 1775. The Pony Express started in 1860.
Private delivery services exist and run at a profit specifically because the government does nothing well, or efficiently. People are willing to pay for things done well. The postal service can screw up all they want because when they run out of money they just run to uncle sugar with their hand out and uncle sugar steals more from us to give them. That isn't competition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kilgoretrout844 View Post
Why do you think drivers are required to have car insurance? Is that a rediculous policy? When people don't have insurance, be it auto or health, it ends up costing tax payers more money, and drives premiums up. Requiring everyone to have health insurance is a no brainer.
This is the part you and others like you keep missing. Auto insurance requirements are state law, not federal. The federal government does not have the authority to enforce such laws.

The federal government was specifically limited in it's powers in order to keep it from running out of control. It's much easier and more effective to maintain control of government at the local and state level than with an all powerful central government.
This health care travesty is a perfect example. The vast majority of Americans were against this bill but the power hungry morons in government just ignored the people they're supposed to work for and did it anyway. They've forgotten that they work for us and at the federal level, the only way to address that lapse is to wait until election to send them packing, or take a considerable amount of time and money to travel all the way to DC and protest while the liberal media claims were all just a bunch of racists for daring to oppose Obama's socialist policies.

Once again, the government, run by a bunch of people who's only qualification is the fact they won the equivalent of a high school popularity contest does nothing well. It's insane to let them have even more control over your life, especially your health care.
This won't lower costs, it won't reduce premiums and it won't improve health care.
__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 09:38 AM   #65
Jeeper
 
kilgoretrout844's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 233
It was REALLY good kool aid..
kilgoretrout844 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 10:17 AM   #66
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Geoff@Bestop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,612
I'm not sure why the Post Office analogy always gets used. The Post Office actually does the work of delivering mail, and employs more people than anyone but Walmart. It's a business, with some government protections. (but no money - they haven't received direct federal funds since the 80's).

That means it's nothing like what's happening in Health Care.

Health Care Reform does not mean that the government will run the hospitals and clinics, or that the doctors will get hired and fired by the government. You won't go to the "post office" doctor's office to get medical help.

Instead, it's basically a series of reforms aimed at the insurance companies.

A better analogy would be the SEC, which was formed to regulate Wall Street, or the FDA, which regulates food and drugs.

I'm not saying that makes it a good thing, I'm just saying the Post Office analogy doesn't work.
Geoff@Bestop is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 10:48 AM   #67
Jeeper
 
Schmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff@Bestop View Post
I'm not sure why the Post Office analogy always gets used. The Post Office actually does the work of delivering mail, and employs more people than anyone but Walmart. It's a business, with some government protections. (but no money - they haven't received direct federal funds since the 80's).

That means it's nothing like what's happening in Health Care.

Health Care Reform does not mean that the government will run the hospitals and clinics, or that the doctors will get hired and fired by the government. You won't go to the "post office" doctor's office to get medical help.

Instead, it's basically a series of reforms aimed at the insurance companies.

A better analogy would be the SEC, which was formed to regulate Wall Street, or the FDA, which regulates food and drugs.

I'm not saying that makes it a good thing, I'm just saying the Post Office analogy doesn't work.
This is interesting. While I agree with most of what GroceryGrabber (preach on brother!) and Skeeter have said . . . looking at the information that I've seen regarding what passed, (and to be honest, it hasn't been much, and no just like the guys voting on this I have yet to read the 2000 page bill) like Geoff mentioned, I don't really see the where the government is taking over or running healthcare. Perhaps the concern is that this will lead to more and more government intrusion, I can see some of that, but again just based on what I've seen, I don't really understand some of the points coming from the opposition. I don't want the government making decisions regarding my healthcare, nor do I want the government running healthcare . . . as so many others have said, they just don't have a good track record of success. That being said, I can't say that I disagree with things like insurance companies being held accountable so they can't just take your premiums year after year and then deny you coverage or drop you when you need treatment. And I'm still wrestling with the whole concept of being forced to have insurance . . . the idea of the government forcing me to purchase insurance makes me cringe, but, perhaps being a bit selfish, I can't say that makes me cringe any more than footing the bill for the uninsured to go to the ER and get treatment. It'd be nice if both sides would put down the Kool-Aid, so we could discuss out how this is really going to affect us and what we need to be on the watch for going forward to avoid losing more freedom and giving the government more control.
__________________
Bite the hand that feeds you . . . you've had more than enough to eat already.
Schmo is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 11:00 AM   #68
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Geoff@Bestop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,612
Speaking of bad analogies:
The mandatory car insurance/health insurance thing is a bad analogy too, I think.
Car insurance is a state run thing, and it's all about liability. I don't think any state requires you to have comprehensive.

A better analogy for this would be Social Security. The Federal Government requires you to pay into that account, even if you don't want it, don't need it, or don't believe in it. (and when Social Security started in the mid 1930's, a LOT of people complained about it. Some even tried to overthrow the government).

The law that allows Social Security, by the way, is why the health care laws will stand. There are a few states challenging this, but no one thinks it will get overthrown, because it would also outlaw social security and medicare/caid. That's just political theater.

AGAIN, I'm not trying to say that mandatory insurance is a good thing, I'm just trying to set the analogies a bit more logically. And that's what Sentenced asked for when he started this conversation.

Also, I'm sure we're all smart and mature enough to realize that I post here a lot, and not always as a representative of my company, right? Right? Separate the man from the job, please. Thank you.
Geoff@Bestop is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 11:10 AM   #69
Jeeper
 
GroceryGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Posts: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff@Bestop View Post
I'm not sure why the Post Office analogy always gets used. The Post Office actually does the work of delivering mail, and employs more people than anyone but Walmart. It's a business, with some government protections. (but no money - they haven't received direct federal funds since the 80's).

That means it's nothing like what's happening in Health Care.

Health Care Reform does not mean that the government will run the hospitals and clinics, or that the doctors will get hired and fired by the government. You won't go to the "post office" doctor's office to get medical help.

Instead, it's basically a series of reforms aimed at the insurance companies.

A better analogy would be the SEC, which was formed to regulate Wall Street, or the FDA, which regulates food and drugs.

I'm not saying that makes it a good thing, I'm just saying the Post Office analogy doesn't work.
the post office isn't some company the government owns. It is the goverment. If the board of directors get appointed by the US President, then approved by the Senate, it's a government run business, much like your healthcare is going to be. Don't let the Supreme Court pull the wool over your eyes. It gets immunity, eminent domain powers, it have has a monopoly stranglehold on the use of YOUR mailbox. It's illegal for you, or anyone to use that box. It's the government, running the show. It's EXACTLY like healthcare.

You are correct in that government won't "run" hospitals or hire and fire doctors. They'll set it up like public schools, orchestrated by a local governing body, sucking up taxes for what? A 20 year old text book?

Oh yeah, I forgot about the FDIC, and the Fed, and SEC.

That your government, disquised. They call the shots. Go read about when, and how all those "businesses" were created and why.
__________________
Yeah, I'd stop playing around with that. It looks expensive.
GroceryGrabber is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 11:21 AM   #70
Jeeper
 
Schmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by GroceryGrabber View Post
. . . it's a government run business, much like your healthcare is going to be. Don't let the Supreme Court pull the wool over your eyes. It gets immunity, eminent domain powers, it have has a monopoly stranglehold on the use of YOUR mailbox. It's illegal for you, or anyone to use that box. It's the government, running the show. It's EXACTLY like healthcare.

You are correct in that government won't "run" hospitals or hire and fire doctors. They'll set it up like public schools, orchestrated by a local governing body, sucking up taxes for what? A 20 year old text book?

Not disagreeing with you, but rather trying to understand . . . why do you feel that the bill that was passed will turn healthcare into a government run business like the post office? I keep hearing this point, but based on the limited information I've seen regarding the plan and the 7 key points that have been provided, I'm having a hard time seeing the government take over aspect.
__________________
Bite the hand that feeds you . . . you've had more than enough to eat already.
Schmo is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 11:28 AM   #71
delicate %$^&*@ flower

WF Lifetime Member
 
tiny terror's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Posts: 14,753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff@Bestop View Post

Also, I'm sure we're all smart and mature enough to realize that I post here a lot, and not always as a representative of my company, right? Right? Separate the man from the job, please. Thank you.

I don't think you have anything to worry about, Geoff. I don't think I've read opinions from anyone who sounds as even handed as you. Although I don't think you've been posting enough. Please work on that.
tiny terror is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 03:47 PM   #72
Jeeper
 
GroceryGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Posts: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmo View Post
Not disagreeing with you, but rather trying to understand . . . why do you feel that the bill that was passed will turn healthcare into a government run business like the post office? I keep hearing this point, but based on the limited information I've seen regarding the plan and the 7 key points that have been provided, I'm having a hard time seeing the government take over aspect.
I'll try to explain it the best I can, without loading it up with legal crap. I use the post office as an example of just a service the government tries to provide and has failed at. I like this example due to it being a simply task. Deliver this, to here. That's all it is. I also like to use the post office because not only is this an easy concept, but there is no competition for it. Nobody is allowed to deliver letters. Yet somehow, someway, it's failing. It has been for some time now. The recent trend on "online mail" is simply just pounding the final nail in the coffin. So what's the government's answer? Raise prices to make up the lack of revenue. Now I'm no business owner, nor a CEO, but if I were the last thing I'd be doing is raising the cost of my service or product. The post office is just a great example of how something simple, got burned.

Now what I think your doing is compairing the post office and healthcare on a more intimate and thought out level, so showing you a disaster that is the post office doesn't cut it. That's a good thing. You're using your head. More people need to be doing this. If you want a real, true to life compairison of how healthcare is going to be run, you need to look at one of the most evil, crooked, and mysterious machines the government has. It robs you blind, it destroys wealth, it steals jobs, has no congressional oversight, nobody really knows what it's up to, and a place so wicked that if you're in DC, you aren't allowed to photograph it or pose near it. I'm talking about the Federal Reserve.

For those of you still with me. I'm about to get boring lol! But if you are on the fence about healthcare, or interested in the Fed, continue.

Unlike the post office, the Fed is not authorized by our Constitution, like healthcare. There's a good reason why our Founders didn't want our government taking care of us like Obama wants to do, and the Fed is the materialization of why.

The Fed was supposidly dreampt up by the leaders of the county's banks. The idea behind it, like healthcare, is "good intentioned". It was sold on the idea that the Fed would be the responder, and protector of economic meltdowns and Wall Street panics. It would maintain stability in the economy, credit the United States, and regulate banking institutions, with the end result being maximum employment, and company, stock, interest rate, and price stability. Yippie! We will all have jobs and maximum income while market prices remain low! Sounds like a dream come true, much like healthcare. Oh boy I don't need to worry about losing my health insurance and the cost will be so affordable and I can't be denied coverage!

So in 1913, The Federal Reserve Act was passed, and we all got filthy rich due to the economic stability.....UNTIL 1929 WHEN THE UNITED STATES ECONOMY MELTED DOWN INTO THE WORST ECONOMIC DISASTER WE COULD HAVE EVER IMAGINED!

What happened? I thought the Fed was supposed to save us from this sort of thing?

Yeah. Believe a politician. That's like trusting a car salesman. America got there pants pulled down by the government. They were pitched an idea that was so promising and they bought it. The government isn't here to help you out. They make it seem that way, but there's always a hidden agenda.

So what's the real reason the government wanted the Federal Reserve?

For starters, it's a power thing. Just like the Commerce Clause, the government wants to be in control of everything. Back in the 1920's the government was relatively weak. They could boss the states around, saying things like "you can't sell this" or "can't smoke that" "can't own one of these" etc and they wanted more. "winning" the state's rights wasn't enough. So what do you take over to make the most impact in a Capitalistic society?

Money

that's exactly what the Fed accomplished. The Fed is unaccountable. They answer to no one. Not even Congress. I'm sure you all remember seeing Bernake getting hammered by Senators and Reps...but did anything ever come of it? No! Because Bernake doesn't need Congressional Approval. That was all a horse and pony show. Do you think healthcare decisions will need Congress' approval? They'll pass a bill, like the Fed, Iraq, Social Security, authorizing who knows to actually call the shots. A person getting payed with YOUR tax money, that works for the government controlling a "service" that YOU don't even get to vote in.

This healthcare bill claims price control. Makes healthcare itself more affordable. The Fed made the same claims. History has shown us numerous times that when you make things artificially low, bad things happen. Look at our current meltdown. The Fed kept interest rates low to encourage a housing boom we saw in the 90's. We're paying for it now. Boom and bust. Every decade or so. The economy isn't allowed to dictate it's own rates, and prices without government approval. It's interfearing with the natural ebb and flow of the market. Look at cash for clunkers for more proof. A mini auto sector boom....and bust. If Obama gets his way, Washington will have the power to do this with drugs, services, and money by manipulation of insurance companies, much how the Fed manipulates banks and interest for economic control.

Lastly, I'd like to end on the "mystery" note. We don't know how much money the Fed actually printed up last year. We don't know who they are doing deals with. What nations are we lending to and getting credited for? The real answer is, we don't know. On paper, the Fed is a private bank. But is it? Washington appoints the board, dictates salary, and calls the shots. You better believe healthcare will end up this way. A few thousand people, dictating the lives of millions. It will appear the insurance companies are in charge, similar to banks. Banks are nothing but puppets of the Fed, and FDIC. both of which, are proxies of the American government. GM is a private company too. Is it?

Is it?

It's bad enough the federal government tells me what mpg my car gets, how fast to drive, what substances I can put in my body, what guns I can own, etc. etc. etc. I don't need them telling me what I can and can't eat, be punished for junk food or smoking, and deny a service I want done that I want. Healthcare is one of the few freedoms we have left in this country. The government can't touch it, nor manipulate it. Let's try and keep it that way.

My hat is off if you read all that lol! I owe you a beer....I mean chocolate milk
__________________
Yeah, I'd stop playing around with that. It looks expensive.
GroceryGrabber is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 05:11 PM   #73
Jeeper
 
Mike Honcho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 62
Grocery Grabber you are killing me. You have posted too much for me to quote everything so I will debate a few key points.

1. The post office is a bad analogy. It was actually fairly viable for most of its existence until the internet and email made people stop writing letters to each other. Advancing technology killed the post office, not inept government leadership.

2. You are also convinced that the government can't do anything right. I agree they have had there share of screw ups. You asked for someone to give JUST ONE example of something the US Government has done that they did not screw up. I have one for you:

The Department of Defense

Yeah they aren't perfect, but they've won a few wars, liberated a few countries, invented half the modern technology we use every day, etc. Not too shabby for a bunch of government idiots.
Mike Honcho is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 05:22 PM   #74
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,866
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Honcho View Post
Grocery Grabber you are killing me. You have posted too much for me to quote everything so I will debate a few key points.

1. The post office is a bad analogy. It was actually fairly viable for most of its existence until the internet and email made people stop writing letters to each other. Advancing technology killed the post office, not inept government leadership.

2. You are also convinced that the government can't do anything right. I agree they have had there share of screw ups. You asked for someone to give JUST ONE example of something the US Government has done that they did not screw up. I have one for you:

The Department of Defense

Yeah they aren't perfect, but they've won a few wars, liberated a few countries, invented half the modern technology we use every day, etc. Not too shabby for a bunch of government idiots.
Lol.
$300 toilet seats.
Military intelligence...
__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 05:31 PM   #75
Jeeper
 
GroceryGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Posts: 282
Private companies like Lockheed Honeywell, and Boeing for example produce the technology, not the government.

I also can't recall a war since WW2 that hasn't ended in controversy...if it ended at all.

If you read my post it was actually about compairisons between the Fed and healthcare. Not the post office. I gave you warning not to read it.

Not sure who produces space technology though. That may be government created. Lots of good from that
__________________
Yeah, I'd stop playing around with that. It looks expensive.
GroceryGrabber is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 06:12 PM   #76
Moderator

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
schnutzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: ring side seats to the the country's largest circus
Posts: 28,072
Send a message via AIM to schnutzy
Quote:
Originally Posted by GroceryGrabber View Post
Private companies like Lockheed Honeywell, and Boeing for example produce the technology, not the government.

and those companies contract out to the DoD. all those projects are built with federal money and the guidelines set out by the federal gov.

an example that may have been better then DoD is NASA. alot of cool stuff comes out of there.
__________________
clinging on to sanity, one motorcycle at a time.
schnutzy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 06:22 PM   #77
Moderator

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
schnutzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: ring side seats to the the country's largest circus
Posts: 28,072
Send a message via AIM to schnutzy
Quote:
So in 1913, The Federal Reserve Act was passed, and we all got filthy rich due to the economic stability.....UNTIL 1929 WHEN THE UNITED STATES ECONOMY MELTED DOWN INTO THE WORST ECONOMIC DISASTER WE COULD HAVE EVER IMAGINED!


during the 1920's a new idea came about. buying on credit at a personal level. you could buy anything on credit, including stock. people were buying and buying and buying, but they were using credit to pay. the Fed really didnt know what to do with this, everything about buying on credit was very new, to both the consumer and the people at the Fed. now the main point of buying stock is to buy low and sell high. however this doesnt not work out to well when there is just no one left to buy the stock. the people who were at the bottom of the financial food chain were investing, with no one to sell to. this is part of the big reason that the market crashed(there is also a very interesting story there about how the Kennedy family made their money, i just cant quite remember it)

basically, its not that the Fed didnt work, or is the direct cause of the depression in the 1930s, its just that they did not have experience to deal with what was happening, simply cause it had never happened. it also does not help that the thinking of the big wigs back in the day was still in favor of capitalism.

what happened in the 20s is extremely similar to the housing crash. people were buying things that they just could not afford
__________________
clinging on to sanity, one motorcycle at a time.
schnutzy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 11:12 PM   #78
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 37
yeah alot of cool shit does come from nasa, its a shame we scrapped the shuttle program
jwalk214 is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-25-2010, 11:14 PM   #79
Moderator

WF Supporting Member
::WF Moderator::
 
schnutzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: ring side seats to the the country's largest circus
Posts: 28,072
Send a message via AIM to schnutzy
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalk214 View Post
yeah alot of cool shit does come from nasa, its a shame we scrapped the shuttle program
hehehehehe, no its not. u should see whats comin up next
__________________
clinging on to sanity, one motorcycle at a time.
schnutzy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-26-2010, 01:23 AM   #80
Jeeper
 
Pro Comp TJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Harpers Ferry, WV
Posts: 61
Competiton for the private sector drives costs down and also runs them into the ground because they can't compete which will make everyone have to have Obamacare. As far as paying for others who don't have coverage, get a job and you can get coverage and also why not fix those parts of the system instead of passing a million page bill they never read. There are problems with our system I will agree but fix the problems not destroy our awesome country and make us like Canada or England!
Pro Comp TJ is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-26-2010, 06:01 AM   #81
Jeeper
 
GroceryGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Posts: 282
You guys are missing the point of that post. I'm not debating the causes of the great depression. The point is here was something the government authorized to "help we the people, and make life better" when in fact it does nothing, it actually makes things worse. It got sold, just like healthcare, with big promises. Like the Fed, it won't deliver.

The private sector is responsible for the technology you see. Jeeps aren't government engineered. Just because I tell Chrysler "hey, build me a sweet tank with large cannons, that can go anywhere, and can't be destroyed" and I pay for it, doesn't mean I take credit for the construction of the vehicle. So no, the government gets no credit for it. Chrysler does.

The Fed didn't have experience? We've had the Fed nearly a century now, and we just experienced a pretty nice economic panic. Experience has nothing to do with it.

You can nick-nack these things all you want. But even then, 1 thing against healthcare exsists that simply can't be debated...

The fact the Constitution doesn't authorize it.

Go look up Article 1, Section 8. It has a list of things the government is allowed to do. I see "responsibility for healthcare of all citizens" no where
__________________
Yeah, I'd stop playing around with that. It looks expensive.
GroceryGrabber is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-26-2010, 10:07 AM   #82
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Geoff@Bestop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,612
Grocery: You are saying that the government doesn't deserve any credit for the things that actually go right, because all they're doing is just writing the checks, using our money.

But isn't that exactly what they're going to do with health care?

You go to your doctor, your hospital, your clinic, just like you did last year. Except now, everyone there will have insurance, not just some. Some of those people will have the bill for the insurance covered by the government. Most will have it covered by their employer. Some will pay for the insurance themselves. But no one will be there with no insurance.

I think that saying "government shouldn't pay for their insurance" is a valid point. There's definitely an argument there.
Geoff@Bestop is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-26-2010, 10:14 AM   #83
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Geoff@Bestop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by GroceryGrabber View Post

The fact the Constitution doesn't authorize it.

Go look up Article 1, Section 8. It has a list of things the government is allowed to do. I see "responsibility for healthcare of all citizens" no where
The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly in favor of increased Federal power. I realize saying that will set you off, but the Supremes are the ones we entrust to interpret the Constitution. Overturning Section 8 would also mean the end of social security and medicare. I don't think that's going to happen.
Geoff@Bestop is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-26-2010, 10:44 AM   #84
Jeeper
 
Schmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,586
You guys make very interesting points . . . Thank you!!!

I've been hearing a lot of comments around this bill allowing the government to control or take over health care . . . do you feel that with the passing of this new bill, the government is being given the control right off the bat or do you feel this is a slipery slope that will lead to government control in the future if actions are not taken to prevent it?
__________________
Bite the hand that feeds you . . . you've had more than enough to eat already.
Schmo is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-26-2010, 11:22 AM   #85
Jeeper
 
jupiterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,036
Send a message via AIM to jupiterboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmo View Post
You guys make very interesting points . . . Thank you!!!

I've been hearing a lot of comments around this bill allowing the government to control or take over health care . . . do you feel that with the passing of this new bill, the government is being given the control right off the bat or do you feel this is a slipery slope that will lead to government control in the future if actions are not taken to prevent it?
This is a bit of a leading question, however, if it is a slippery slope I suspect it will be a short one. Maybe we should look at the servicing of the national debt, our decreasing ability to finance the government with the sale of bonds, and the general insolvency of all the government programs associated with health care?
jupiterboy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-26-2010, 11:23 AM   #86
Jeeper
 
jupiterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,036
Send a message via AIM to jupiterboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff@Bestop View Post
The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly in favor of increased Corporate power.
Fixed.
jupiterboy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-26-2010, 11:24 AM   #87
Jeeper
 
GroceryGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Posts: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff@Bestop View Post
Grocery: You are saying that the government doesn't deserve any credit for the things that actually go right, because all they're doing is just writing the checks, using our money.

But isn't that exactly what they're going to do with health care?

You go to your doctor, your hospital, your clinic, just like you did last year. Except now, everyone there will have insurance, not just some. Some of those people will have the bill for the insurance covered by the government. Most will have it covered by their employer. Some will pay for the insurance themselves. But no one will be there with no insurance.

I think that saying "government shouldn't pay for their insurance" is a valid point. There's definitely an argument there.
Show me something they pull off. I give credit where it's due.

If you guys want a nanny state government, that's fine. We're still allowed freedom of thought (for the most part) and your entitled to your opinions.

You can't sit here and argue the fact the Constitution authorizes this. If you want government to take care of you, why not do it at the state level then? The federal government is there to maintain order, and national defense. Nothing more nothing less. Contrary to popular belief, we aren't a majority rule democracy, we're supposed to be a federated republic. Each state is set up to govern ITSELF. why not use it?

The Supreme Court was ment to act as a ref in state vs people, state vs state, federal government vs people etc. Uphold the Constitution. It's pretty obvious they don't. They ALWAYS rule in favor of the state in cases that matter. FDR packed that court. This is fact. Since then, it's become a political circus of dems vs reps, just like all the other branches. I love when people say "interperate the constitution" what is it? Written in Chinese? It's plain English! Just read it!

Article 1 section 8 doesn't need overturned. If this section was followed in the first place, we wouldn't have SS and Medicare.

Personally, I don't care if it passes or not. It will pass either now, or in 5 years, maybe 20. But sooner or later, you'll get it. There is no stopping this power hungery, hulking, out of control government now. They get what they want. Maybe not right when they want it, but eventually they get it.

Just look at our government how it was pre 1919. That's how it should look. Nearly non-exsistant, with just enough power to unite the states to deal with foriegn affairs. Now it's invaded every single aspect of your life. Ask youself, "did all those brave souls in 1776 die for this?"

do a little reading, you'll be shocked at what our founder's idea was for our government.
__________________
Yeah, I'd stop playing around with that. It looks expensive.
GroceryGrabber is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-26-2010, 11:31 AM   #88
Jeeper
 
jupiterboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,036
Send a message via AIM to jupiterboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by GroceryGrabber View Post
Just look at our government how it was pre 1919. That's how it should look. Nearly non-exsistant, with just enough power to unite the states to deal with foriegn affairs.
So Glass-Steagall was a mistake? Government expanding into the affairs of business? IMO, this was the first hint of the corporatocracy. Should the government not acknowledge a threat to sovereignty posed by business?
jupiterboy is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-26-2010, 04:54 PM   #89
Jeeper
 
GroceryGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Posts: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by jupiterboy View Post
So Glass-Steagall was a mistake? Government expanding into the affairs of business? IMO, this was the first hint of the corporatocracy. Should the government not acknowledge a threat to sovereignty posed by business?
The good old Banking Act...

Well, of all people, a Democrat killed it. That should tell you something. A Democrat, actually deregulated something.

Do I think Glass/Steagal was a mistake? Yeah. I'm a free market capitalist. I believe in capitalism in it's purest forms. By canning the Bank Act it promoted financial innovation, greater international competitiveness and cheaper and more convenient financial services.

But enough of this economy/finacial crap. I'm just trying not to get off topic. I don't want to get into a big argument over the economy. It's boring to read lol! So with that being said....

Healthcare sucks

at least we can agree that Jeeps kick ass
__________________
Yeah, I'd stop playing around with that. It looks expensive.
GroceryGrabber is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Old 03-26-2010, 07:42 PM   #90
Jeeper
 
skeeter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Posts: 3,866
Send a message via Yahoo to skeeter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmo View Post
You guys make very interesting points . . . Thank you!!!

I've been hearing a lot of comments around this bill allowing the government to control or take over health care . . . do you feel that with the passing of this new bill, the government is being given the control right off the bat or do you feel this is a slipery slope that will lead to government control in the future if actions are not taken to prevent it?
The democrats have stated very clearly over and over again that this is just the start and that the ultimate plan is to drive private insurance out of business and have the government control health care.
They've made no secret of this.

Wow, jupiterboy is back, they're bringing out the big guns...

__________________
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782

Arguing with a truck driver is like wrestling with a pig in mud, eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
skeeter is offline   Quote Quick Reply
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Are you in Favor of National Health Care? gus54 Off-Topic 42 03-05-2010 07:40 PM



» Network Links
»Jeep Parts
» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:17 PM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC