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Old 11-15-2012, 12:37 PM   #31
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Maybe "most of the rest of the country" by geography, but the popular vote did go blue. So really "most" of the voting citizens were in agreement.

But yes, I think splitting off the American Taliban would be a great idea. Seriously, good riddance. Let them have their religious state. Pretty much anyone that's not white, straight, Christian and male would get shafted, but at its base that's what it's all about anyway - going back to those glory days when women and minorities were under the boot.
Let me quote myself here.

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All that said, I think the current secession talk is simply to get the attention of the federal government and let them know they are being watched carefully. If you go and look at the states filling petitions, it wasn't just red states, but also some states Obama carried in the election. I think it just says people are tired of what they feel is an overreaching federal government.

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Old 11-15-2012, 03:09 PM   #32
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Google news search.
http://www.examiner.com/article/all-...sion-petitions

I think this needs more attention with the intent of demanding changes in our corrupt govt. We have tossed our founding principals and seemed to adopt a "evolving constitution". Granted it wasn't perfect due to our civil history its our foundation. Our founding fathers set processes in place that if changes were needed that we would legally amend our constitution. Our current "leaders" think its ok to just set our constitution aside and pass whatever they like. Govt is too big and way to overbearing.
Just my .02

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Old 11-15-2012, 03:29 PM   #33
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I too think the Federal Government is way too large. As well as most of our state Governments. But I'm not sure we will ever be able to shrink them down. As far as seccession, I say, United We Stand, Divided We Fall.
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:12 PM   #34
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The states were meant to be autonomous entities, with the federal government being the united face of america to any "state" that was not part of america. And for the founding fathers, the word "state" meant what "country" means to us today.. So when they called it united states back then, translated into today's lingo it stands as 50 countries in a union. And if it was internal affairs, it was none of the federal government's business...

I hope things can be brought back that way. But somehow I think that is wistful thinking.. most americans don't even understand the history of the nation, nor the meaning of cultural differences or the terms liberty and coexistence.. someone here made a comment that the popular vote went obama's way, but it was 50 something to 40 something.. live and let live is a philosophy I agree with, but doesn't seem to be "democratic" these days..

Alas, but I'm just a passive observer that has utmost respect for the founding fathers and the great experiment.. It lasted way longer than they even imagined.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:12 PM   #35
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I too think the Federal Government is way too large. As well as most of our state Governments. But I'm not sure we will ever be able to shrink them down. As far as seccession, I say, United We Stand, Divided We Fall.
together we are falling
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:09 PM   #36
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The states were meant to be autonomous entities, with the federal government being the united face of america to any "state" that was not part of america. And for the founding fathers, the word "state" meant what "country" means to us today.. So when they called it united states back then, translated into today's lingo it stands as 50 countries in a union. And if it was internal affairs, it was none of the federal government's business...

I hope things can be brought back that way. But somehow I think that is wistful thinking.. most americans don't even understand the history of the nation, nor the meaning of cultural differences or the terms liberty and coexistence.. someone here made a comment that the popular vote went obama's way, but it was 50 something to 40 something.. live and let live is a philosophy I agree with, but doesn't seem to be "democratic" these days..

Alas, but I'm just a passive observer that has utmost respect for the founding fathers and the great experiment.. It lasted way longer than they even imagined.


Well said. Without an understanding that the Constitution doesn't grant you a thing or govern your life at all you cannot begin to understand the American Republic as it was founded. You certainly can't understand Liberty.

I believe you can appreciate "A Republic; If you can keep it"... sad we couldn't...
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:14 PM   #37
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I'm not really big on succession, but the former Soviet Union broke apart from basically being broke. What's good for the Goose....???
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:22 PM   #38
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Our current "leaders" think its ok to just set our constitution aside and pass whatever they like. Govt is too big and way to overbearing.
Please provide specific examples or our current leaders passing laws that go against the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers forbid requiring citizens to carry health insurance or the reforming of Wall Street, considering that neither of those things existed back then.

But I do agree that government is too far-reaching. Some of them want to reach right into my body and force me to bear unwanted children by limiting access to birth control and outlawing abortion. And they also want to reach into the lives of consenting adult couples and make sure that their commitments are forever seen as lesser than marriage. And they certainly want to reach into my pocket and make sure that I'm paying 35% of my income in taxes while the people who make much more than me pay 15%, and corporations pay even less than that.

So pretty much it's a difference of opinion as to what constitutes "far-reaching". For me, it should be hands-on with regulating businesses and hands-off in regulating personal behavior. For conservatives it seems to be the opposite: Let the corporations run wild but keep a tight grip on people's private lives. I guess that's why we'll never see eye to eye.
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Old 11-15-2012, 08:40 PM   #39
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Please provide specific examples or our current leaders passing laws that go against the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers forbid requiring citizens to carry health insurance or the reforming of Wall Street, considering that neither of those things existed back then.

But I do agree that government is too far-reaching. Some of them want to reach right into my body and force me to bear unwanted children by limiting access to birth control and outlawing abortion. And they also want to reach into the lives of consenting adult couples and make sure that their commitments are forever seen as lesser than marriage. And they certainly want to reach onto my pocket and make sure that I'm paying 35% of my income in taxes while the people who make much more than me pay 15%, and corporations pay even less than that.

So pretty much it's a difference of opinion as to what constitutes "far-reaching". For me, it should be hands-on with regulating businesses and hands-off in regulating personal behavior. For conservatives, it seems to be the opposite: Let the corporations run wild but keep a tight grip people's private lives. I guess that's why we'll never see eye to eye.
sounds like a good reason to split the country up to me.your view and mine are completely opposite but we both have that right and shouldn't have to live under the others ideals
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:08 PM   #40
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Please provide specific examples or our current leaders passing laws that go against the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers forbid requiring citizens to carry health insurance or the reforming of Wall Street, considering that neither of those things existed back then.
With pleasure.

US Patriot Act (reauthorized)
Bamercare (duh)
CIA facilities
Death warrants for US Citizens
GitMo

Like em or not, those are all unconstitutional, and all on Bamers watch. As far as laws unconstitutional that we have, that list is plentiful. Reread the 10th, and most important, amendment. Let us try again: the federal government is NOT a state. It is an authority of states. The decisions of your governence belong on the state level. The common benifits are defined: commerce, trade, money, defense, liberty, treaties.


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But I do agree that government is too far-reaching. Some of them want to reach right into my body and force me to bear unwanted children by limiting access to birth control and outlawing abortion. And they also want to reach into the lives of consenting adult couples and make sure that their commitments are forever seen as lesser than marriage. And they certainly want to reach into my pocket and make sure that I'm paying 35% of my income in taxes while the people who make much more than me pay 15%, and corporations pay even less than that.
Getting warmer...

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So pretty much it's a difference of opinion as to what constitutes "far-reaching". For me, it should be hands-on with regulating businesses and hands-off in regulating personal behavior. For conservatives it seems to be the opposite: Let the corporations run wild but keep a tight grip on people's private lives. I guess that's why we'll never see eye to eye.
And cold again. It is actually well defined. We call those definitions the US Constitution.

Just because the People do not follow it does not mean it isn't law.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:21 PM   #41
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The Patriot Act and Gitmo happened on Obama's watch? Oh come on. He may not be getting rid of them, but he sure didn't create them.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:51 PM   #42
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The Patriot Act and Gitmo happened on Obama's watch? Oh come on. He may not be getting rid of them, but he sure didn't create them.
No, the sunset of the Patriot Acts' most evil items happened on Bamers watch. He renewed them at all oportunities.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...-act-criticism
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-27/p..._s=PM:POLITICS

Forced purchase mandates? Really? That is not only unconstitutional, it spits on Jefferson and Franklins graves. I will not abide it.

Actions of the government are unconstitutional, laws "can't" be. Some are, but it is the ACTION.

The US Constitution does not grant one right. It does not govern man: this is the beauty of it. We are capable of ruling ourselves, so we require nothing. We are free, in every since, to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. So long as you don't infringe on others you "can" do it. The Constitution regulates government. "Congress shall make no law"...
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:06 PM   #43
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Please provide specific examples or our current leaders passing laws that go against the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers forbid requiring citizens to carry health insurance or the reforming of Wall Street, considering that neither of those things existed back then.

But I do agree that government is too far-reaching. Some of them want to reach right into my body and force me to bear unwanted children by limiting access to birth control and outlawing abortion. And they also want to reach into the lives of consenting adult couples and make sure that their commitments are forever seen as lesser than marriage. And they certainly want to reach into my pocket and make sure that I'm paying 35% of my income in taxes while the people who make much more than me pay 15%, and corporations pay even less than that.

So pretty much it's a difference of opinion as to what constitutes "far-reaching". For me, it should be hands-on with regulating businesses and hands-off in regulating personal behavior. For conservatives it seems to be the opposite: Let the corporations run wild but keep a tight grip on people's private lives. I guess that's why we'll never see eye to eye.
You are paying 35% Income tax? If so you are in the highest tax bracket! You are either rich, a liar, or an idiot.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:52 PM   #44
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Please provide specific examples or our current leaders passing laws that go against the Constitution. I don't think the founding fathers forbid requiring citizens to carry health insurance or the reforming of Wall Street, considering that neither of those things existed back then.

But I do agree that government is too far-reaching. Some of them want to reach right into my body and force me to bear unwanted children by limiting access to birth control and outlawing abortion. And they also want to reach into the lives of consenting adult couples and make sure that their commitments are forever seen as lesser than marriage. And they certainly want to reach into my pocket and make sure that I'm paying 35% of my income in taxes while the people who make much more than me pay 15%, and corporations pay even less than that.

So pretty much it's a difference of opinion as to what constitutes "far-reaching". For me, it should be hands-on with regulating businesses and hands-off in regulating personal behavior. For conservatives it seems to be the opposite: Let the corporations run wild but keep a tight grip on people's private lives. I guess that's why we'll never see eye to eye.
I think with 4000 abortions happening everyday, you and those like you need to start using birth control and quit killing all these children.
This country is going down the tubes because of people like yourself Ed.
BTW.....maybe you need to look at how much you pay in taxes towards these murders.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:07 PM   #45
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I think with 4000 abortions happening everyday, you and those like you need to start using birth control and quit killing all these children.
This country is going down the tubes because of people like yourself Ed.
BTW.....maybe you need to look at how much you pay in taxes towards these murders.
4k in the US daily? Gonna have to call BS.

Assuming a US population of 330 mil, roughly half are women (165m), and roughly half are breeding capable (82.5m), assuming half support abortion (41.25m), and 10% actually will have an abortion (4.125m), over a generation of 20 years that is 565 a day. I believe these figures are more than fair in your corner.

Do you have reliable sources to show otherwise?

Either way, it (like so many things) is a state decision.

We all get heated about politics, lets leave insults & name calling out of it please.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:49 PM   #46
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something every american should watch.. Ron paul knew what was happening years ago, and is predicting what is about too... if more politicians had his view on things
Congressman Ron Paul's Farewell Speech to Congress - YouTube
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:53 PM   #47
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The Patriot Act and Gitmo happened on Obama's watch? Oh come on. He may not be getting rid of them, but he sure didn't create them.
NDAA did
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:14 AM   #48
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NDAA did
VERY unconstitutional. (Not just a wee bit). Hard to pay taxes wih this law and call yourself Christian. Jesus didn't hook car batteries to peoples nuts, simulate drowning, or hold people in a cell for ever and ever with no charge. If you fund those things, you support those actions. It may be you locked away with no charges or trial next time.

But again, it isn't about what the law says. The Constitution applies to the govt, if they don't follow it, or violate it's directives, then that is the unconstutionalitly. It must be an action, as the Constitution is a law.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:39 AM   #49
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You are paying 35% Income tax? If so you are in the highest tax bracket! You are either rich, a liar, or an idiot.
Being in any one of the highest tax brackets doesn't mean you're rich. It means that someone earned a lot more than someone else. We fall into one of the higher tax brackets, but we are by no means "rich". We live paycheck to paycheck like so many other Americans. When we made our purchases and negotiated our salaries, we budgeted for what we needed, not expecting that at some point we'd just have more of that salary taken. We have the same or higher expenses, but not the same income.

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VERY unconstitutional. (Not just a wee bit). Hard to pay taxes wih this law and call yourself Christian. Jesus didn't hook car batteries to peoples nuts, simulate drowning, or hold people in a cell for ever and ever with no charge. If you fund those things, you support those actions. It may be you locked away with no charges or trial next time.
I certainly don't condone torture of such a nature, but let's remember that we aren't interrogating common thieves. American lives are at stake, and not just ten or twenty.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:12 PM   #50
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Being in any one of the highest tax brackets doesn't mean you're rich. It means that someone earned a lot more than someone else. We fall into one of the higher tax brackets, but we are by no means "rich". We live paycheck to paycheck like so many other Americans. When we made our purchases and negotiated our salaries, we budgeted for what we needed, not expecting that at some point we'd just have more of that salary taken. We have the same or higher expenses, but not the same income.



I certainly don't condone torture of such a nature, but let's remember that we aren't interrogating common thieves. American lives are at stake, and not just ten or twenty.
Take a math class and learn to live within your means, no sympathy from me. For the record I am for a flat income tax without deductions and loopholes. For me it would be alright if if started higher for a year or few, until the deficit is reduced. Once the deficit is under control I would expect the flat tax to drop.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:29 PM   #51
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4k in the US daily? Gonna have to call BS.

Assuming a US population of 330 mil, roughly half are women (165m), and roughly half are breeding capable (82.5m), assuming half support abortion (41.25m), and 10% actually will have an abortion (4.125m), over a generation of 20 years that is 565 a day. I believe these figures are more than fair in your corner.

Do you have reliable sources to show otherwise?

Either way, it (like so many things) is a state decision.

We all get heated about politics, lets leave insults & name calling out of it please.
If you would read again before responding his "name calling" was actually not towards you and towards someone else with a login name that begins with ed.


By the way that "torture" as you call it has saved American lives.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:42 PM   #52
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I only have one thing to add to this convo and I'm not even really adding anything but a personal feeling: when I joined the military I joined to defend this nation, I have battles (friends in the army) from all over this great country of ours. I feel it as a personal assault and a slap in the face of those that have given their lives for states wanting to secede from the U.S.. with that being said gripe all you want about how things are going but this country has been in some pretty bad shape before but we all stuck together and turned it around.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:55 PM   #53
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Wow. Starting to feel like New Jersey's gas stations with people pulling out their guns on one another when the going gets tough.

Can we agree to disagree in a slightly more "Jeep'ish" manner and remember we share at least one important bond? I too feel strongly but accept, and welcome, differences in opinion (but this did make for interesting reading!)
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:09 PM   #54
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I only have one thing to add to this convo and I'm not even really adding anything but a personal feeling: when I joined the military I joined to defend this nation, I have battles (friends in the army) from all over this great country of ours. I feel it as a personal assault and a slap in the face of those that have given their lives for states wanting to secede from the U.S.. with that being said gripe all you want about how things are going but this country has been in some pretty bad shape before but we all stuck together and turned it around.
I agree with you. I personally don't want to see any division in our country. We are however divided as a nation. I want to see this topic discussed more with my only hope of our leaders realizing how far away from our founding we are and why its a bad thing. We need to get back on track to being a representative republic and not 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Thank you whole heartedly for your service. It's our honorable military that gives me hope.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:50 PM   #55
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We need to get back on track to being a representative republic and not 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
A nice tip of the hat to Franklin.


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:01 PM   #56
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Maybe "most of the rest of the country" by geography, but the popular vote did go blue. So really "most" of the voting citizens were in agreement.

But yes, I think splitting off the American Taliban would be a great idea. Seriously, good riddance. Let them have their religious state. Pretty much anyone that's not white, straight, Christian and male would get shafted, but at its base that's what it's all about anyway - going back to those glory days when women and minorities were under the boot.
Ugh, seriously? Do you have to slander those you don't share the same beliefs with? There are people who have experience with the Taliban here, you know. I must have missed out on those public stonings and amputations in Oklahoma.

Ironically tolerant statement.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:01 PM   #57
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So if one state secedes and we add Puerto Rico as a state, do we need to change the flag?
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:04 PM   #58
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You are paying 35% Income tax? If so you are in the highest tax bracket! You are either rich, a liar, or an idiot.
I'm in the 28% tax bracket, then pay another 15.3% in SSA/Medicare tax because I'm self-employed, then another 1.68% in state business tax due to self-employment. So I guess that's more like 45% in income-related taxes. I'm gonna go with "idiot".

As for abortions (because someone asked), according to the CDC there are about 1.2 million a year, down from a high of 1.6 million in 1990, so about 3,287 per day average. Yes, it would be great if 100% of people were 100% perfect in using 100% effective birth control 100% of the time, but that's not realistic.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:03 PM   #59
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Take a math class and learn to live within your means, no sympathy from me. For the record I am for a flat income tax without deductions and loopholes. For me it would be alright if if started higher for a year or few, until the deficit is reduced. Once the deficit is under control I would expect the flat tax to drop.
So much fail in this thread but Im going to pick this one out because it was the funniest to me. Im sure that the standard of living is much higher in a suburb of DC than it is in some buttfark backwoods area in NC. Some family making $120k outside of DC is just making enough to get by and lives in a $250k home that is probably 1500sq ft. The same $120k in backwoods NC will make you look like a millionaire living on a 50 acre estate in a 3000sq ft home. Even though the same family is taxed at the same bracket, one is much better off than the other.

Here are a few more luls
GITMO: because we are holding combatants who took up arms against us as POWs does not mean the MAN is going to come into your house and just arrest you and throw away the key for jaywalking. Because they prisoners are POWs, we can hold them indefinitely as long as military operations are ongoing. The kicker here is technically we arent in a war vs any one state, but a theology, so thats where things get a little messy. For better or worse, thats how it goes, but just because we are holding these guys in Cuba doesnt infringe on your rights as an American

Obamacare: Please show exactly where in the Constitution where healthcare is unconstitutional. Thats right, you cant and the Supreme Court agreed with it. The US Constitution sets the laws for establishing the US government and its three branches. And to rebut on the ZOMG STATES RIGHTS, if it were up to the states half of everyone wouldnt have any health care and it would just be the ol status quo. It was declared as a tax to play for healthcare. Just as the income tax is a tax to pay for government.

And as for this ridiculous secession talk, people need to get over it. Just because 25,000 people signed some petition doesnt mean that the state is going to go off on its own and the rest of the whole population of that state will go along with it. So your guy didnt win. Cry more. Most every election, at least 45% of the country's "guy" doesnt win. Texas signed some stupid online petition, with 50,000 entries. Big deal, thats a whole 0.2% of the population.

Oh, and I did see someone point out "You cant call yourself a christian and agree with abortion" or some such thing. News flash. Not everyone in the country is a Christian


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Old 11-16-2012, 03:20 PM   #60
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What about the indefinite detention of US citizens without trial?

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