How many are in favor of Succession? - Page 3 - Jeep Wrangler Forum
Jeep Wrangler Forum

Go Back   Jeep Wrangler Forum > General Discussion Forums > Off-Topic

Join Wrangler Forum Today


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on WranglerForum.com
Old 11-16-2012, 02:32 PM   #61
Jeeper
 
scipio337's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,294
Some very good points, but you lost me on this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by R4D4R View Post
Obamacare: Please show exactly where in the Constitution where healthcare is unconstitutional. Thats right, you cant and the Supreme Court agreed with it.
Could you point out exactly where it is allowed in the Constitution? Article and section would be great. Commerce clause? That would be a reach. The only reason it passed SCOTUS muster is because Roberts decided that it wasn't a "penalty" it was a "tax" (contrary to the fed government's arguments).

Read the decision. There's more logical contortions in Roberts' majority than there normally is in poltics (which is high to begin with). And that particular decision was only in regards to the penalty/tax/fee/whatever for noncompliance of the individual mandate, not a decision of other aspects of the law (many cases still pending).

At it's heart, the Contitution is not a list of what the government can't do, it's a limitation of what they can do under a federalist model. "Providing 'free' national healcare, condoms, 20 free gallons of gas a week, and a chicken in every pot" isn't one of those powers.

scipio337 is offline   Quick Reply
Old 11-16-2012, 02:47 PM   #62
Jeeper
 
ed98208's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 390
Obamacare isn't "free national health care". All it does is mandate that all Americans purchase private health insurance, and bars insurers from denying coverage to anyone. It's not universal healthcare. And the private insurers may not be able to deny anyone, but they can still raise the premiums so high as to make it impossible for the "undesirables" to buy it.

The yearly penalty for not having health insurance will be around $800 I think - far less than the cost of private coverage. I assume that most without insurance will just pay the penalty and stay uninsured.

ed98208 is offline   Quick Reply
Old 11-16-2012, 02:49 PM   #63
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: MA
Posts: 705
Quote:
Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
Some very good points, but you lost me on this one:



Could you point out exactly where it is allowed in the Constitution? Article and section would be great. Commerce clause? That would be a reach. The only reason it passed SCOTUS muster is because Roberts decided that it wasn't a "penalty" it was a "tax" (contrary to the fed government's arguments).

Read the decision. There's more logical contortions in Roberts' majority than there normally is in poltics (which is high to begin with). And that particular decision was only in regards to the penalty/tax/fee/whatever for noncompliance of the individual mandate, not a decision of other aspects of the law (many cases still pending).

At it's heart, the Contitution is not a list of what the government can't do, it's a limitation of what they can do under a federalist model. "Providing 'free' national healcare, condoms, 20 free gallons of gas a week, and a chicken in every pot" isn't one of those powers.
Thats my point. Its not in there at all, for or against. If its not in there to be allowed or disallowed, then its not exactly unconstitutional. There are several reaches to make it sound against the Constitution, but as you just mentioned, they are reaches at best

Also, thought of this on the way home. All these people are trying to secede because they think that some of this stuff is unconstitutional, notably Obamacare. Thats great, but we (and the USSC) said it wasnt, and seceding sure as hell IS unconstitutional. Take a look. We fought a war over it and everything. Crybabies, also look up irony. Youd get a chuckle out of it

My final point is this. We aren't "Redstaters" or "Bluestater", we are all Americans. Because we can argue about this in either direction and not get thrown in jail for it is one of the things that makes this country the greatest. Just because some of these recent decisions havent gone "your" way doesnt mean you should want out of the god damn country! That is just childish, like a little boy not getting his way in a game of football, crying about it and running home. Its great that everyone can voice their opinion in either direction and maybe some good will come out of it. But saying you want to secede from the country? Thats just ridiculous
__________________
~ Luke
2012 JKU SportS
33x12.5x15 Goodyear Duratracs
MB72 Wheels
R4D4R is offline   Quick Reply
Old 11-16-2012, 02:56 PM   #64
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 47
The odds of the American government granting any state permission to go its own way are on par with winning the lottery while getting hit by a meteor while seeing Bigfoot while finding gluten-free pizza that tastes like the real thing.
__________________
"RUBI MONSTER" 2012 Jeep Rubicon (silver) 2dr 6 speed manual, Teraflex leveling kit, 35's Dick Cepek Fun Country ll, Cobra 75 CB radio, Warn Rock Crawler Rear Bumper and Tire Carrier,fuel door,15" Procomp wheels, Smittybilt Stinger front bumper, Smittybilt flat flares.....
JKdrummer is offline   Quick Reply
Old 11-16-2012, 02:59 PM   #65
Jeeper
 
scipio337's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed98208 View Post
Obamacare isn't "free national health care". All it does is mandate that all Americans purchase private health insurance, and bars insurers from denying coverage to anyone. It's not universal healthcare. And the private insurers may not be able to deny anyone, but they can still raise the premiums so high as to make it impossible for the "undesirables" to buy it.

The yearly penalty for not having health insurance will be around $800 I think - far less than the cost of private coverage. I assume that most without insurance will just pay the penalty and stay uninsured.

Odd that you skipped the whole portion of federally financed state exchanges.
scipio337 is offline   Quick Reply
Old 11-16-2012, 03:02 PM   #66
Jeeper
 
scipio337's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by R4D4R View Post
Thats my point. Its not in there at all, for or against. If its not in there to be allowed or disallowed, then its not exactly unconstitutional. There are several reaches to make it sound against the Constitution, but as you just mentioned, they are reaches at best

Also, thought of this on the way home. All these people are trying to secede because they think that some of this stuff is unconstitutional, notably Obamacare. Thats great, but we (and the USSC) said it wasnt, and seceding sure as hell IS unconstitutional. Take a look. We fought a war over it and everything. Crybabies, also look up irony. Youd get a chuckle out of it

My final point is this. We aren't "Redstaters" or "Bluestater", we are all Americans. Because we can argue about this in either direction and not get thrown in jail for it is one of the things that makes this country the greatest. Just because some of these recent decisions havent gone "your" way doesnt mean you should want out of the god damn country! That is just childish, like a little boy not getting his way in a game of football, crying about it and running home. Its great that everyone can voice their opinion in either direction and maybe some good will come out of it. But saying you want to secede from the country? Thats just ridiculous
I think you missed my point. I believe (as others here might) that if the Constution doesn't grant a power in the enumerated powers, its unconstitutional. Simply put, if it's not "allowed" in the Constitution, then it is automatically "disallowed".

I agree with the rest, though. I think the whole secession thing is just sour grapes (and attention whoring).
scipio337 is offline   Quick Reply
Old 11-16-2012, 03:07 PM   #67
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by R4D4R View Post

My final point is this. We aren't "Redstaters" or "Bluestater", we are all Americans. Because we can argue about this in either direction and not get thrown in jail for it is one of the things that makes this country the greatest. Just because some of these recent decisions havent gone "your" way doesnt mean you should want out of the god damn country! That is just childish, like a little boy not getting his way in a game of football, crying about it and running home. Its great that everyone can voice their opinion in either direction and maybe some good will come out of it. But saying you want to secede from the country? Thats just ridiculous
__________________
"RUBI MONSTER" 2012 Jeep Rubicon (silver) 2dr 6 speed manual, Teraflex leveling kit, 35's Dick Cepek Fun Country ll, Cobra 75 CB radio, Warn Rock Crawler Rear Bumper and Tire Carrier,fuel door,15" Procomp wheels, Smittybilt Stinger front bumper, Smittybilt flat flares.....
JKdrummer is offline   Quick Reply
Old 11-16-2012, 03:19 PM   #68
Jeeper
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by free78 View Post
If you would read again before responding his "name calling" was actually not towards you and towards someone else with a login name that begins with ed.


By the way that "torture" as you call it has saved American lives.
Thank you!
__________________
Going to the mountains is going home.
John Muir
Big Lew is offline   Quick Reply
Old 11-16-2012, 08:54 PM   #69
Jeeper
 
BlueRidgeYJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by free78

If you would read again before responding his "name calling" was actually not towards you and towards someone else with a login name that begins with ed.

By the way that "torture" as you call it has saved American lives.
If I poured water down your throat until you genuinely thought I would kill you, what would you call it? It is torture, by definition. Leave a sour taste in your mouth? It does mine.

The end does not justify the means. Look at those in history who thought it did, that is a grizzly list.

I know Lew wasn't speaking to me, and I did not intend to be insulting to him. Lew, if I did, I appologize. I meant to reiterate this isn't the place.

Ed/Lew: I stand corrected, 3200 and change a day. Higher than I figured for sure, thanks for the clarification.

Ed: Don't try to explain self-employment taxes to those who get a check in April; they won't get it 'till they pay it. I know what ya mean, it is crazy.

Wat3rdog, great quote. My 2nd favorite.

R4DR4: Wow. I'll leave GitMo alone. As for Bamercare in the Constitution:

Attachment 178983

Pretty damn forboding. States right. MASS can say you have to buy insurance, and NY can say no 40oz Cokes, and GA can be Right to Work but THE US GOVT CAN NOT.

The SCOTUS also said money is speach, and corporations are totally people, so them stacking politicians pockets is just free speech. Agree?
The SCOTUS ... [Lilly Leadbetter Act]. Agree?

As IC said, detention of US citizens without trial is occuring, in direct violation of the Bill of Rights.

I thought the Constitution said Man, not American Man, is equal.

__________________
“Coming of age in a fascist police state will not be a barrel of fun for anybody, much less for people like me, who are not inclined to suffer Nazis gladly and feel only contempt for the cowardly flag-suckers who would gladly give up their outdated freedom to live for the mess of pottage they have been conned into believing will be freedom from fear.”
BlueRidgeYJ is offline   Quick Reply
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Jeep Wrangler Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




» Featured Product

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:42 PM.



Jeep®, Wrangler, Liberty, Wagoneer, Cherokee, and Grand Cherokee are copyrighted and trademarked to Chrysler Motors LLC.
Wranglerforum.com is not in any way associated with the Chrysler Motors LLC