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Old 11-19-2008, 06:19 AM   #61
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Well, I hope his point is why should we pay the military if we are going to pay the Mercs to do a job that we are paying someone else to do. At least that is how I feel...
Exactly. Everything is being privatized for profit. We even have an extra layer of middle men in health care that do nothing more than create a disinformation system to optimize the billing profit by misbilling.

There is also quality control over the gear. I wonder how many part suppliers for the US auto makers are also suppliers for the defense department. From the outside I would tend to think there is a national interest in keeping all these ducks in a row, so to speak. Preserving the R&D and manufacturing chains possibly shouldn't be trusted to private companies?

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Old 11-19-2008, 06:56 AM   #62
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Exactly. Everything is being privatized for profit. We even have an extra layer of middle men in health care that do nothing more than create a disinformation system to optimize the billing profit by misbilling.

There is also quality control over the gear. I wonder how many part suppliers for the US auto makers are also suppliers for the defense department. From the outside I would tend to think there is a national interest in keeping all these ducks in a row, so to speak. Preserving the R&D and manufacturing chains possibly shouldn't be trusted to private companies?
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about with respect to military manufacturing and privatization of the manufacturing sector. Do your homework and read up on how this country operates by private suppliers producing military components and how it's done.

Are you some kind of communist? Of course there's profit. Last time I checked, we live in a capitalist society where competition and profit define any business venture.

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Old 11-19-2008, 07:18 AM   #63
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You obviously have no idea what you are talking about with respect to military manufacturing and privatization of the manufacturing sector. Do your homework and read up on how this country operates by private suppliers producing military components and how it's done.

Are you some kind of communist? Of course there's profit. Last time I checked, we live in a capitalist society where competition and profit define any business venture.
I don't think you understand what I'm getting at, so maybe it isn't as obvious as you imagine. There is currently a national issue regarding making loans to auto manufacturers. This is a bold move that some would equate to socialism. My question was if socialist measures to shore up the auto industry also insure the survival of the chain of producers that make parts that are also vital to the defense department.

Also, the current statistic that 30% of the military service in the Iraq war are private makes me wonder about the diminishing of the US military as a purchaser. The power of the military as a huge purchaser allows a certain quality control and negotiation weight, not to mention the possibility that vital parts could more likely be offshore produced.

Oh, and yes. You figured it out. I'm some kind of communist. I'm just too lazy to probe the liberal media and determine just what kind.
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Old 11-19-2008, 07:58 AM   #64
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I don't think you understand what I'm getting at, so maybe it isn't as obvious as you imagine. There is currently a national issue regarding making loans to auto manufacturers. This is a bold move that some would equate to socialism. My question was if socialist measures to shore up the auto industry also insure the survival of the chain of producers that make parts that are also vital to the defense department.

Also, the current statistic that 30% of the military service in the Iraq war are private makes me wonder about the diminishing of the US military as a purchaser. The power of the military as a huge purchaser allows a certain quality control and negotiation weight, not to mention the possibility that vital parts could more likely be offshore produced.

Oh, and yes. You figured it out. I'm some kind of communist. I'm just too lazy to probe the liberal media and determine just what kind.
An uninformed communist at that.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:12 AM   #65
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So what are you saying? That there are no or negligible producers of parts and components that would be negatively effected if the big three went under? How about some facts? Or are you an uniformed fascist?
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:23 AM   #66
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socialism
Some times I think to my self maybe it's not such a bad idea...
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:32 AM   #67
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Some times I think to my self maybe it's not such a bad idea...

Levinoss, I want you to move to Cuba for a year. Come back and tell us what you think of socialism then. Live it for a year and I think you'll be singing a different tune.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:32 AM   #68
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So what are you saying? That there are no or negligible producers of parts and components that would be negatively effected if the big three went under? How about some facts? Or are you an uniformed fascist?
Why don't you do your homework and understand how the military suppliers operate in this country before you spout a bunch of nonsensical pinko rhetoric about not trusting military component manufacturing to private companies.? It just might help add some credibility to your discussion.

It might even help to do some homework on the history of the automanufacturers and their role in defense support.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:35 AM   #69
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Well, we have had social programs for a long time. Most Western countries have a degree of socialism. For the USA, we are clearly entering a new era of huge corporate socialism, financed by China. I suspect much of the "bailout" discussion revolve around appeasing China and reassuring them we will remain solvent and if we need the next 20 generations to pay off the debt we will as long as we can borrow a little more.

Healthcare is such a freakin' mess though. If you have ever lived through a friend or parent dying while having to battle hundreds of miscategorized bills and constant threats of credit action related to modern billing practices designed to wear down the sick and steal their last pennies you understand the problem. All we need are more unemployed going into emergency rooms for service.

I really felt big C Communism was all but done. Funny that America has helped bring it back from the brink by so fervently using as much gas as possible, thus helping raise the gas prices and bring the Russians back to the playing field. They are not doing so well at the moment though, I notice.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:41 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by MOz View Post
Why don't you do your homework and understand how the military suppliers operate in this country before you spout a bunch of nonsensical pinko rhetoric about not trusting military component manufacturing to non-private companies.? It just might help add some credibility to your discussion.

It might even help to do some homework on the history of the automanufacturers and their role in defense support.
Clear up that double negative and we might have a clue as to what you are trying to say? I believe I asked a question about the supply chain. That is all. Just looking for information. You don't need to manufacture an enemy, there are real ones to fight.

BTW, I think you are making my point for me. One might assume we will need parts for all these Hummers? No? So we merrily stroll down the bailout road to transfer all the legacy pensions of GM to the taxpayers, and as a side benefit the parts manufacturers we need to keep our military running stay in business?

I'm looking for first hand, anecdotal information from the source. Anything in your hand?
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:46 AM   #71
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Levinoss, I want you to move to Cuba for a year. Come back and tell us what you think of socialism then. Live it for a year and I think you'll be singing a different tune.
But I don't want to be a socialist in cuba! I wana be a socialist in America!
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:50 AM   #72
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I edited the post (if you were paying attention)

BTW: Why don't you answer my question? Perhaps you can add some value here with your understanding of how things work with military suppliers. Otherwise, you are making unfounded rhetorical arguments.

Where is youe foundation for your argument? I'd like to see some answers.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:53 AM   #73
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So how many here have grandparents that refuse Social Security and Medicare? I pay into these systems at about twice the rate of the average citizen. I guess we are all socialists in America.

BTW, here is a snapshot. No doubt one of thousands upon thousands that make up the truth about defense contracting.

Commercial Contract for Noncompetitive Spare Parts With Hamilton Sundstrand Corporation - Summary

Wonder what would happen to the custom defense bits if the commercial business fell apart. Can someone PLEASE explain how this concept is communist? Talk about paranoid. JebusHChrist.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:01 AM   #74
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Why don't you answer my question?
IDK, maybe because I asked first, and I'm not in the military, and I'm interested in hearing some raw opinions from the feet-on-the-ground rather than listening to the liberal media owned by conservative Rupert Murdoch.

Do have an opinion based on information about national security, defense contracting, and the auto industry? Seems to me it is a pretty vast subject based on the percent of budget going into the military industrial complex. If I were running a military operation the LAST thing I would want to be publicized accurately would be details about strategic weaknesses in the supply chain. In fact, I recall be asked to leave congressional hearing on more than one occasion when sensitive contracting issues were being discussed.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:04 AM   #75
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Levinoss, I want you to move to Cuba for a year. Come back and tell us what you think of socialism then. Live it for a year and I think you'll be singing a different tune.
Wouldn't Denmark be a more reasonable example?

BBC NEWS | Health | Denmark 'happiest place on earth'
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:09 AM   #76
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Wouldn't Denmark be a more reasonable example?

BBC NEWS | Health | Denmark 'happiest place on earth'
Yea, Cuba is pretty nasty. >.<
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:12 AM   #77
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IDK, maybe because I asked first, and I'm not in the military, and I'm interested in hearing some raw opinions from the feet-on-the-ground rather than listening to the liberal media owned by conservative Rupert Murdoch.

Do have an opinion based on information about national security, defense contracting, and the auto industry? Seems to me it is a pretty vast subject based on the percent of budget going into the military industrial complex. If I were running a military operation the LAST thing I would want to be publicized accurately would be details about strategic weaknesses in the supply chain. In fact, I recall be asked to leave congressional hearing on more than one occasion when sensitive contracting issues were being discussed.
Since you know how it all works, why don't you try to explan it for us?
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:22 AM   #78
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Since you know how it all works, why don't you try to explan it for us?
Dude. I DON'T know how it all works. That is the point of asking a question. Gather opinions, compare, contrast, apply critical thinking, reconsider.

Surely you have more to offer than calling me a communist for trying to be informed and engaged as a citizen in issues that effect people who have volunteered to die to protect my freedoms.
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:04 AM   #79
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I don't see much of a "debate" going on here.

I just don't understand why anyone wastes their time rolling around in the mud w/ya (especially since you ain't jeep'n)!
I guess that picture in my avatar isn't a jeep?
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:10 AM   #80
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You obviously have no idea what you are talking about with respect to military manufacturing and privatization of the manufacturing sector. Do your homework and read up on how this country operates by private suppliers producing military components and how it's done.

Are you some kind of communist? Of course there's profit. Last time I checked, we live in a capitalist society where competition and profit define any business venture.
We live in a partially capitalist society...if it were truly capitalist there would be no restrictions on mergers and acquisitions of large companies. If it were truly capitalistic small business would be a very small part, if none at all, of the economy...all the big boys would rule(i.e. Walmart, Target, Shell). They would crush all the small businesses.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:07 AM   #81
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Yea, Cuba is pretty nasty. >.<
But they have...

Mojitos!!
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:09 AM   #82
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We live in a partially capitalist society...if it were truly capitalist there would be no restrictions on mergers and acquisitions of large companies. If it were truly capitalistic small business would be a very small part, if none at all, of the economy...all the big boys would rule(i.e. Walmart, Target, Shell). They would crush all the small businesses.
I disagree with that statement, a truly capitalisitc society would not cause harm to small bussiness....
A truly capitalistic society probably wouldn't have needed a $700 billion dollar bail out.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:10 AM   #83
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I am not a mixed drink person but those do look so good. The Cuban music is pretty fantastic as well.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:12 AM   #84
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OK, but that wasn't what I had hijacked the thread about.

It isn't about your freedom after your service, it is about whether a privately held company should be given taxpayer money to do a job the military has traditionally done. It seems to me to be an odd precedent and a slippery slope that could cause problems in the future and weaken the military.

Thanks for your response though, clearly you couldn't be more pro privatized military. That is a surprise to me.

The American Voice 2004 - Issues and Allegations - Military Privatization
I am pro military, I am all for cutting other social programs and handouts to increase defense funding, and veterans benefits, as well as active soldiers pay.
Our military should be well equipped, well funded, and an elite fighting force, that being said, I do not see the problem with using taxpayer money to pay a private company to do a job, that lets face it, they can probably do more effeciently, less expensively, than the military, not to mention it doesn't give beurocrats the oppurtunity to play general. just my opinion though.

On another note, its about time our govt start being run like a succesful business rather than a charity organization, and hey, aren't you guys all about change anyway?
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:14 AM   #85
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I am not a mixed drink person but those do look so good. The Cuban music is pretty fantastic as well.
Plus they make some DAMN good coffee!!!!! But we digress........
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:16 AM   #86
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We live in a partially capitalist society...if it were truly capitalist there would be no restrictions on mergers and acquisitions of large companies. If it were truly capitalistic small business would be a very small part, if none at all, of the economy...all the big boys would rule(i.e. Walmart, Target, Shell). They would crush all the small businesses.
Where is it defined that capitalism has no regulation? There are no regulations in an anarchistic society, but I think it's a fair statement to say things would not operate in a desireable manner if that was the case.

After all, we empowered the very people (the government) to make those rules and gave them the authority to make those decisions on our behalf.. We also have the power to undo that process if the "majority" public get up and vote in a new policy....that is the democratic - capitalistic process.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:21 AM   #87
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Is it too early to start drinking?
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:24 AM   #88
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Is it too early to start drinking?
Not if it's a Mojito or a Cuban coffee!!
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:35 AM   #89
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Preserving the R&D and manufacturing chains possibly shouldn't be trusted to private companies?
So let's all round up all the parts suppliers and make them government owned and government controlled...that is a communist value if I ever heard one. To suggest so, is a communist ideal.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:35 AM   #90
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I am pro military, I am all for cutting other social programs and handouts to increase defense funding, and veterans benefits, as well as active soldiers pay.
Our military should be well equipped, well funded, and an elite fighting force, that being said, I do not see the problem with using taxpayer money to pay a private company to do a job, that lets face it, they can probably do more effeciently, less expensively, than the military, not to mention it doesn't give beurocrats the oppurtunity to play general. just my opinion though.

On another note, its about time our govt start being run like a succesful business rather than a charity organization, and hey, aren't you guys all about change anyway?
OK. I sense in your answer, however, that you wouldn't, for example, like to have the military eliminated and replaced with private contractors.

If this is the case, can you explain why?

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