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Old 12-28-2012, 12:34 PM   #31
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Caveat Emptor

They rely very heavily on your enthusiasm making you do stupid things and overlood re-flags that would make you run away if you were in your normal state. Thats salesmanship 101.

There is a lot of reading here....but if you take the time to read it and understand it...this 2-FREE-hours will save you tens of thousands of dollars in your lifespan.
READ THIS EVERYBODY!!!!
CarBuyingTips.com - complete step by step car buying guide


The idea of challenging their contract is nice. But that assumes they thay havent had their lawyers review and construct it VERY carefully to begin with. The it becomes a question of who has the best lawyer. and that becomes an issue of who has the deepest pockets. Dealerships usually win that tit-for-tat.

Best advice....read everything (nobody does). If you dont understand it, ask for clarification. If you feel like you are in control...walk away. If you feel pressure...RUN AWAY and dont look back. There is lots of competition and fundamentals of business and requisit profit margins are the same everywhere. No one dealership is going to give you so much better deal...that you gotta put up with their crap. Similarly, no dealership is deperate enough that they have to kiss your ass to make the sale. So go into the transaction with balanced, realistic expectations. And you will come out of it satisfied.

In the OP's situation...it sux. But education is expensive. At least he got something for his money. There are other lessons in life where you come away empty handed with more expense.

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Old 12-28-2012, 12:36 PM   #32
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I've known a few people at work that sold cars in their prior work. The stories some of them told me were horrible. There are some good dealers out there though. The trouble with buying a new vehicle is most people buy with their hearts instead of their heads and the dealers know that. Hearing these stories from former salesmen made me always do research, and know there is more than one dealer in the area. I told my dealer that I was going to another Jeep dealer 10 miles down the road before I made my decision, and he took another $500 off the deal and I bought. Wound up being $750 under invoice.

Always do your homework and go in with your head clear. Their job is to make as much money off the deal as they can. They have the sales manager pushing on them.

Feel so bad for the OP.....

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Old 12-28-2012, 12:38 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by The_Chief View Post
But you're paying for that... I don't wanna pay for something I don't want or need. I put a big chunk down on mine--no gap ins. needed.
yes, I just meant to make sure you aren't paying for it twice if its something that you want
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:45 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by wat3rdog View Post
I discovered that a credit score depends on the financial institutions guidelines.

Yes, lending guidelines are institutionally specific; Capital One has loans for just about any credit profile, while Wells Fargo usually won't touch a loan unless it is well into the 740+ profile and well aged. One can have an 810 score and still be refused by a lender because it does not meet their internal criteria.

The three major credit reporting agencies score their information differently and that is why there are differing scores. They also service national regions differently. If you are out West and use a California lender, they use Experian most of the time. If you are in the Southeast or a SE bank, they tend to use Equifax.

The credit score was invented by Fair, Isaac, and Company [FICO] years ago and is algorithm based on many variables which they refuse to explicitly disclose. It is scored differently for mortgages, auto loans, personal loans, etc. It is the standardized score for the lending industry and one can buy a compiled FICO score directly from them. Any other score may not mean anything.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:50 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Snowren24 View Post
A good insurance policy should have gap coverage on a new vehicle. I know state farm often advertises their new car replacement policy.
If this statement is true then there are no "good insurance policies" anymore.. Insurance pays "book value" on a total loss, regardless of what you owe.

GAP insurance was invented to protect you and the bank from the insurance company. Having this coverage through the insurance company makes absolutely zero sense.

Remember that GAP isn't even available for purchase if you put enough down to buy the loan with "equitable" values. Extended terms and super low payments are the deals that need GAP.

Also, regarding the interest rate: the dealer is allowed to "mark up" the rate they get for you from the bank, but only so much.. In our state (MO) the maximum mark up is around 2%.. So if they sold you the loan at 8.75 then they bought it for no less than 6.25% (depending upon your states laws)...

So telling the OP about your 4% rate isn't doing them any good. Just FYI

NOTE: ANY product that you buy can usually be cancelled at a pro- rated rate, so get out the contracts that you bought and call the company to cancel those contracts, they will send the refunds to your bank for you.

Also, I would report that F&I manager to the BBB for deceptive lending practices, that can earn the dealer ALLOT of heat, which it sounds like they deserve.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:53 PM   #36
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1st, Lots of banks out there right now that will re-finance the loan, check into it. My wifes intrest went from 6.9% to 3% on a 2 yr old car, no money down, lower payments and shorter term. They will jump at the chance to write paper on a '13

2nd, The stolen vehical insurance kinda sounds like gap insurance, not a bad thing but should be able to be canceled. Also if it only covers $5000 it should be cheap.

3rd, Car dealers / salesmen can smell a home run laydown from a mile away. Always read the docs before you sign! ask questions! and formost remember at any point you can get up and walk out if you havent singned and are not comfortable.

4th, Some high pressure dealers will try to impress upon you that your life will end if you dont give into their tactics. They are the ones that lose out if you walk so you have the power and the advantage when dealing with them. You may also want to "interview the dealers" to determine who you will buy from. Ask to meet the managers and dealer principal / owner and take a tour of the service dept. If they dont have time to talk to you, you dont want to spend money with them.
Good luck
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:57 PM   #37
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OP, that really does stink. Unfortunately, I suspect you have paperwork sitting around with your signature (perhaps multiple times) and the warranties and interest rate clearly stated above. And most of those contracts will have boilerplate to the effect of "I am not relying on oral promises outside the four corners of this written document. So by all means contact a local attorney, but I doubt you have much of a leg to stand on.

That does not mean that you didn't get screwed... I think the more appropriate means of recourse will be through the BBB, strongly worded letters, or your state's Attorney General's consumer affairs office.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:58 PM   #38
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The OP's predicament can be prevented by some easy steps.

1. Go online and research what you want to buy. See what is on the lot that may meet your needs.
2. Go to FICO and get your credit score, so you aren't surprised by stuff that is not supposed to be there.
3. Get your financing independently and before you walk onto a lot. Many credit unions are happy to do this and this is the only way I finance a vehicle.
4. Check with your insurance agent and see what the premiums are. This is most important when you are young or when you buy something like a high performance vehicle, a motorcycle, or something similar - some cars, trucks, SUVs, are very expensive to insure due to thefts or collision rates.
5. Walk onto several dealerships and look around. Never buy on the first trip, but talk to the sales people and get a first impression. After rating them in person and checking their reputations online, then begin the negotiations.
6. Tell them up front that you are not going to finance with them and never fill out a credit application. Demand their best price.
7. If the deal is good and they have what you want or are willing to order for you, then pull the trigger. Read what you are signing and NEVER buy packages, programs, or insurance from the F&I manager.

All this can be done over a couple of days and is worth the time and effort. Much of it can be done online whenever you want.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:59 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Collecife View Post
My credit score is like 650. I think even before doubling it was almost a scam. 8.75% now I'm so upset. Now I understand why the dealership got the worst rating.
Ive got a 630 and got 6.7%
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:13 PM   #40
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Thanks for all the wonderful advice. I will talk to the scam manager tomorrow to seek peaceful resolution. Depending on how he reacts I will take this matter to BBB or an attorney. I did pretty good job on the car price but then they fxxked me afterwards. Do not make the mistake I made!
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:18 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Collecife
Thanks for all the wonderful advice. I will talk to the scam manager tomorrow to seek peaceful resolution. Depending on how he reacts I will take this matter to BBB or an attorney. I did pretty good job on the car price but then they fxxked me afterwards. Do not make the mistake I made!
I do think back to your original post -- glad you love the jeep. A tough lesson learned, but that's life. You'll be on the forums in a few years helping some other dude out.

God bless.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:19 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Collecife View Post
650 comes from Experian. The finance guy told me mine is like 630 "the bank internally" and gave me 8.75% APR. I didn't know it was so high APR at the time. And then he deceitfully got me the theft protection. I am so upset now. What would you do if you were me?
Unfortunately, 630 is not considered a good score and probably, from the dealer and bank's point of view, deserving of the high finance rate. I do agree though, that if it is in any way tied to whether or not you purchase any type of insurance, you got screwed. Fight it from that angle. I don't think there is anything you can do about the rate if it was determined solely from your credit score.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:23 PM   #43
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609 and I have 4.3 percent interest for 60 months
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:26 PM   #44
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Thanks for all the wonderful advice. I will talk to the scam manager tomorrow to seek peaceful resolution. Depending on how he reacts I will take this matter to BBB or an attorney. I did pretty good job on the car price but then they fxxked me afterwards. Do not make the mistake I made!

A couple of important points.

Don't bother to sit down with the managers and try to have a "peaceful resolution". Why? They are professionals at what they are doing and you are not. They have strategies for dealing with remorseful buyers and you have no bargaining power now. Remember, they have your money in their pockets and now it is their money - they are not inclined to surrender it.

Unless that dealership is an active member of the Better Business Bureau, going to them and filing a complaint is meaningless. The BBB is a group of businesses and civic organizations that anyone can pay dues into to join and get a rating. They have no regulatory an no enforcement powers and cannot do anything other than attempt to intervene with a member business over a dispute with a consumer. If the offending business refuses to do anything, then the matter is closed and the business gets an internal black mark.

There are a small number of BBB member businesses with tons of negative ratings and as long as they continue to pay dues into the BBB, that is effectively the end of the process and they still can put the BBB sticker on their door and use it in advertising.

See an attorney now and find out what options and recourse you may have. Not doing so is potentially costing you thousands of dollars if you screw it up on your own.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:28 PM   #45
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What is the name and location of this dealer so we can avoid the same problem.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:47 PM   #46
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I never know why a business would want to be a BBB member... The sticker for the window has little value IMO. Basically it gives the public an opportunity to vent, and there is little good from that. Look how many neg reviews are on Google vs. (sometimes paid) good reviews.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:49 PM   #47
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Google/Yelp/Angieslist reviews and BBB reviews are not connected.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:53 PM   #48
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Worst case scenario is that you shop around for another bank or lender and refinance your jeep.

Secondly the extended warranty should be able to be prorated so that you could potentially get a return for the remainder of the warranty. If you are ever getting a warranty make sure its a Chrysler warranty. I am not familiar with the warranty you mention.

Thirdly the GAP insurance is prorated as well. You will have to work with the dealer you originally purchased the vehicle from and they MUST give you a return on the gap insurance not used, its the law.

The reason they wanted to cram the warranty on you was that they saw how much you were approved for. Always nail down a price before allowing them to run your credit as well. If the jeep was 30K and they saw you were approved for 40 lets say they are going to fill the 10k gap as much as possible by asking you what you what your payment to be. If you give them a dollar (you never should) amount they will jack interest rates up because if you were approved for 6% and they can squeeze 2% out of you it goes directly in their pocket. Gap insurance on a 30K vehicle costs the dealer about 100 bucks. I normally tell them I will give them 25 bucks above cost to file it or I walk. Make the F&I guy show you the cost. If they wont show you then walk.

You have learned the hard way that a dealer can present you with completely crazy stuff and as long as you sign it its legal.

Like I said I doubt they will work with you on this so I would find another bank and get everything back that you can.

My family owned a dealer for years and we prided ourselves on being honest and upfront on these costs and being fair. What did it get us? Customers that loved us but we could pay the bill and closed when the big dealers moved in and made people feel good about getting screwed.
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Old 12-28-2012, 02:07 PM   #49
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Ok, so is it even possible to change the bank/lender at this point? I think 8.75% is too high and the manager did tricks on it. Can they refuse to change the bank?
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Old 12-28-2012, 02:07 PM   #50
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Im not trying to be an ass, honestly. I hate the game dealers play and just bought a car yesterday, so my feet are still sore from the sparring session.

Fundamentally the argument comes down to: I didnt know what I was agreeing to, because I didnt read the paperwork as I signed it. The lawyer will ask you if youve seen the "Southpark Episode" about the Human Cent-i-pad.

They will call the dealership just to try to work things out. The dealership will say, "we explained it before he signed it." Customer will swear, "No they didnt explain it. They just handed me all the papers and told me to sign everywhere there was an X".

The dealership will then say: "Would you like a copy of the video from that day?"
Cuz I have yet to be in a finance office that wasn't on camera.

The, while you sit there gawking at the video of them doing what you said they didnt do...explain the contract(s)....they will quietly ask...You had 5 days to bring the vehicle back and void the contract with no penalty....why did you wait 4 months?"

Again, not trying to be an ass. Just giving you a glimpse into the future that might save you some trouble...embarrassment...and additional expense.

If you can get your money back....awesome. If you cant...you just doubled-down.
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Old 12-28-2012, 02:19 PM   #51
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The only get out of jail pass you are going to get is if you are under the age of 18.

Can you go elsewhere? Absolutely, its just like trading a vehicle, check out a bank, get the best rate you can and they will payoff the existing loan. The original dealer does not even have to know or be involved. The only thing they need to be involved in is the pro rating of the warranty and GAP insurance. I would collect the gap and warranty cash to put against the original loan amount to make your payoff price more attractive. Remember that interest rates are the ability for a lender to make money over the term. When you walk in the door asking for a loan and have a decent credit rating you are really saying "I am not a shady Character and I want the lender to make money off me". Your dealer just took it too far.

Dont even tell them you are going to refinance it. Its none of their business.

They didn't do you any favors when they had the chance and they certainly aren't going to give you a better rate.

While we are talking scores and rates I just got a 3.4 rate for 60 with a credit score around the 800 mark for reference.
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Old 12-28-2012, 02:27 PM   #52
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I Googled the insurance companies name (Virginia Surety Company) and it looks like what the OP may have purchased was identity theft insurance and not vehicle theft insurance.
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Old 12-28-2012, 02:41 PM   #53
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Re-read Vrooom's posts. I think he is spot on. You signed the contracts. You might contact the State's Attorney General and ask them if they'll help you in this instance. In some states they will bring a burdensome hell on shady business practices.

As for the loan, see if your insurance company or bank will give you 4%. There may be a prepayment penalty on the loan you took out.

Going forward, everyone should get in writing the VIN, MSRP, your negotiated price, sales tax, tag, and documentation/dealer fees.

Take it home and ask somebody with financial savvy to review it.

Have external financing in place ahead of serious shopping. If the dealer can beat it without strings, fine.
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Old 12-28-2012, 02:46 PM   #54
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Ugh, the WORST part about buying at a dealership is the hard sell they put on you for the extended warranty and whatever else they can sell you after the fact. It's where they make a lot of their profit - most of that money goes into their pockets, you know. I have never purchased an extended warranty and they tried hard to sell them to me for my last 2 new vehicles and my current used Jeep. I had to say no at least 10 times for each, 10 different ways, because they just don't want to take no for an answer. In one case they tried to include it even after I'd said I didn't want it. They tried to sneak it in by finding a lender with a lower interest rate so that the payment ended up the same - they were hoping I wouldn't notice, I guess. So yes, they will lie. Just stand your ground and threaten legal action.
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Old 12-28-2012, 02:55 PM   #55
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I worked in car sales for 8 years and I have never heard of secondary theft coverage. The warranty and usually all other added insurances can be cancelled at anytime after purchase. They typically will not change your payment and they do influence your interest rate when purchasing. They typically make your rate higher due to the over book value that you are financing. Also, he probably got you for 2 points on interest also. I would tell them to cancel both insurances and go to the closest credit union that you can be a member of and see about refinancing. Finance managers use this tactic to close you down easier. They get paid commission on all of the warranties, insurances, and even on part of the interest rate. They get to keep the commission if they can prevent you from canceling these items within 90 days of purchasing. If the dealership won't help, call the companies that provides the coverages and tell them.
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Old 12-28-2012, 03:04 PM   #56
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I work for a dealership you can call them and tell them you want to cancel the insurance as well as the warranty. They won't return the funds but will remove them from the balance owed. I have herd of some Special Finance Officers taking advantage but this is total $hit! I would call them and start the ball rolling in getting this un wanted coverage removed.
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Old 12-28-2012, 03:14 PM   #57
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Save your money and simply buy your vehicles for cash and you'll see that interest rates, credit scores and many other things have little meaning in your life.
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Old 12-28-2012, 03:22 PM   #58
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If i were you i would go to every local bank and see about refinancing. I always go and secure financing before buying anything. I tell them how much i plan on spending and they can give a close estimate on your note. My local bank offered 4% credit union 2.5% went to check on cost of insurance and ended up financing through state farm for 2%. Point is go out and shop don't rely on the dealership to do whats best for you.
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Old 12-28-2012, 03:56 PM   #59
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Its a long shot...in the dark...with a stiff cross-wind...at a narrow moving target....

But as a "Hail Mary" you might give a ring to your states Insurance Regulatory Board/commission/agency/gang.

There is the slimmest chance that the dealership might be selling insurance...without a license to do so...and the state gets kinda upity if they arent getting their slice of the pie.

But I doubt this will be fruitful. I believe the OP said it was a 2013...which means first-line dealership. They dont poop unless they have tried-and-true policies covering their.....

A buyer buys once every 5 yrs on avg. A first-line dealership sells about 8 times a day (more if they are successful) Odds on winning this dog fight?

Seperate topic....Why ANYONE is still doing business with banks baffles me. Credit Unions are the way to go. Do your research. Make informed decisions. Inevitably you will make mistakes...learn from them. Dont repeat them. Tell others about your mistakes. Maybe they will listen and learn from your mistakes...most folks have to do it themselves to get any smarter from it. Thats where my advice comes from...been there...done that....went back for seconds. Eventually learned.

See Post #31.
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Old 12-28-2012, 04:04 PM   #60
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Save your money and simply buy your vehicles for cash and you'll see that interest rates, credit scores and many other things have little meaning in your life.
It's simply not realistic for most people to purchase a vehicle with cash.

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