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Old 10-24-2012, 12:58 PM   #31
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If he's done all that for cancer and cancer patients... I say dope away sir, dope away!
Last year alone, Livestrong provided over $29,000,000 to cancer education, programs, policy, grants, advocacy, and government relations. That's not a typo--over $29 million just last year. That's 82% of every dollar the charity raised, with the remaining 18% going to the fundraising itself (13%) and administration (5%). Source here.

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Old 10-27-2012, 04:04 PM   #32
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Last year alone, Livestrong provided over $29,000,000 to cancer education, programs, policy, grants, advocacy, and government relations. That's not a typo--over $29 million just last year. That's 82% of every dollar the charity raised, with the remaining 18% going to the fundraising itself (13%) and administration (5%). Source here.
Livestrong's dedication of funds to the cause it supports, as opposed to organizational largesse, puts countless other foundations to shame. Good on ya to everyone at Livestrong, and please continue to set an example for other organizations.

What Livestrong and Lance Armstrong did for cancer patients and survivors over the years has been truly remarkable. If - and I have to admit is seems likely now - Lance doped along with almost every other professional rider over the last few decades, I am disappointed, if not surprised. I haven't competed but I have ridden with people who rode competitively, in a number of countries, and they all said they or their professional friends had to dope at a certain level in order to compete.

Going forward though, it would be nice to see what the USADA, and individuals who singled Armstrong out while cutting deals with proven cheaters (peopled who failed their drug tests) are able to do for cancer research and cancer survivors.

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Old 10-27-2012, 04:33 PM   #33
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Livestrong's dedication of funds to the cause it supports, as opposed to organizational largesse, puts countless other foundations to shame. Good on ya to everyone at Livestrong, and please continue to set an example for other organizations.

What Livestrong and Lance Armstrong did for cancer patients and survivors over the years has been truly remarkable. If - and I have to admit is seems likely now - Lance doped along with almost every other professional rider over the last few decades, I am disappointed, if not surprised. I haven't competed but I have ridden with people who rode competitively, in a number of countries, and they all said they or their professional friends had to dope at a certain level in order to compete.

Going forward though, it would be nice to see what the USADA, and individuals who singled Armstrong out while cutting deals with proven cheaters (peopled who failed their drug tests) are able to do for cancer research and cancer survivors.
Yep, but keep in mind--major news outlets only want you to refer to Armstrong in the future as a "disgraced cyclist"!!

A side point that's annoyed me about this whole fiasco by the way is also that we've now lost all of Armstrong's future performances as an amateur, which would've been great fun.

For example, he qualified for and was going to race in this year's Kona Ironman Triathlon. He's 41 years old, and no doubt would not have won, but it would've been great to see him put down an outstanding age-grouper time and just generally watch him perform. (It was going to be covered on TV.) Same with the NY City marathon and the Boston marathon.

But nope. He's now banned for life from all of those events.
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Old 10-27-2012, 05:13 PM   #34
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He's a cheater and a disgrace to all professional athletes acting like some sort of hero while he was shooting up drugs he is a loser and always will be in my book. He's one of those people who put on an act in public and behind close doors only cares about himself.
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Old 10-27-2012, 07:08 PM   #35
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He's a cheater and a disgrace to all professional athletes acting like some sort of hero while he was shooting up drugs he is a loser and always will be in my book. He's one of those people who put on an act in public and behind close doors only cares about himself.
^^^^^^^
Cheaters are a disgrace. Would you favor a violent bankrobber that built little league parks so much as a doping "inspiration" and massive funder of cancer research, with his some 250 million $ wealth amassed from CHEATING.....

Shame on all "athletes" our youth find motivating that won't expose the nature of the industry do to the pursuit of wealth.

And amateur? Even a bigger joke.
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Old 10-27-2012, 08:22 PM   #36
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He's a cheater and a disgrace to all professional athletes acting like some sort of hero while he was shooting up drugs he is a loser and always will be in my book. He's one of those people who put on an act in public and behind close doors only cares about himself.
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^^^^^^^
Cheaters are a disgrace. Would you favor a violent bankrobber that built little league parks so much as a doping "inspiration" and massive funder of cancer research, with his some 250 million $ wealth amassed from CHEATING.....

Shame on all "athletes" our youth find motivating that won't expose the nature of the industry do to the pursuit of wealth.

And amateur? Even a bigger joke.
I knew somebody would come along with this view eventually.

If we assume everything that's been published by the USADA is true, then the inescapable conclusion is that Armstrong along with every other significant cyclist (and the vast majority of insignificant cyclists) of that era doped.

Indeed, as noted above, at least 20 of the 21 podium finishers from Armstrong's Tours de France have been credibly linked to doping.

That's breaking the rules, but when the scale becomes that large, it's no longer "cheating." Cheating implies an unfair advantage, and if everyone was doing it, that's not what Armstrong had. This wasn't cheating--it was participating in an entire rule breaking culture.

This brings up the moral dilemmas I mentioned earlier, which I assume you fellas have answers to that you plan to share. I say this is principally a failing of the sport's regulatory bodies. A massive, massive failure. What should an athlete coming to pro cycling in 2000 have done? Cycle clean? He'd lose--all of the time. Come to the media or authorities? Some did, but they were shunned and never had any impact. Quit? Good in principle I guess, but it accomplishes nothing besides making you NOT a pro athlete.

The choice was dope and compete, or don't and go away. That's it.

That's the problem when PEDs are allowed to spread unabated. Without any check on their spread, they became a "cost of doing business" as an elite cyclist. Using them wasn't cheating--it was leveling the playing field to compete at all.

My mind could be changed of course. Perhaps Armstrong's doping was "extra special." Maybe he had more doping and better doping than anybody else. If that's the case, then I agree it was unfair. But I don't believe that for a second. All of these teams had sophisticated and expensive doping protocols in place. Cycling may be a niche sport here, but it's huge in Europe. Tens and tens of millions were at stake.

For what it's worth, I haven't heard any cyclist of the era claim that they could've beaten Armstrong had he not been doping. Think about that for a minute. Not only does it say a lot about who else was doping, it also says a lot about just how good Armstrong was. Everybody was doping like crazy, but nobody could beat him.

He's one of the best athletes of probably the last hundred years.

Finally, I note that the robber/little league comment is ridiculous. Armstrong never robbed any banks or committed any violent crime. He participated in a rule breaking culture along with substantially all of the other participants. That's not the same thing. And he didn't coach little leaguers--he spearheaded an epic cancer charity that has set the bar world wide. Again, not the same thing.

I'm fine with him losing his titles. (Note they're not reallocating those titles either--because everybody else was doping too.) I'm just not keen on him being "disgraced." He broke the rules, but he's still the best there's ever been. And I'm not keen in this being "about him"--it's about cycling, and the deeply entrenched, endemic problems it has. Armstrong was a symptom, not a cause. It's too bad he wasn't just starting out now.
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:01 PM   #37
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Several years ago when my mother beat brain cancer the first time around she became active with the Live Strong organization. She attended events, participated in fund raising and on more than one occasion met Lance Armstrong. Ultimately, cancer took her from us... But my family remained involved with Live Strong. I had hundreds of the yellow bracelets, wore one non stop for years (my two sons wore them also non stop) and we gave them to anyone who asked about them.

When the USADA report came out and I read it I was so incredibly disappointed that I was speechless. I had defended him, I had fallen for everything he had said every time he was asked about doping.

I personally feel cheated. I feel that he used lies, deceit and his ill-gotten awards to fund not only his organization but his lifestyle. SURE, the organization did great things. But there are ALOT of organizations doing equally good work for cancer patients and their families.

My family has removed all our bracelets, and will never again support him or his organization. We are VERY GLAD that this happened after our mother passed, she would have been not only disappointed but heartbroken...
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:06 PM   #38
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I personally feel cheated. I feel that he used lies, deceit and his ill-gotten awards to fund not only his organization but his lifestyle.
But that's the point--was it "ill-gotten"?

If everybody he competed with was doing the same thing, doesn't that matter in some way? I think so, and in more ways than one.

I lost my dad to cancer too, btw. It's a terrible, terrible thing.
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:08 PM   #39
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i feel as that even though he was caught drugging theres no way hes just the only one. Yes he is the most world known biker but there is plenty of other racers who are doing the same thing he did right now and truthfully he wouldnt have been on this high rankes spot if he couldnt compete to everyone else who could or couldnt have been using drugs.
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:10 PM   #40
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The moral choice of joining everyone else doing it or saying no? Are you kidding? And that is what is WRONG with America.

Cheating is violation of a standard set of rules. Semantics cannot escape that. He let children look up to him as inspiration while knowingly lying to those same children. That is not excusable.

"Pursuit of Wealth is the root of all evil"
Some carpenter, about 2k years ago

And my heart goes out to any who have lost. My family has seen heartache at the hands of cancer as well.
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:22 PM   #41
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As far as my analogy, breaking an accepted rule of society, or law, for the benefit of those in need is the same whether it be Robin Hood, Lance Armstrong, or Bonnie & Clyde. Same thing. Different means, but the same thing.
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:01 PM   #42
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But that's the point--was it "ill-gotten"?

If everybody he competed with was doing the same thing, doesn't that matter in some way? I think so, and in more ways than one.

I lost my dad to cancer too, btw. It's a terrible, terrible thing.
YES, it is ill-gotten. Just because everyone else is doing something wrong does not make it right for him. If he KNEW everyone else was doing it, he should have done something about it. He would have earned more respect and admiration for that, then becoming one of the bad guys. His life as he knows it is over...
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:24 AM   #43
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And that's what he deserves
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:38 AM   #44
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The end DOES NOT justify the means.

The means are where your morality are revealed. Armstrong has the moral compass of a field mouse.
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:57 AM   #45
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He's a cheater and a disgrace to all professional athletes acting like some sort of hero while he was shooting up drugs he is a loser and always will be in my book. He's one of those people who put on an act in public and behind close doors only cares about himself.
He's a disgrace to you, don't generalize.

For what he's done for cancer and cancer patients, he's still a hero in my book.

And may you never need the services or funds from his organization, but if you do, please refrain from sticking your hand out for help. Wouldn't want you to be tainted by such a disgrace.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:15 AM   #46
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He's a disgrace to you, don't generalize.

For what he's done for cancer and cancer patients, he's still a hero in my book.

And may you never need the services or funds from his organization, but if you do, please refrain from sticking your hand out for help. Wouldn't want you to be tainted by such a disgrace.
He is a disgrace because he is guilty of tax evasion. He is a disgrace because he is guilty of fraud. He is a disgrace because he practiced medicine without a license and was a controlled substance distributor. Real people, like me and you, do jail time for such offenses. He may be a great biker, but he is still a phoney, lying, criminal. He may have given to those in need, so did some of histories most oppressive people. I say again, the end does not justify the means. That attitude is why we torture other people.

The services and funds from livestrong are primarily for awareness of cancer and for survivor programs, not research of or actual funding for a cure. It is perpetual money, much like Komen is. Very very few orginazations actually help to irradicate anything, cause the medicine is a good business to be in...
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:50 AM   #47
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:14 AM   #48
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I'm at my son's 3-year-old birthday party today, but I've got some questions for you hard liners. Could get interesting.

For now, I note just that I never said what Armstrong allegedly did in terms of doping was GOOD, just that the mainstream reaction is, I think, overblown and narrow minded.

We'll see.
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:42 AM   #49
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I'm at my son's 3-year-old birthday party today, but I've got some questions for you hard liners. Could get interesting.

For now, I note just that I never said what Armstrong allegedly did in terms of doping was GOOD, just that the mainstream reaction is, I think, overblown and narrow minded.

We'll see.
I can appreciate what you are saying, as I understand it. That Armstrong has become the whoopin boy for an industry of deceit existing long before his rise to power, and he merely did what was accepted practice by all to facilitate doing good both in the sport and socially, which he did admirably. Now he is being ostracized for life while his fellow teammates, who did just as "wrong", get 6 mo probation. That is not fair, and you are right about that. Forget the dozens if not hundreds of international riders that won't even be brought to light, let alone punished...

The common folk do see this issue in a scewed light; they cannot flip the coin and look at the other side. I hope to say I do. I do, however, have problems with his reassurance to Coke that he was clean prior to their contract offer (Fraud), his distribution of banned substances to teammates (practicing w/o a license/distribution of controlled substance, depending on the drug) and paying the team doctor over 1 million $ in unreported compensation (tax evasion). Those are very serious crimes not relavent to the above conversation. If it were widespread and accepted, why did he need to be so intregral of a part? Taking money under false pretense to pay doctors without taxes for illegal drugs to hand out, thats pretty crazy, eh? Not in the "spirit" of it all, as you can appreciate, right?
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Old 10-28-2012, 02:49 PM   #50
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... If he KNEW everyone else was doing it, he should have done something about it. He would have earned more respect and admiration for that...
Like the respect and admiration that Jose Canseco gets for blowing the whistle on steroids in baseball?
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Old 10-28-2012, 04:20 PM   #51
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I don't do things so others will respect me. I do what I believe is right, despite the opinions of others.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:17 PM   #52
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Had he done the right thing and let others dope, it would be him receiving the trophies now instead of bring buried in shame. It's a matter of choice. He knew it was wrong, though to was popular, but chose to do it anyway.

The big loser in this could very be LiveStrong and that's a shame. Hopefully they can clear themselves from this and be as vital as ever.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:16 PM   #53
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Like the respect and admiration that Jose Canseco gets for blowing the whistle on steroids in baseball?
Difference is Jose Conseco was guilty of the same thing and only started talking when he came under investigation. I intended for my statement to mean that Lance Armstrong could have taken issue with OTHERS doping BEFORE he decided to do the same thing!
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:17 AM   #54
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Interesting to see some discussion both ways now on this thread . . . .

My week at work is shaping up to be terribly busy, but let me add a few thoughts as the OP here who still thinks that Armstrong is by and large getting a unfair shake on this. Even if I can't provide prompt replies, please understand I am following along.

I think many in this thread--and in general the mainstream media--are conflating quite a few issues as they pass their judgment. He used banned substances, ergo he's disgraced, he's a loser, he's a cheat, he's a failure, etc.

IMO, there's a bit more depth here. Like so many things in life, I think that dramatically oversimplifies reality, and exchanges convenience of thought for actual reflection.

Based on what I know of the USADA report, this is not the same situation as is presented by the "typical" PED user. And it is the "typical" PED user that fuels our convenient and simple worldview that, in general, somebody who uses PEDs is a cheat, a disgrace, etc.

The "typical" user is an active athlete who uses banned substances in secret, either alone or with a small group, to gain an advantage over everybody else. They are merely normal athletes who wanted to be exceptional, but couldn't do it without drugs. They wanted to compete with the other really good athletes, but couldn't do it naturally. They were a bench warmer who wanted to be the star.

I don't believe that's what happened here, and I think everyone who has read this thread understands that. When everybody dopes, nobody has an unfair advantage. Armstrong was exceptional and would've been a star if he and everybody else was clean, but nobody was.

So the question is: Is that relevant? Does it matter--in any way whatsoever--that the entire sport was soaked in a PED culture, and any rider who expected to merely be able to compete had to use? Is it relevant--in any way at all--that Armstrong would've still been exceptional if everybody was clean?

I think it does matter, but in specific ways. It doesn't (as I noted before), make Armstrong's use GOOD. Nor does it make it right. I don't think anybody's arguing that, and those that are "attacking" that position are arguing with a straw man.

So how does it matter? In a few ways I think.

Unlike the "typical" PED user, I still believe we can hold Armstrong out as an exceptional athlete. You will see people like him only a handful of times in your life, maybe just once. Among a field of equally "prepared" competitors, he won the Tour de France SEVEN consecutive times. Go read the Wiki article on the Tour. It's a TWO THOUSAND MILE race. Two thousand miles . . . or more. He won seven times. In a row. That's incredible.

Before that, he won the national sprint-course triathlon championship in 1989 and 1990. He was 18 and 19 years old, respectively. What were you doing in high school?

And then of course he came down with the testicular cancer that had metastasized to his brain and lungs. Got that? Nuts, brain, and lungs. Sounds important. That was 1996. He won his first (of seven consecutive) Tours just three years later. I watched my dad fight with cancer, and never once did I think pinnacle athletic achievement was going to be forthcoming if he had survived.

So to me, all of this amounts to a showing that not only was Armstrong a world class athlete, but also that he had the mental focus, drive, and determination to really make a mark. Not all great athletes have that--in fact, I'd say it's their biggest failing. Think of how many great athletes you've watched and lamented that they just didn't have the "mental game" to achieve their potential. Armstrong definitely did.

So there are lessons we can learn from this guy. He's not a "failure" or a "fraud," at least not in the sense that he was only made impressive by chemistry the way any of us could be. He was the real deal.

I also think the apparently ubiquitous nature of PED use in cycling at the time is being undervalued. He should have gone to the media or officials before he started using so as to clean up the sport? You can't be serious. Nobody can honestly think this would've gotten anywhere. Even the USADA acknowledges cycling had by this time imposed an "omerta" that still exists. He--as have some of the prior attempted whistleblowers--would've been ignored, marginalized, probably sued, and shunned for life.

His choice was dope and race, or don't dope and don't race. That's the deal. Don't kid yourself. There was no other choice but those two options. And that's a different deal (we hope) than is presented to the "typical" PED user we discussed above.

Would it have been more honorable to choose the other option? To decline to participate, try to whistleblow, fail, take his licks, and move on to being an accountant or something? Yes, of course. But it's not exactly astonishing that neither he--nor, apparently, damn near the entire sport--didn't do this.

And whomever thinks that Armstrong would be getting trophies now had he raced clean is crazy. Cycling's governing bodies have decided there will be no reallocation of awards during this period. Why? Because so many high level riders were doping, that there's just no way to do it. If he hadn't doped to level the field with the other guys, he would've been an unknown dude in 20th place. He wouldn't have gotten any trophies then, and he wouldn't have gotten any now.

And all of that starts to get to my big point from earlier: Where was cycling's governing bodies during all of this? How did they let this happen? It's tragic. So I don't view it principally as "Armstrong's disgrace," which seems to be the going line. If it's a "disgrace," it's a disgrace regarding an ENTIRE sport, not just one guy. That's a tragedy.

I agree that Armstrong--along with all of cycling--should be collectively viewed as liars who deceived the public. Titles should probably all be stripped and so on. But I disagree that it's ABOUT Armstrong, or that Armstrong's legacy of athletic achievement somehow no longer exists.

The takeaway from all this should be how cycling--as a whole--was so dirty during this time period that it was literally impossible to compete clean. This put every athlete involved to a terribly unfair choice. Almost all of them made the "wrong" choice, and now we have an entire era with a big asterisk next to it. That's much more "tragedy" than it is "disgrace," and it's certainly not all about Armstrong.
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:42 AM   #55
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Difference is Jose Conseco was guilty of the same thing and only started talking when he came under investigation. I intended for my statement to mean that Lance Armstrong could have taken issue with OTHERS doping BEFORE he decided to do the same thing!
He wasn't under investigation when he spoke out...he was retired from MLB actually...
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:54 AM   #56
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Ban professional cycling, make them all race for a little plastic trophy. I don't watch it 'cuz it's corrupt. Now I won't watch the NHL either.
Ban pro cycling???? bad idea. Thats like saying ban the NFL or the NBA, Or pro baseball. Its not the sport itself thats the problem, its the money involved. The more money involved the more people are going to cheat to get that money.
If he did cheat, then its sad because its effecting the whole sport. But we also need to look at what Lance has done for the good side. He has raised a ton of money for cancer as he is a survivor himself. He let the world watch him fight it to raise awareness, did he fake that too? He cheated death, I dont think his 7 wins were all from doping. How about all the wins that got him to the Tour De France in the first place. It doesnt make it ok, but I promise you many more have doped their blood than Lance, he is just getting hit for it because of his success. For Nike to pull his sponsship for his cancer awareness is stupid. They only recently pulled because of pressure, and that sucks.
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:59 AM   #57
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Shows how much you know about it, he didnt shoot up. He is accused of blood doping, its a whole different issue. And his "In the public eye only" stuff is crap. He didnt have to raise awareness to cancer and raise 29 million last year alone.
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He's a cheater and a disgrace to all professional athletes acting like some sort of hero while he was shooting up drugs he is a loser and always will be in my book. He's one of those people who put on an act in public and behind close doors only cares about himself.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:04 AM   #58
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Very well said, thank you.


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I knew somebody would come along with this view eventually.

If we assume everything that's been published by the USADA is true, then the inescapable conclusion is that Armstrong along with every other significant cyclist (and the vast majority of insignificant cyclists) of that era doped.

Indeed, as noted above, at least 20 of the 21 podium finishers from Armstrong's Tours de France have been credibly linked to doping.

That's breaking the rules, but when the scale becomes that large, it's no longer "cheating." Cheating implies an unfair advantage, and if everyone was doing it, that's not what Armstrong had. This wasn't cheating--it was participating in an entire rule breaking culture.

This brings up the moral dilemmas I mentioned earlier, which I assume you fellas have answers to that you plan to share. I say this is principally a failing of the sport's regulatory bodies. A massive, massive failure. What should an athlete coming to pro cycling in 2000 have done? Cycle clean? He'd lose--all of the time. Come to the media or authorities? Some did, but they were shunned and never had any impact. Quit? Good in principle I guess, but it accomplishes nothing besides making you NOT a pro athlete.

The choice was dope and compete, or don't and go away. That's it.

That's the problem when PEDs are allowed to spread unabated. Without any check on their spread, they became a "cost of doing business" as an elite cyclist. Using them wasn't cheating--it was leveling the playing field to compete at all.

My mind could be changed of course. Perhaps Armstrong's doping was "extra special." Maybe he had more doping and better doping than anybody else. If that's the case, then I agree it was unfair. But I don't believe that for a second. All of these teams had sophisticated and expensive doping protocols in place. Cycling may be a niche sport here, but it's huge in Europe. Tens and tens of millions were at stake.

For what it's worth, I haven't heard any cyclist of the era claim that they could've beaten Armstrong had he not been doping. Think about that for a minute. Not only does it say a lot about who else was doping, it also says a lot about just how good Armstrong was. Everybody was doping like crazy, but nobody could beat him.

He's one of the best athletes of probably the last hundred years.

Finally, I note that the robber/little league comment is ridiculous. Armstrong never robbed any banks or committed any violent crime. He participated in a rule breaking culture along with substantially all of the other participants. That's not the same thing. And he didn't coach little leaguers--he spearheaded an epic cancer charity that has set the bar world wide. Again, not the same thing.

I'm fine with him losing his titles. (Note they're not reallocating those titles either--because everybody else was doping too.) I'm just not keen on him being "disgraced." He broke the rules, but he's still the best there's ever been. And I'm not keen in this being "about him"--it's about cycling, and the deeply entrenched, endemic problems it has. Armstrong was a symptom, not a cause. It's too bad he wasn't just starting out now.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:15 AM   #59
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Indeed . . . ponder how the story would be different if this was about a sport or event that Americans actually cared about beyond one guy.

For example, let's say it was revealed that almost every summer Olympian over the past 20 years used banned substances, even though whatever report broke this story focused mainly on a few well known athletes. Phelps, Mayweather, Strug, etc.

Do you suppose all the media coverage would be about Kerri Strug's being "disgraced"? Perhaps some. There'd be some effort to interview her, some seeking of her comments, and so on. But that would really be the smaller point.

The REAL story would be "HOLY CRAP HOW DID THE INT'L OLYMPIC COMMITTEE MISS THIS????" We'd be wondering about ALL of the records, we'd be wondering about ALL of the new athletes, we'd be wondering what to make of the Olympics AS A WHOLE for the past 20 years, we'd be wondering how ALL of these athletes managed to do this. Etc.

But it certainly wouldn't all be about Kerri Strug and how she's a "disgrace." And that would make sense. Strug might've "done wrong" insofar as she broke the rules and didn't tell anybody, but the fact would remain that she was only doing what everyone else was doing, and she wouldn't have been able to compete fairly otherwise.

It wouldn't (and shouldn't) exonerate her, but it would at least put the story in it's proper perspective. That's what's being missed here.

(EDIT: To be clear, I have no evidence Strug, Phelps, Mayweather, etc. doped, nor am I accusing them of doing it. I'm just using them as a hypothetical example.)
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:19 AM   #60
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Hey, truth is truth, if he violated the Rules, he`s guilty. Period.
Put yourself on my shoes. I have a brother, actually my next younger brother with whom I spent many of my growing up years as buddies-buddies. We hunted together, we ride Skateboards together, we fished together, and later in life, still don`t know why, he got into drugs, and has been for most of his 46 year life. And there is a good story everyone knows about, the story of "El Capo", that bad guy who went around Countries building Parks, Schools and Churches, all with money from his Cartel. Does that makes him a good guy ??????????????????? You tell me in my face, because my brother, my Family, and me all paid for it with suffering !!!!!! And not because he uses drugs due to that guy, but because the bad guy made money from our sadness.
If Lance violated the Rules, he cheated others, what else is there to discuss. Even if one of my friends who is fighting Cancer now, even if I find out the money he donates helps sick people,well, thats great, and I commend him for that. But all he will accomplish with his wrongdoing is hurt the sports later, in the long run, the Sport will be hurt, and the good doing of it will become bad, because, people will loose all respect for the Sports, and that is really bad !!! I used to watch the Bike Races, I love them, but if nothing is done against cheaters, I will naturally stop watching them, just the same way I will not go to a Park or a Church financed by bad money.

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