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Old 10-30-2012, 11:21 AM   #61
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Its funny how no one is saying anything about his teamates who have admitted to doping and say Lqance made them. didnt they also have the choice not to dope???? Lets put him on a stake and burn him. Its so easy to make him the bad guy yet look the other way to everyone else who is cheating. Many of the people who say "crucify him" never even knew about cycling until Lance was blamed for the whole sport doping. Again Im not saying what he did was ok, but to blame him for the whole sport cheating is rediculous.

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Old 10-30-2012, 11:22 AM   #62
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I also think there's a bit of unfairness here on the part of cycling's governing bodies.

My expectation is that Armstrong probably made them more money than any other athlete in their history. Almost entirely on his own, he opened the lucrative North American market to what was previously a sport followed only in Europe.

Now that the powers-that-be in the cycling world have determined an epic--EPIC--level of doping was occuring right under their noses, they are deliberately turning the focus directly upon Armstrong.

I expect there are many, many persons within cycling's governing bodies that very much want the attention to stay on Armstong, and not on themselves and what they missed (or worse, encouraged) in the sport they were responsible for.

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Old 10-30-2012, 11:32 AM   #63
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Hey, truth is truth, if he violated the Rules, he`s guilty. Period.
. . . .

If Lance violated the Rules, he cheated others, what else is there to discuss.
I agree with all of that. That's really responding to the straw man argument I mentioned earlier--nobody is arguing that what Armstrong did was GOOD or RIGHT.

My point is that this isn't about Armstrong. This is about an ENTIRE SPORT. Armstrong apparently participated in what was functionally required to compete, and he (and EVERYONE else) was wrong for doing so. Titles need to go away and so on.

But that doesn't mean he should no longer be understood as one of the best (if not the best) cyclist ever. Rather, it means the era and the culture at the time sullied all that were involved. If we're ever confident that cycling in the future has become "clean," the question of how Armstrong would've done against the best of that future era should be debated.

I also think, as I noted above, that there's an aspect of distraction going on here on the part of cycling's governing bodies. They need to be held accountable as well.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:34 AM   #64
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fltopp you are right. I guess is just the Media making Lance "the only bad guy", because I`m sure anybody who cheated will be punished in the same way. I hope.
Lance is/was a Hero. Of course everybody wants to know, he is/was an inspiration
to many people, he sure is a great guy with a great heart, but the Titles, thats another story, he shall not keep the Titles, neither anyone who violated the rules. Hey, maybe the Directors will start taking the titles away one by one from the finishing spots on the races, and end up giving the titles to the guy who ended up last but did not violated the rules, but thats the only way is fair to everyone. Kind of like; " You did not use the stuff ? " No ? really ? can you prove it ? great !!.... here a Trophy for you !!!!!
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:38 AM   #65
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Hey, maybe the Directors will start taking the titles away one by one from the finishing spots on the races, and end up giving the titles to the guy who ended up last but did not violated the rules, but thats the only way is fair to everyone.
That's another important point. The determination has already been made that the doping was SO prevalent during this era that NOBODY is getting any titles. There's basically a presumption at this point that if you were racing during that time, you were doping. So again, it clearly shouldn't be all about Armstrong.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:40 AM   #66
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MTH, I don`t think anybody cares if Lance had other mishaps or made other mistakes in Life, I don`t think anybody cares about that, but as a Sportsman, as a Competitor, even if he was the Greatest-Greatest-Greatest ever-ever-ever.....he cheated, and his titles, in the manner the rules are written, if he cheated, he cheated.
Ok, he`s a great guy, a great donnor, a great person, a survivor, a fighter, and a cheater.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:44 AM   #67
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Let's go back years, who is to say that Eddy Merckx was 100% clean when he was the greatest bicyclist in the world, or even Greg Lemond, how about Babe Ruth, or Hank Aaron. How do we know that any of these sports greats were not using some form of a performance enhancing substance when they set and broke records held for years. I agree that all sports need to be competitive on a clean level, I just don't think that the current witch hunt based solely on targeting one person without identifying all parties involved is necessary. These individuals are all adults and made choices to compete with Lance regardless of who was pushing who to dope. Why did they all wait so long to blow the whistle, why didn't come to the surface years ago. They have pulled his titles, so move on and crucify the second and third place competitors who were also doping, if they couldn't detect it with Lance, why do they think that everyone else is clean. I am wondering how many of the US Cycling Governing body representatives have ever competed in the Tour de France or any other multi-day long distance cycling event to see what it does to your body and what it takes to recover. I just say lets move on!
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:45 AM   #68
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By the way, if it becomes so difficult to keep track of this stuff, I guess they can just let everyone use it if they want, I see nothing wrong with Science, Technology, and Human Achievements, if they want to use it, well, I guess they can compete with it, as long as it is equal rules for all. But if the Rules say "No Dopping", and somebody did, clear as water, next...
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:49 AM   #69
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MTH, I don`t think anybody cares if Lance had other mishaps or made other mistakes in Life, I don`t think anybody cares about that, but as a Sportsman, as a Competitor, even if he was the Greatest-Greatest-Greatest ever-ever-ever.....he cheated, and his titles, in the manner the rules are written, if he cheated, he cheated.
Ok, he`s a great guy, a great donnor, a great person, a survivor, a fighter, and a cheater.
Actually . . . my understanding is he's terribly difficult to deal with. Driven and focused to the point of being almost anti-social. At least that's what I've heard.

Whether he's a great person isn't very important to me. My issue is that he cheated, but so apparently did everybody else. The entire era is tainted, not just this guy. And when it's an entire era, how we view those involved is (or should be) different in some ways than when we just bust one guy who cheated amongst others who were playing fair.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:49 AM   #70
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By the way, if it becomes so difficult to keep track of this stuff, I guess they can just let everyone use it if they want, I see nothing wrong with Science, Technology, and Human Achievements, if they want to use it, well, I guess they can compete with it, as long as it is equal rules for all. But if the Rules say "No Dopping", and somebody did, clear as water, next...
I agree with you Johnny, let them all dope, or prosecute them ALL. They have stripped Lance and he will always be know as a cheater, so lets make sure everyone is clean before we all claim the "He did it" status.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:53 AM   #71
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Ironically Lance is being burned at the stake over this, yet we watch pro/college football almost every night of the week. Would we be willing to persecute our favorite teams if this came up?? more than likely not, look what happened to baseball. Every sport has cheaters, and we dont destroy them like Lance is being destroyed. If Jeter was found to be doping, would we take his millions back? would we burn our Jeter t-shirts???
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:53 AM   #72
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I agree with you Johnny, let them all dope, or prosecute them ALL. They have stripped Lance and he will always be know as a cheater, so lets make sure everyone is clean before we all claim the "He did it" status.
Right. You're either in or your out.

If we're going to burn the guy for doping, then let's burn everybody who doped. Here, that means LITERALLY everybody. And let's not forget the governing bodies and everyone else who tacitly allowed it (or worse, encouraged it).

But I have yet to see a single story on CNN to that effect. It's always just about Armstrong and how he's a fraud, a failure, etc.
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:57 AM   #73
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I vote leave the man alone, without the Titles. And leave all the racers alone, without the titles. Now lets go racing !!!!!
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Old 10-30-2012, 02:43 PM   #74
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Shows how much you know about it, he didnt shoot up. He is accused of blood doping, its a whole different issue. And his "In the public eye only" stuff is crap. He didnt have to raise awareness to cancer and raise 29 million last year alone.
What's your excuse for the other hundreds of athletes that do it then? Are they more guilty because they didn't raise money for cancer? From an athlete point of view that's a low blow and disrespectful to every athlete in the world who works hard to achieve what they have achieved. He deserves to be shunned by the sports community and by the company (live strong) that he promoted with the money he won by cheating!!! While I'm happy he have so much to cancer, do you know how much he gained from sponsorships and living a lie? His whole legacy of overcoming testicular cancer to be a great athlete is nothing now, he's just like any other cancer survivor now there is no longer something special about him or what he did. He has spoken to children with cancer telling them you can overcome and do anything, an he WAS CHEATING THE WHOLE TIME!!!! Some role model right. He deserves to have nothing people who lie to only benefit themselves like that are disgusting. He could have started live strong without the titles and cycling. It was a good cause and would have caught on eventually just not as fast. But to endorse something that requires so much fight and hard work to overcome when your a god damn phony cheating dope head??? Doesn't fly in my book
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:21 PM   #75
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MTH, great points. Fine points by all, really.

I certainly concede that he is one of the best natural cyclists in history, if not the best.
I also concede that while recovering and after surviving cancer, steroids of some type are required for anything requiring strength or endurance, meaning if any should have taken it would be him. Thats just the composition of humans.
I am in complete agreement that all involved, including those responsible for ensuring and testing against doping, be held to the fire as well.
No way would he have had any traction whistleblowing, nor recieved any awards for not doping.

I am also deeply concerned over the criminal allegations I brought up earlier, with the Coke, Doctor, Teammate fiasco. If true, that elevates the whole thing and his involvement, and makes what was "bad" into criminal. But thats for his peers to decide, not me.

I have left 3 good jobs, GOOD jobs, because I did not feel the companies operated ethically. How many good, honest men in this world have sacrificed dreams to hold morals? Imo, some things are just more important. None of them got awards, riches, or fame, and that is just fine with them.

Now for clarity, I am no saint. I have done things I shouldn't have, I have done things that are illegal. I've not commited violent crimes, but to my knowledge neither did mr Armstrong. I do not mean to sound holier than anyone, but the decisions I made as a younger feller made me the man I am today. I speak my mind, and try to do what I feel is right. Nohing more to it.

I'm sure there are more points I missed that I would like to make, but I am getting a bit wordy now, so all for now.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:38 PM   #76
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The only reason they're on the witch hunt for Armstrong and Armstrong alone is because an American won their prestigious Tour De France 7 times in a row. Most Americans couldn't care less about the TDF. Even after he won 7 in a row most Americans don't give a crap about the TDF. Sure a lot of us recognize his name and know that he did it...but it's still a very minor event to mainstream America. If it was a French guy that won 7 in a row they never would have scrutinized and drug tested him so much. But an American won their precious Tour De France? Le Gasp! Burn Ze Cheater! Mes culottes sont dans une torsion!
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:40 PM   #77
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Farnham, you're overlooking quite a bit here. This is what I'm talking about--too much snap reaction and not enough critical thinking.

Let's take your comments one-by-one . . .

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What's your excuse for the other hundreds of athletes that do it then? Are they more guilty because they didn't raise money for cancer?
No. The incredible work he's spearheaded for the cancer fight has little to do with the issues I'm raising other than it does build him some good will. To the extent there are issues that could "go either way," he should probably get the benefit of the doubt. But that's about it.

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From an athlete point of view that's a low blow and disrespectful to every athlete in the world who works hard to achieve what they have achieved.
False.

Every other athlete in the world isn't competing in a sport that has a ubiquitous doping culture. At least we hope they're not, and if they are, then they're doping too so he's definitely not disrespecting them.

The report published by the USADA indicates that the vast majority--maybe even all--cyclists who mattered (and presumably many who didn't matter) from that era were dopers.

He was a doper competing among other dopers. That breaks the rules and so on and he should be punished, but it's not "disrespectful" to clean athletes who compete with clean athletes.

The better argument to be honest is that he (and the other cyclists) disrespected the PUBLIC, who watched under the mistaken belief they were watching ordinary humans.

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He deserves to be shunned by the sports community and by the company (live strong) that he promoted with the money he won by cheating!!!
Not really false, but I disagree.

The "shunned by the sports community" part is responded to in my comment above.

The "he won by cheating" part, while technically accurate, misconstrues the facts. Everybody was "cheating." He won the money by being the best.

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While I'm happy he have so much to cancer, do you know how much he gained from sponsorships and living a lie?
To the extent he defrauded anybody such that they have a real legal claim to a return of any money, he should have to pay it back.

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His whole legacy of overcoming testicular cancer to be a great athlete is nothing now, he's just like any other cancer survivor now there is no longer something special about him or what he did.
False.

Are you really arguing that there's nothing special about this guy? Seriously? Do you really believe that if I gave you some EPO you could overcome metastasized cancer and win the Tour de France seven times in a row all while every other important competitor is using the same EPO?? You can't be serious.

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He has spoken to children with cancer telling them you can overcome and do anything, an he WAS CHEATING THE WHOLE TIME!!!! Some role model right.
I agree his status as a role model is in doubt.

He made the wrong choice when faced with the following dilemma: Either (a) engage in widespread behavior he knew was wrong, but obtain great success, or (b) refuse to engage in widespread behavior he knew was wrong, but be just a "regular guy."

In other words, he choose riches over ethics. For that, being a children's role model is probably no longer appropriate.

However, I don't agree that his message of "overcome and do anything" is in doubt.

As to his racing, even assuming he did break the rules, he did in fact compete fairly vis-a-vis his competitors and did in fact achieve amazing things. As to his cancer recovery, he didn't "cheat" or "dope" his way out of cancer, so I can't see what your point is there really.

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He deserves to have nothing people who lie to only benefit themselves like that are disgusting.
This is a tricky one for me.

As I said, he competed fairly among his competitors. Of course, he broke the rules in doing so--as they all did. So I say he deserves to forfeit whatever amounts of old prize money or bonuses other riders of that era are forfeiting. I expect that number will be somewhere around $0. (This highlights the issue I've been hammering on--this shouldn't be "about" Armstrong. It's the ENTIRE SPORT.)

As to his sponsor deals, he held himself out as a "clean" rider, which presumably landed him deals he wouldn't otherwise have gotten. The problem though is determining what he really should give back--what the law calls "damages." Companies don't provides sponsorships just because they're nice folks. If Trek bicycles gave him sponsorship money, they did so because they expected their sales would increase as a result of their affiliation with him by more than the amount they paid him.

For old sponsorship deals that ended long ago, I think it's unfair to pay them back. They made their money back already. Trek for example sold millions of bikes they never would have sold but for Armstrong's endorsement, and it'd be a windfall to them to give back their original payments as well. So I expect claims of fraud and the like from older contracts will likely be foreclosed for this reason (and some others).

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He could have started live strong without the titles and cycling. It was a good cause and would have caught on eventually just not as fast.
True and maybe, respectively. Not sure what the point is though.

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But to endorse something [(cancer recovery)?] that requires so much fight and hard work to overcome when your a god damn phony cheating dope head??? Doesn't fly in my book
Remind me how he is a "phony cheating dope head" with regard to overcoming cancer again? I can't quite see it. Are you saying that the use of EPO by him and hundreds and hundreds of other riders at future Tours de France retroactively overcame his cancer from years before he rode the Tour?
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:06 PM   #78
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MTH, great points. Fine points by all, really.

I certainly concede that he is one of the best natural cyclists in history, if not the best.
I also concede that while recovering and after surviving cancer, steroids of some type are required for anything requiring strength or endurance, meaning if any should have taken it would be him. Thats just the composition of humans.
I am in complete agreement that all involved, including those responsible for ensuring and testing against doping, be held to the fire as well.
No way would he have had any traction whistleblowing, nor recieved any awards for not doping.

I am also deeply concerned over the criminal allegations I brought up earlier, with the Coke, Doctor, Teammate fiasco. If true, that elevates the whole thing and his involvement, and makes what was "bad" into criminal. But thats for his peers to decide, not me.

I have left 3 good jobs, GOOD jobs, because I did not feel the companies operated ethically. How many good, honest men in this world have sacrificed dreams to hold morals? Imo, some things are just more important. None of them got awards, riches, or fame, and that is just fine with them.

Now for clarity, I am no saint. I have done things I shouldn't have, I have done things that are illegal. I've not commited violent crimes, but to my knowledge neither did mr Armstrong. I do not mean to sound holier than anyone, but the decisions I made as a younger feller made me the man I am today. I speak my mind, and try to do what I feel is right. Nohing more to it.

I'm sure there are more points I missed that I would like to make, but I am getting a bit wordy now, so all for now.


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The only reason they're on the witch hunt for Armstrong and Armstrong alone is because an American won their prestigious Tour De France 7 times in a row. . . . . If it was a French guy that won 7 in a row they never would have scrutinized and drug tested him so much. . . . .
There is definitely some of that going on as well. I also think it's very convenient for them to have someone with Armstrong's celebrity to focus on, as it keeps the attention off of their own shortcomings while they clean house. Of course, one could argue that's the risk you take when you break the rules and you can't really complain, but I still find it obnoxious.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:10 PM   #79
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If he is this so strong person and all and has all this mental toughness, why did he cheat? If he was the man he portrayed himself to be, he wouldn't have gave into the peer pressure put on him by everyone else doing it just to win. He beat cancer and its amazing he even got on the bike an that should have been enough. He was greedy and anyone who says he wasn't is oblivious to what being an athlete or even a good human being means. He cheated that's it, it's over and he is receiving the punishment he deserves and will hopefully never recover from it. And your statements about athletes is completely wrong, real athletes who actually care about the sport (and participate in real sports not hobbies) dot just care about themselves like he did. Cycling to me is a huge joke because of this if everyone is a cheater why would anyone want to watch it and everyone should and will be punished for it. This is true for every sport and when someone is accused of steroids or doping they're not viewed the same by fans or teammates. Would you want to play on a team where someone is cheating and taking away from the credit you really deserve? An when they get caught what does that say about you a. And b. your team for allowing it. It makes the team look stupid and makes anything you may have accomplished much less accredited. Lets say baseball for an example, if you are batting behind the steroid user who gets on base all the time and drive him in for an RBI quite often, the stats you got are really void because who knows if without the drugs he would have even got on base? It's a whirlwind of negativity that comes from it and it doesn't matter if everyone was doing it it just doesn't. If lance Armstrong was a real man and a true fighter, he wouldn't have created bottom line. Another prime example of how greed can ruin a persons life legacy and career.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:16 PM   #80
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I have to disagree with some. I am an Aircraft Mechanic. Lets just say, just to illustrate my position, that I use drugs ( which for the record, I DON`T ). Will you let me fix your plane ? Even if I am the very best ever Mechanic on Earth, it`s not ethical to do it if I hold a responsibility for my actions. Lance knew he was an example to others, specially to kids, why in the hell did he mess with that stuff if it was not Ethical, regardless of anything else that we can think of ?????? I think it was more important winning than competing. Now, if he donated every penny he ever earned, to Charity, then I would consider him a Robin Hood !!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:26 PM   #81
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I have to disagree with some. I am an Aircraft Mechanic. Lets just say, just to illustrate my position, that I use drugs ( which for the record, I DON`T ). Will you let me fix your plane ? Even if I am the very best ever Mechanic on Earth, it`s not ethical to do it if I hold a responsibility for my actions. Lance knew he was an example to others, specially to kids, why in the hell did he mess with that stuff if it was not Ethical, regardless of anything else that we can think of ?????? I think it was more important winning than competing. Now, if he donated every penny he ever earned, to Charity, then I would consider him a Robin Hood !!!!!!!!!
Agreed the problem is is that he probably generated personal money from that charity due to endorsements and sponsors from it. It makes me sick to think about al the kids he convinced and tried to lecture about how I won 7 titles and beat cancer. You didn't win $hit lance Armstrong
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:30 PM   #82
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Closer . . . again, comment-by-comment

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If he is this so strong person and all and has all this mental toughness, why did he cheat?
Because his competitors were all elite athletes and they were doping. Just because he's an amazing once-in-a-lifetime athlete doesn't mean he can compete clean and still beat ALMOST amazing once-in-a-lifetime athletes that are heavily doped. Against the rules or not, if he was going to have a chance, he needed a level field.

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If he was the man he portrayed himself to be, he wouldn't have gave into the peer pressure put on him by everyone else doing it just to win.
He didn't do it just to win. He did it to compete fairly with the other dopers. Doping doesn't win--as evidenced by the countless dopers who lost.

His choice was dope and compete, or don't dope and don't compete. That's it. You can criticize which of those routes he chose, but you can't say there were other routes.

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He beat cancer and its amazing he even got on the bike an that should have been enough. He was greedy and anyone who says he wasn't is oblivious to what being an athlete or even a good human being means.
Actually, I think he did it because he's competitive as hell and couldn't stand the idea that anyone had any kind of edge he didn't have. I doubt money had much to do with it. Just a guess though.

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Originally Posted by Farnham21 View Post
He cheated that's it, it's over and he is receiving the punishment he deserves and will hopefully never recover from it.
It's far from over. We have yet to see who will be punished or how. I'm not sure whether a retired athlete "recovers" from something like this.

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And your statements about athletes is completely wrong, real athletes who actually care about the sport (and participate in real sports not hobbies) dot just care about themselves like he did.
So presumably your position is that just about every cyclist from that era was not a "real athlete"? I'm not sure what you mean about caring about the sport rather than just themselves . . . the only related objective metric I can think of is how much a particular athlete "did" for a sport. And of course, Armstrong did a whole hell of a lot for cycling. So I'm not sure how that argument shakes out.

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Cycling to me is a huge joke because of this if everyone is a cheater why would anyone want to watch it and everyone should and will be punished for it.
Everyone should be punished in accord with their culpability. Whether that actually happens remains to be seen. If the current media coverage is any indicator, Armstrong is to be punished and nothing happens to anybody else.

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Originally Posted by Farnham21 View Post
This is true for every sport and when someone is accused of steroids or doping they're not viewed the same by fans or teammates.
What about when everybody is accused of cheating?

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Would you want to play on a team where someone is cheating and taking away from the credit you really deserve?
Only if I got to cheat too . . . which is what was happening.

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Originally Posted by Farnham21 View Post
An when they get caught what does that say about you a. And b. your team for allowing it. It makes the team look stupid and makes anything you may have accomplished much less accredited.
Agreed.

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Lets say baseball for an example, if you are batting behind the steroid user who gets on base all the time and drive him in for an RBI quite often, the stats you got are really void because who knows if without the drugs he would have even got on base?
The difference is in baseball the users were the exception, not the rule.

As a result, Armstrong was competing against other dopers. Taking your baseball analogy, it'd be like you--while on steriods--were batting behind another guy on steriods.

Is either one of you in an ethically superior position? No.

If the other guy still batted better than you, can you really claim that was only due to the steriods? No, you both had the same chemical advantage and he was simply better.

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It's a whirlwind of negativity that comes from it and it doesn't matter if everyone was doing it it just doesn't.
It matters in some very important ways that everyone was doing it. That removes the "unfairness" aspect of doping that fuels so much of the vicious reaction the public has to proof of PED use. It's only "unfair" when just a few people do it.

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If lance Armstrong was a real man and a true fighter, he wouldn't have created bottom line.
Maybe. Like I said, the choice was dope and compete, or don't dope and don't compete. Given how competitive he was, I'm not surprised at the route he took, even if it was ethically wrong.

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Another prime example of how greed can ruin a persons life legacy and career.
Competitiveness maybe. Remember, apparently almost everybody was doping. They're not all millionaries. It's not all about the Benjamins.

And one more from your next post:

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You didn't win $hit lance Armstrong
A little sketchy on this. I agree he can no longer claim he "won" the Tour de France. To make that claim, you have to do it within the rules, which he did not. However, he did cross the line first among a group of folks doping just like he did. He was undoubtedly the best of the time. Not sure that's all "$hit."
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:31 PM   #83
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I have to disagree with some. I am an Aircraft Mechanic. Lets just say, just to illustrate my position, that I use drugs ( which for the record, I DON`T ). Will you let me fix your plane ? Even if I am the very best ever Mechanic on Earth, it`s not ethical to do it if I hold a responsibility for my actions. Lance knew he was an example to others, specially to kids, why in the hell did he mess with that stuff if it was not Ethical, regardless of anything else that we can think of ?????? I think it was more important winning than competing. Now, if he donated every penny he ever earned, to Charity, then I would consider him a Robin Hood !!!!!!!!!
I agree it was unethical.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:43 PM   #84
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I agree it was unethical.
So doping just cause everyone else did isn't?
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:49 PM   #85
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So doping just cause everyone else did isn't?
Que? He never said that made it ethical. The post you even quoted he said it was unethical...

I think you're missing the point. The fact is that only Armstrong is being burned at the stake when the entire sport is filled with witches just as guilty.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:52 PM   #86
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So doping just cause everyone else did isn't?
No, I agree what he did was unethical.

As I've said many times, I'm not suggesting Armstrong was RIGHT or what he did was GOOD.

I'm saying that the media reaction and the effort by the governing bodies to hang this all on him is ridiculous.

He's an incredible athlete that achieved incredible things. However, it turns out that he and his entire sport at the time was harboring an EPICALLY ubiquitous, secret culture of PED use.

The entirety of it needs to be aired out, with Armstrong as a mere piece of an entire sport's problem. It's preposterous to try to hang him for what was really a failing of the entire sport. It was terribly unfair to the competitors that this environment was allowed to grow--again, dope and compete, or don't dope and don't compete. That's tragic. What an awful choice to give a bunch of twenty-somethings who had spent their entire young lives trying to become pro cyclists.

THAT'S what I'm saying. The entire sport needs to look in the mirror and question its ethics. Not just Armstrong. The media (and--shock!!--the sport's governing bodies, who really need to own a lot of this) want this to be about Armstrong, and I just don't see it. He's one guy.

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Que? He never said that made it ethical. The post you even quoted he said it was unethical...

I think you're missing the point. The fact is that only Armstrong is being burned at the stake when the entire sport is filled with witches just as guilty.
Ding ding ding ding ding!!!
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:18 PM   #87
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Raiderfan - I would hope any athelete, race team, or orginization producing records year after year at the most prestigious level are more heavily scrutinized.

Farnham - I really want to see your point of view, and I understand some of it, but I don't understand all the vengence. Why should any man be deprived of livelihood for a past transgression?

Johnnymoto - He has, and then some. Livestrong gave some 28 million $ and change last year to cancer support. Primarily to survivor efforts and awareness, not to an actual cure. I personally do not appreciate the efforts of orginizations to "raise awareness" (through sales) instead of funding research. Take Komen for instance, they sell cosmetics with carcinogens to women and donate a portion to cancer awareness. Wtf is the point in that? I don't know of anything that crazy in Livestrong, but research is better any day than awareness.
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:25 PM   #88
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I wonder how many baseball records would be expunged because of steroid use. It would probably be easier to list which ones were left.
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:27 PM   #89
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I knew somebody would come along with this view eventually.

If we assume everything that's been published by the USADA is true, then the inescapable conclusion is that Armstrong along with every other significant cyclist (and the vast majority of insignificant cyclists) of that era doped.

Indeed, as noted above, at least 20 of the 21 podium finishers from Armstrong's Tours de France have been credibly linked to doping.

That's breaking the rules, but when the scale becomes that large, it's no longer "cheating." Cheating implies an unfair advantage, and if everyone was doing it, that's not what Armstrong had. This wasn't cheating--it was participating in an entire rule breaking culture.

This brings up the moral dilemmas I mentioned earlier, which I assume you fellas have answers to that you plan to share. I say this is principally a failing of the sport's regulatory bodies. A massive, massive failure. What should an athlete coming to pro cycling in 2000 have done? Cycle clean? He'd lose--all of the time. Come to the media or authorities? Some did, but they were shunned and never had any impact. Quit? Good in principle I guess, but it accomplishes nothing besides making you NOT a pro athlete.

The choice was dope and compete, or don't and go away. That's it.

That's the problem when PEDs are allowed to spread unabated. Without any check on their spread, they became a "cost of doing business" as an elite cyclist. Using them wasn't cheating--it was leveling the playing field to compete at all.

My mind could be changed of course. Perhaps Armstrong's doping was "extra special." Maybe he had more doping and better doping than anybody else. If that's the case, then I agree it was unfair. But I don't believe that for a second. All of these teams had sophisticated and expensive doping protocols in place. Cycling may be a niche sport here, but it's huge in Europe. Tens and tens of millions were at stake.

For what it's worth, I haven't heard any cyclist of the era claim that they could've beaten Armstrong had he not been doping. Think about that for a minute. Not only does it say a lot about who else was doping, it also says a lot about just how good Armstrong was. Everybody was doping like crazy, but nobody could beat him.

He's one of the best athletes of probably the last hundred years.

Finally, I note that the robber/little league comment is ridiculous. Armstrong never robbed any banks or committed any violent crime. He participated in a rule breaking culture along with substantially all of the other participants. That's not the same thing. And he didn't coach little leaguers--he spearheaded an epic cancer charity that has set the bar world wide. Again, not the same thing.

I'm fine with him losing his titles. (Note they're not reallocating those titles either--because everybody else was doping too.) I'm just not keen on him being "disgraced." He broke the rules, but he's still the best there's ever been. And I'm not keen in this being "about him"--it's about cycling, and the deeply entrenched, endemic problems it has. Armstrong was a symptom, not a cause. It's too bad he wasn't just starting out now.
EVERY ONE ELSE WAS DOPING???? are you sure that every person that raced in those races was doping? I could not agree with you at all on what you stated here.
BTW......you do realize that people with tons of money HAVE TO look for something to write their money off with (donations)? Armstrong is the worst of the worst in my book, and yes, I am a cancer survivor.
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:39 PM   #90
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so who held on to his pee all this time ????
does he own a jeep

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