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Old 10-14-2008, 07:08 PM   #31
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Our liberal media is a major part of the problem. Not the solution. They think that they are on the par of religion and mission work, but they are sadly mistaken.

Can you say "ROME". Producing nothing and importing everything.
I agree the liberal media has made a joke of this election in my opinion.

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Old 10-14-2008, 07:26 PM   #32
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The media, liberal and conservative, is a major cultural export. It is exposing people to consumer culture, and creating a demand for everything from better diet to healthcare to appliances to education. Iraq was the most educated and westernized of the middle east cultures before we bombed them back to the middle ages.

Elections have been a joke for a long time. We vote with our money when we buy.

I'll put it this way, Hanna Montana is more effective at exporting American values, for better or worse, than defense technology.

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Old 10-14-2008, 07:45 PM   #33
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That would be good, if the message sent matched the beliefs and will of the American people. Too many times the media portrays the will of the minority as if it is the way things are in America. IMHO we are exporting a culture and belief system that is distorted and reflects what sells, rather than what we believe.

You also failed to mention that Iraq was under the control of a madman, who gassed and killed anyone who disagreed with him and his priorites. The influence that he exerted set the stage for the radical muslim groups to set up control and they continue to be a problem. We have spent billions to try and rebuild what we "bombed back to the middle ages" and the liberal media ignores that, to cover stories about how America has screwed up in Iraq. Remember more people have died in Chicago in the last 6 months from murders than soldiers that have been killed in Iraq.
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Old 10-14-2008, 07:54 PM   #34
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That would be good, if the message sent matched the beliefs and will of the American people. Too many times the media portrays the will of the minority as if it is the way things are in America. IMHO we are exporting a culture and belief system that is distorted and reflects what sells, rather than what we believe.
Everyone is a hero in their own mind. I suspect we are not as noble as we imagine ourselves to be. Still, the basic principles of freedom and self governance are noble. What I believe we are experiencing at this moment is capitalism falling to the same fate that destined communism to historic failure—greed and disproportionate distribution of wealth and power.

I suspect most Americans, the majority, have become comfortable and accustomed to living far beyond their means. We don't save, we don't conserve, and we don't push ourselves. This probably is not a flaw in the character of Americans, however. It is most likely a mammalian response to abundance in a general sense. Life may have simply become to easy for us.
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Old 10-14-2008, 07:55 PM   #35
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That would be good, if the message sent matched the beliefs and will of the American people. Too many times the media portrays the will of the minority as if it is the way things are in America. IMHO we are exporting a culture and belief system that is distorted and reflects what sells, rather than what we believe.
BINGO! Thank You.
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:00 PM   #36
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Everyone is a hero in their own mind. I suspect we are not as noble as we imagine ourselves to be. Still, the basic principles of freedom and self governance are noble. What I believe we are experiencing at this moment is capitalism falling to the same fate that destined communism to historic failure—greed and disproportionate distribution of wealth and power.

I suspect most Americans, the majority, have become comfortable and accustomed to living far beyond their means. We don't save, we don't conserve, and we don't push ourselves. This probably is not a flaw in the character of Americans, however. It is most likely a mammalian response to abundance in a general sense. Life may have simply become to easy for us.
I surely can't disagree with you there!!!

So what do we do to correct this???

Take away the incentives for success and spread the wealth through social programs and punishing the wealthy?
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:05 PM   #37
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I surely can't disagree with you there!!!

So what do we do to correct this???

Take away the incentives for success and spread the wealth through social programs and punishing the wealthy?
That sounds like socialism to me.
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:11 PM   #38
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Take away the incentives for success and spread the wealth through social programs and punishing the wealthy?
Well, I'm not going to attempt a serious answer on this forum. No offense. But in general I think we have to simplify and refine the incentives. What are the current stats on the upper percent of the population owning X percent of the wealth? It is the fact that the incentives have been way off base for so long that we are at this juncture.
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:19 PM   #39
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Possibly. But to keep jobs and business from going out of the country, how would you suggest that we operate? If I own a manufacturing company and it is more profitable for me to operate out of Mexico instead of Texas, how would you suggest that you keep me operating in the U.S,?
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:25 PM   #40
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Tax or penalize the living hell out of you to the point that it's cheaper again to operate out of your own country.
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:30 PM   #41
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This is the rub. We have not kept our education level competitive. We can't resort to protectionist policies either. What we have to do is be engaged in shaping globalism and at the same time learn to exploit the indigenous advantages that we do have.

For example, we can't all work in the service industry. Travel to Italy (not a great example of a booming economy, but bear with me). Each geographic area has learned to produce and market and export what is related to the soil or a skill base or something. I think as our economy sinks, we will have to have a rebirth of micro-business. We won't work for GM anymore, but we may produce an internationally recognized Riesling int the Texas hill country, or a saddle, or a suspension system for a Jeep or whatever. We will have to ween off the corporate tit and get back to living instead of driving to work.
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Old 10-14-2008, 08:35 PM   #42
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Sounds good to me.

The corporate politics make me want to puke. Unions were good when they began but as with any institution, over time abuse and poitics have taken over.

I would love to go back to the bartering system.
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Old 10-14-2008, 09:49 PM   #43
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This is the rub. We have not kept our education level competitive. We can't resort to protectionist policies either. What we have to do is be engaged in shaping globalism and at the same time learn to exploit the indigenous advantages that we do have.

For example, we can't all work in the service industry. Travel to Italy (not a great example of a booming economy, but bear with me). Each geographic area has learned to produce and market and export what is related to the soil or a skill base or something. I think as our economy sinks, we will have to have a rebirth of micro-business. We won't work for GM anymore, but we may produce an internationally recognized Riesling int the Texas hill country, or a saddle, or a suspension system for a Jeep or whatever. We will have to ween off the corporate tit and get back to living instead of driving to work.
Thats all well and good, I build computer systems and networks, on the network side I can complete with anybody on a small scale, I can underbid anyone who has a large payroll, we're family with 4 people, on the systems side I can't compete with the HP, Dells, etc who build in mex and ship up here. Then you have a big company like Bestbuy that practically GIVES their on site service away when you buy one of their products. I'm still trying to find ways around that, as it is I have a select client base that buys high end gaming systems, audio and video systems but that market is limited. If wasn't for the people that know me dropping systems off for repair in the front seat of one of my jeeps when I'm not home in my shop I'd starve.
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Old 10-14-2008, 10:22 PM   #44
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...... Iraq was the most educated and westernized of the middle east cultures before we bombed them back to the middle ages.
All joking aside, you make a very strong statement here. Can you cite credible references to back it up?

One of the problems I have with people coming to a social network and spouting their own (confrontational) politics is that they have a tendency to make up all sorts of crap in an attempt to prove their points. I'm not accusing you of doing that, but I can't find any credible reference that backs up your statement. So.....

(Oh, by the way, just so we are clear on the concept, Blogs are not credible references. You go regurgitating unfounded garbage from blogs and you’re just another lemming in my book.)
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:08 AM   #45
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All joking aside, you make a very strong statement here. Can you cite credible references to back it up?
Without naming names, I base this in part on conversations I've had with a professor that is engaged in reclaiming art that was looted during the instability associated with our advanced on Baghdad. She was assembling a book to accompany a traveling exhibition of Iraqi book arts. As I began working on the book, I was given several essays by Iraqi historians and curators. This was a common theme, that I have also heard echoed elsewhere. Her basic point is that Iraq has a strong history of very solid education, and she and her peers have a very sense of having seen this erode because of sanctions and regional wars. Now clearly recently deposed leadership, and regional wars play a part, but the loss of cultural institutions is considered a sort of "final straw". You can bring in textbooks, but when the educated citizens have fled, and there is no museum system, or arts, etc.

Anyway, here's a link to the wiki that covers a basic history of the education system.

Education in Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know it is just a wiki, but I suspect its figures are fairly sound.
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:30 AM   #46
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Thats all well and good, I build computer systems and networks, on the network side I can complete with anybody on a small scale, I can underbid anyone who has a large payroll, we're family with 4 people, on the systems side I can't compete with the HP, Dells, etc who build in mex and ship up here. Then you have a big company like Bestbuy that practically GIVES their on site service away when you buy one of their products. I'm still trying to find ways around that, as it is I have a select client base that buys high end gaming systems, audio and video systems but that market is limited. If wasn't for the people that know me dropping systems off for repair in the front seat of one of my jeeps when I'm not home in my shop I'd starve.
Sadly, transitions like the one we are in include job dislocation on a grand scale. Economies of scale will endure on an international level.

In your situation there are two possibilities. A.) People will choose to support you because they understand the politics of where they spend their money, and, B.) You offer something that Best Buy and other competitors can't.

Unfortunately, people still flock to WalMart as if this race to the bottom was an issue of pride.

I for one always try and engage a local small shop. Just dropped my 15 year old amp off for a new set of tubes. One thing, as a generalization, that I do encounter often is that the small local shop can be hostile and weird. People can become trapped in small businesses and become resentful. Service can be dreadful and rude. It takes work and effort to place money with local artisans and skilled people. Most people don't have or take the time.

My original point was that small business has to think in terms of producing an international product. Parma ham, Regiano parmesan. If you produce the very best parmesan because you had figured out over generations how to handle the cattle/milk, then feed the rinds to the pigs the world comes to your door and you have a regional brand. There is a link that starts with stock feed and is carried through to multiple products that can't be reproduced.

The question is, what can we do that could have international demand and couldn't be reproduced or replicated and can't be shipped off in terms of labor to the poorest country de jour.
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Old 10-15-2008, 11:07 AM   #47
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Without naming names, I base this in part on conversations I've had .......
... here's a link to the wiki that covers a basic history of the education system.
I don't have much time this morning to respond so I'll keep it brief:

1) Wikipedia is not a credible source. (I have multiple entries in wikipedia that I built solely to prove that point. They look rather good and seem to be accurate enough, but they are total BS. )

2) The evidence you offer is purely anecdotal... No documented facts, nothing published in peer-reviewed journals, no studies cited, nothing that would convince me that it is real other than your word. Frankly, that's not worth much.

You want to come here and argue your opinion, that's fine, but state it as such. Don't go making statements like they are facts when it's just your opinion.
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Old 10-15-2008, 01:34 PM   #48
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Actually, I have five well documented scholarly essays, based on papers that were peer reviewed. I do not, however, have the authors permission to post those essays, nor do I want google searches for those authors names to link to a Wrangler forum. If you want to understand the situation then you can follow up on the wiki information. If you look for much information on this issue you will quickly discover that it is in the process of being documented, so scholarly peer-reviewed papers are about all that you get.

Jaffe Center for Book Arts

Follow this link, and you can, for $25 obtain a catalog that will contain the essays and footnotes to referenced scholarly papers. I was handling the essays in a preliminary form and I can make no promises as to the content contained in the final catalog.

For the record, forums like this are full of opinions that are not explicitly labeled opinions. Your point is foolish, in my opinion. It is not my job to educate you, although I've gone a long way down this path. I suggest you satisfy your own curiosity and not rely on forum posts. If you read a statement that sits sideways, look into it yourself for your own betterment.

Also, please follow the link at the bottom of the Wiki

http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-U...CTION=201.html
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:22 PM   #49
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The question is, what can we do that could have international demand and couldn't be reproduced or replicated and can't be shipped off in terms of labor to the poorest country de jour.

Answer: Military hardware. We build some of the best military supplies in the world.
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:34 PM   #50
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If you want to change your country you need to start by changing yourself. Most of our problems are created by ourselves. People don't look at the big picture and greed and stupidity always take over. If you think small businesses failing in your community is bad, then maybe you should stop giving all your money to Walmart. If you're complaining about the lack of justice in America, but always find a way to get out of jury duty, that's your fault too. If you don't think jobs getting exported is good, stop buying all that foriegn crap. See a pattern here! In a capitalist economy businesses gives the people what they want. The banks gave bad loans to people with bad credit and $0 down because the people, through our representatives, told the banks it's racist to not loan money to poor people in the getto to buy a house too. We all act like someone else created these problems. Evaluate the decissions you make in your life and spending within the BIG picture. If enough of us do that only then will true CHANGE come.
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Old 10-15-2008, 02:40 PM   #51
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If you want to change your country you need to start by changing yourself. Most of our problems are created by ourselves. People don't look at the big picture and greed and stupidity always take over. If you think small businesses failing in your community is bad, then maybe you should stop giving all your money to Walmart. If you're complaining about the lack of justice in America, but always find a way to get out of jury duty, that's your fault too. If you don't think jobs getting exported is good, stop buying all that foriegn crap. See a pattern here! In a capitalist economy businesses gives the people what they want. The banks gave bad loans to people with bad credit and $0 down because the people, through our representatives, told the banks it's racist to not loan money to poor people in the getto to buy a house too. We all act like someone else created these problems. Evaluate the decissions you make in your life and spending within the BIG picture. If enough of us do that only then will true CHANGE come.
Amen ...spend it where you make it. If you can't afford it, don't buy it either.
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:02 PM   #52
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If you want to change your country you need to start by changing yourself. Most of our problems are created by ourselves. People don't look at the big picture and greed and stupidity always take over. If you think small businesses failing in your community is bad, then maybe you should stop giving all your money to Walmart. If you're complaining about the lack of justice in America, but always find a way to get out of jury duty, that's your fault too. If you don't think jobs getting exported is good, stop buying all that foriegn crap. See a pattern here! In a capitalist economy businesses gives the people what they want. The banks gave bad loans to people with bad credit and $0 down because the people, through our representatives, told the banks it's racist to not loan money to poor people in the getto to buy a house too. We all act like someone else created these problems. Evaluate the decissions you make in your life and spending within the BIG picture. If enough of us do that only then will true CHANGE come.


Very true, well said
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Old 10-15-2008, 05:37 PM   #53
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If you want to change your country you need to start by changing yourself. Most of our problems are created by ourselves. People don't look at the big picture and greed and stupidity always take over. If you think small businesses failing in your community is bad, then maybe you should stop giving all your money to Walmart. If you're complaining about the lack of justice in America, but always find a way to get out of jury duty, that's your fault too. If you don't think jobs getting exported is good, stop buying all that foriegn crap. See a pattern here! In a capitalist economy businesses gives the people what they want. The banks gave bad loans to people with bad credit and $0 down because the people, through our representatives, told the banks it's racist to not loan money to poor people in the getto to buy a house too. We all act like someone else created these problems. Evaluate the decissions you make in your life and spending within the BIG picture. If enough of us do that only then will true CHANGE come.
Only problem I see with that reasoning is that those of us who have been responsible enough to save and buy locally are now paying for the policies that our government imposed that cancelled out our due dilligence. How the hell are you going to tell me to do a better job of buying locally and supporting American companies, when I have been doing that, and STILL get my ass handed to me because of the policies that our government approves?
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Old 10-15-2008, 05:59 PM   #54
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Only problem I see with that reasoning is that those of us who have been responsible enough to save and buy locally are now paying for the policies that our government imposed that cancelled out our due dilligence. How the hell are you going to tell me to do a better job of buying locally and supporting American companies, when I have been doing that, and STILL get my ass handed to me because of the policies that our government approves?

Problem is Dare, you're part of the solution, but part won't cut it. Everyone has to do it. And as much as I LOVE what Joe said, I know there's too many people who would rather head over to Walmart and purchase which ever product catches their eye, China or America. Doesn't matter.
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Old 10-15-2008, 06:37 PM   #55
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Only problem I see with that reasoning is that those of us who have been responsible enough to save and buy locally are now paying for the policies that our government imposed that cancelled out our due dilligence. How the hell are you going to tell me to do a better job of buying locally and supporting American companies, when I have been doing that, and STILL get my ass handed to me because of the policies that our government approves?
I know this sounds crazy, but I had a good friend in school that always said "it is all aesthetics". What he meant was that we are on a big ship and we can't separate ourselves from the fate of the group, even if we do things right. Therefore, the act of doing things right is ultimately so that life feels better—not so desperate and stupid. Problem is, the more refined and integrated you become the more you are separated from your peers.
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Old 10-15-2008, 06:39 PM   #56
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Actually, I have five well documented scholarly essays, based on papers that were peer reviewed. I do not, however, have the authors permission to post those essays, nor do I want google searches for those authors names to link to a Wrangler forum.
So to summarize: You are in possession of documentation that backs up your argument, you are just not willing to share it. I'm expected to take your word for it.

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If you want to understand the situation then you can follow up on the wiki information. If you look for much information on this issue you will quickly discover that it is in the process of being documented, so scholarly peer-reviewed papers are about all that you get.
The fact of the mater is that it is not well documented, other than on non-reliable sources. There are no available studies, peer reviewed or otherwise, to back up your assertions. The UNESCO web site has a history of being biased and not a reliable source of information. Scholarly peer-reviewed papers would be wonderful, however, there are none in any of the multiple online libraries that I have access to.


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Jaffe Center for Book Arts

Follow this link, and you can, for $25 obtain a catalog that will contain the essays and footnotes to referenced scholarly papers. I was handling the essays in a preliminary form and I can make no promises as to the content contained in the final catalog.
Um.... Ok. I'll buy the book, but I doubt that it will contain anything.

A quote from linked page: "There are books of poems and disturbing works which chronicle the last tragic years of Iraqi history: the Saddam years, the effect of sanctions during the 1990s, and after 2003, the continuing human suffering, and the physical destruction of the places which contain the tangible roots of Iraqi identity and culture."

Seems to me that the problem with their system started well before "we bombed them back to the middle ages"

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For the record, forums like this are full of opinions that are not explicitly labeled opinions.
True, but you are making statements that imply facts. Re-read your posts in this thread.

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Your point is foolish, in my opinion.
Your opinion is foolish, that is my point...

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It is not my job to educate you, although I've gone a long way down this path.
True, it is not your job to educate me (I pay a lot of money for that). However, you assumption that you have done anything to educate me is arrogant. You have provided nothing but your opinion and "facts" that cannot be authenticated. The only education you have provided is about who you are, nothing more.

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I suggest you satisfy your own curiosity and not rely on forum posts. If you read a statement that sits sideways, look into it yourself for your own betterment.
I never view forum posts as anything but entertainment and a possible source of information. One thing I've learned is to never trust completely the statements of a single person unless they have a proven track record. I research the heck out of everything, often to a fault.

I thought the statement you made about education and westernization was a very interesting one, so I started researching it. When I found nothing to back it up, I challenged you to provide a reference. You could not. I never meant for this to be an antagonistic exchange, you are the one who made it such.

//Peace
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Old 10-15-2008, 06:57 PM   #57
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The book, in the form I was involved with it, is fully footnoted and documented. Do what you will.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/HAS505B.html
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Old 10-15-2008, 08:47 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by tiny terror View Post
Problem is Dare, you're part of the solution, but part won't cut it. Everyone has to do it. And as much as I LOVE what Joe said, I know there's too many people who would rather head over to Walmart and purchase which ever product catches their eye, China or America. Doesn't matter.
Guilty in part, you can't beat walmarts price on 5 quart containers of Mobil-1 high mileage oil, Mobil-1 filters, Remington and Federal .22's, Federal 12ga, thats about it.
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Old 10-15-2008, 10:35 PM   #59
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As a resident of the home state of Wal-Mart, I hate those bustards. I would rather do business anywhere but there.
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Old 10-15-2008, 11:27 PM   #60
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The Centre for Research on Globalisation? The tin hat people? The same ones who published and support the theory that 9/11 was orchestrated and carried out by the US government? This is a joke right?

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